Detroit's Underground Creeks and Streams

[SWMAP]

A few years ago the Detroiters who proposed the Adamah project, an agricultural project, made the uncovering of creeks on the east Side, such as Conner's creek, a key component of the project.

A lot of people were mystified about how it would work and if it would work.

Today's NYT has an article about the concept, and identifies several U.S. and world cities that are doing that very thing - uncovering long-paved-over waterways:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/17/wo...html?ref=world

[DetroitPlanner]

K-zoo is doing this through their downtown. San Antonio actually built canals for the riverwalk and just expanded them. It has been a very successful tool for community and economic development. The more waterfront property the better off a community is.

[gazhekwe]

The Riverwalk in San Antonio is just beautiful. There is some kind of floodgate to control how much water can get in, as the river can flood. In addition to a bustling retail and restaurant area, there are barge rides down the river.

There are riverfront developments in other communities as well, Lansing along the Red Cedar has some, with the walkway and museums, and proximity to the Farmers Market. Here we probably need to concentrate on the Detroit River for retail development first.

If we opened up some of the riverways in Detroit, greenways might be a good start, with parks and walkways. Conner Creek might be a good one, as a fairly large waterway. There is one along Mark Twain on the west side, and many more.

I visited the Museum of the American Indian in DC. One of the southwestern tribes had showcased their river development project. It was primarily meant to bring water to the arid lands by management of an existing dry riverbed. They went in and rebuilt historic water diverters and retainers, and indeed, they did succeed in getting the river to run again. The banks were then developed to a green space with native plants and pathways, as well as irrigation for crops placed along the way.

[gnome]

I'd love to see the Savoyard uncovered through downtown with covered bridges and rope swing. Nothing quite like crossing a creek on a rope swing ... or better yet by pole.

For years there has been talk of uncovering the Clinton River in Pontiac. Can't say I can see that plan coming together any time soon.

[Savoyard]

Believe me, no one would like to see the Savoyard River uncovered than I! But unfortunately, the original /Savoyard became an open sewer somewhere in the 1800s, and was bricked in around that time. As Detroit grew, the land was more important than an open sewer. I was lucky enough to tour [[about 10 years ago) the bricked in version of Savoyard. It's still there, with an entrance around Congress and Washington. Still remarkable, but you'd have to disrupt Congress, Washington Blvd. and much of Jefferson to uncover it. Still an intriguing idea ...

[sumas]

There has been some talk regarding "daylighting" Connor Creek which was orginally called Tromblay Creek. Tromblay Creek because the Tromblay family [[various spellings of the name existed) operated a major windmill at the mouth of the Detroit River.

An odd thing that happened to me was when we lived in GPP. We had a deep back yard and a paved alley. Our bedroom over looked the back of the house. At night while asleep, I would dream frequently that the alley was a canal or river. Much to my surprise, years later, I discovered that my alley was a covered tributary of Fox Creek which connected to the Milk River. I just wonder how I knew?

My question about exposing old creeks and tributaries is I thought most if not all were used to create the existing sewage system. If that is the case, then why open up sewers?

[gibran]

as a young kid before they developed a huge system under Britain Street there was remnants of a small creek running towards Denby...if I wasn't dreaming...I vaguely remember a neighbor who lived on the of Wayburn and Britain say they had a creek running in their backyard when they moved in...in the forties...into the fifties...I looked at an old plat map once and saw a creek that was covered that was near Denby...since this was a long time ago it is very vague...

but having lived in Detroit, San Antonio and Austin ...Las Colinas and other cities with rivers it makes a city so much more inviting for biking an walking when there is green belts running near water...

eventually we will redesign Detroit to attract green development if we want to make it a city where diversity is celebrated and people of all backgrounds come home instead of development going further out...maybe if we committed to green belts, streams and balanced green corridors people would re-invest in the city as a whole...schools and business should jump on these imaginative concepts...teaching ecology and service related projects help kids have pride where they live. .. and water projects are great places for softening tough cities.

[gumby]

The City of Flint just recently did this exact thing with the restoration of Gilkey Creek running through the campus of Mott Community College. It looks great now that it is done.

http://blog.mlive.com/flintjournal/newsnow/2007/09/gilkey_creek_project_could_bec.html

http://blog.mlive.com/get-healthy-in..._proves_u.html

http://www.allbusiness.com/environme...1915121-1.html

[Irvine Laird]

Pontiac's master plan calls for "uncapping" the Clinton River. Metromode ran a story about this back in May: http://www.metromode.com/devnews/cli...8-1d38b1b5f8cd

A major component of that plan calls for eliminating "The Loop" around downtown--a physical and psychological barrier between neighborhoods and Pontiac's central business district. The Clinton River and riverwalk would replace Wide Trac east of downtown. Wide Trac to the west would become a two-way Woodward Avenue extension.

A nice idea, but the city cannot afford to pay its own employees, let alone tackle the $50 million or more it would take to make it happen.

[RickBeall]

This is a fascinating topic. Some of the old covered creeks and rivers might be used now and underground sewers. For those, we would have to build a new sewer too and stop dumping stuff into the old covered creek. That sounds pretty expensive. Hopefully, for some of these projects that would not be necessary.

But imagine the combination of the controversal organized tearing down of neighborhoods and the resurgence of some old creeks. It could make the property really valuable.

[Patrick]

How did they go about "covering" these creeks? Did they fill them in or just place a cap over them?

[Savoyard]

I know in the case of the old Savoyard River, first the sides were lined with brick walls. Then they built brick vaulted ceilings over it, with the ends of the ceilings resting on the walls. It's the identical technique used to build parts of Fort Wayne. End result looks like old sewers in NYC and Paris. I was told that many of the workmen hired to build Ft. Wayne built the Savoyard system. That would place it around 1840-60.

[Sludgedaddy]

Connor Creek flowed through what is now Mt. Olivet Cemetery and now flows underground under the City Airport.

In the cemetery there are what looks like foot bridges over what was once a surface flowing stream and a depression that looks like it once held a small lake or pond. Anyone with info concerning the existence of such a body of water ,since I'm speculating based on topography of the area in the cemetery just west of Connor in the older section of said cemetery ?

[RickBeall]

I read on the Catholic church web site, "SWEETEST HEART OF MARY", that that was Conner creek. Also, the rolling hillside in the cemetary is representatiave of what all Wayne county around inside Detroit was like. The site said that it took a generation of laborers to level the land so it looks like it does today.

[texorama]

Even the north end of Kalamazoo's downtown looks a good deal better than it did a few years ago, with the streamside development a major reason.

[MIRepublic]

Question, where any of the creeks in Detroit covered over because of flooding, or were they all covered so as to reduce the cost of digging new sewers? It's definitely something that'd need to be researched before any of them were uncovered and renaturalized.

I know that the Grand River through downtown Jackson used to be hell for the residents before they covered it because of its frequent floods.

I'd always wished Detroit would have kept as much of its old topography as was feasible, but it seems like the entire bowl the city sits in is artificial. Up in Toronto, they largely built the city around nature instead of trying to conquer it, completely. To this day, Toronto's natural ravines are a huge addition to the quality of life in that city.

[Huggybear]

I'd love to see the Savoyard uncovered through downtown with covered bridges and rope swing. Nothing quite like crossing a creek on a rope swing ... or better yet by pole.

Let's write Mountain Dew commercials out of the Michigan film tax credit program.

[douglasm]

Some of this has been going on in the Seattle area, taking creeks and opening them back up. It became a topic of interest around Puget Sound due to the decline of Salmon runs because of a lack of spawning areas as creeks and rivers that at one time were habitat got paved over......

[Patrick]

so they brick the sides and vault the top....what do they rest the walls on? Cant just lay bricks on mud right?

[reddog289]

I myself had often thought of the streams,creeks,and drains around here before they built up the area.At onetime an open drain ran behind where my garage now sits.Now that my garage and my tomato/pepper garden is by where the drain was I myself wonder the "What IF".

[SWMAP]

For those who may never have seen the idea as it was first advanced several years ago, go here [[the Metro Times) to read about ADAMAH:
http://metrotimes.com/editorial/story.asp?id=2625

[Supersport]

[quote=sumas;45571]An odd thing that happened to me was when we lived in GPP. We had a deep back yard and a paved alley. Our bedroom over looked the back of the house. At night while asleep, I would dream frequently that the alley was a canal or river. Much to my surprise, years later, I discovered that my alley was a covered tributary of Fox Creek which connected to the Milk River. I just wonder how I knew?quote]

I think the answer has been right there in front of you for years. You are obviously the missing link to the Psychic Friends Network.

[Retroit]

Detroit actually does have a stream that can be viewed in its nearly undisturbed state: Parent's Creek [[also named Bloody Run after a Indian attack that took place there) can be viewed in Elmwood Cemetery. It is not very big in terms of water flow and not very much is exposed [[maybe a few hundred feet), but what is most surprising is the depth of the valley leading to it in relation to the surrounding terrain. It is quite beautiful [[if a cemetery can be considered so!) and one of Detroit's hidden treasures.

I would love to see more streams uncovered, but I doubt any would be as large as San Antonio [[which is natural, by the way, although the flood bypass is man-made). My biggest concern would be mosquitoes. If the streams do not have enough flow throughout the summer, the standing water will be breeding grounds for them. Another concern would be the depth of the stream beneath the surrounding terrain, and how much land would have to be cleared to create a bank that is shallow enough, and the bridges that would have to be built.

The streams were covered because they were frequently used as sanitation sewers, which smell, of course. The streams provided drainage, and when they were covered over, they were deepened/enlarged to help in the drainage. The walls, which were either stone or brick, rested on brick foundations. In the case of Savoyard Creek, the walls were originally made of wood timbers from Fort Shelby.

The Connor Creek sewer which runs under a taxiway at City Airport gave way about 15 years ago and attempted to swallow a small twin-engine plane that was taxiing above it. That occurred just beyond the northern tip of Gethsemane Cemetery, Sludgedaddy.

[gibran]

I find it very interesting in a good way..the two threads on natural waters and red foxes...if you were to design a city knowing what we now know wouldn't you have lots of green spaces...and natural waters....if only ...

But, every city that I have lived in that has creeks and streams...have higher quality of trails and outdoor usages...if we made the cities greener, with trails and parks..we could attract residents that don't use a tank of gas to come into their jobs..bikes etc..then you would have a newer tax base to fix the schools which would help decrease crime..but that would take all working together ...

Green-ways and housing would be one way to revitalize targeted areas along with restoration of historic districts...the city can revitalize itself if the powers that be are really interested in creating a diverse and friendly city...

[Patrick]

A lot of people think that the Battle of Bloody Run took place IN Elmwood, but it was actially many yards closer to the River. I am not sure if Jefferson runs along the same pathway as in the 1700s though.