Plans Moving Forward for Hudson Site Redevelopment

[mikeg19]

There is zero demand for this. 30 stories? Not only are you all very good at spending someone else's money but I'm wondering if you've thought about where he's going to find tenants for those floors? Robbing Peter to pay Paul. Oh I know, make it a hotel--because Detroit is such a booming vacation draw! I will be shocked if anything is there within 5 years. And the amount of care I have in a building that may be built in Detroit in 5 years is non existent. And I no zero idea why the average Detroiter would care about this when there are literally 1,000 other more important things that need your attention. Stop being suckers for the smoke and mirrors BS.

Actually it would seem that there is a fairly substantial demand for this. When you have 8, 10, 12 month wait lists to live in downtown & midtown, I'd say that's a fair measuring stick on what people want and is achievable. A 18-20 story building is most likely appropriate for the site. 30 Would be quite ambitious I'd think, and I'm not sold on the extra hotel space seeing as we have another hotel opening in the David Whitney shortly. I don't think were going to be seeing any 55 story towers being erected anytime soon, but growth is happening, and eventually buildings to rehab are going to run-out in downtown and midtown. Do you think Illitch would build a new entertainment, retail, sports, hotel, office complex for $650M if he didn't think there would be a return on investment? I doubt it. Gilbert knows what he's doing, and he has a track record. Until something blows up in his face, I'll continue to believe what he says.

[rb336]

mikeg19 wins the award for "most good points in one paragraph"

[KOMPOST]

There is zero demand for this. 30 stories? Not only are you all very good at spending someone else's money but I'm wondering if you've thought about where he's going to find tenants for those floors? Robbing Peter to pay Paul. Oh I know, make it a hotel--because Detroit is such a booming vacation draw! I will be shocked if anything is there within 5 years. And the amount of care I have in a building that may be built in Detroit in 5 years is non existent. And I no zero idea why the average Detroiter would care about this when there are literally 1,000 other more important things that need your attention. Stop being suckers for the smoke and mirrors BS.

Yes, your level of care for anything positive in the city of Detroit is well-documented here.
Which makes this such a curious site for you to spend so much of your time.

[bailey]

Actually it would seem that there is a fairly substantial demand for this. When you have 8, 10, 12 month wait lists to live in downtown & midtown, I'd say that's a fair measuring stick on what people want and is achievable. A 18-20 story building is most likely appropriate for the site. 30 Would be quite ambitious I'd think, and I'm not sold on the extra hotel space seeing as we have another hotel opening in the David Whitney shortly. I don't think were going to be seeing any 55 story towers being erected anytime soon, but growth is happening, and eventually buildings to rehab are going to run-out in downtown and midtown. Do you think Illitch would build a new entertainment, retail, sports, hotel, office complex for $650M if he didn't think there would be a return on investment? I doubt it. Gilbert knows what he's doing, and he has a track record. Until something blows up in his face, I'll continue to believe what he says.

I'm with you with everything but the illitch issue. He thinks 650 million is a good investment if the tax payer helps foot the bill.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

There is zero demand for this. 30 stories? Not only are you all very good at spending someone else's money but I'm wondering if you've thought about where he's going to find tenants for those floors? Robbing Peter to pay Paul. Oh I know, make it a hotel--because Detroit is such a booming vacation draw! I will be shocked if anything is there within 5 years. And the amount of care I have in a building that may be built in Detroit in 5 years is non existent. And I no zero idea why the average Detroiter would care about this when there are literally 1,000 other more important things that need your attention. Stop being suckers for the smoke and mirrors BS.

You'd better alert Mr. Gilbert to this fact. I assume your business success is far superior to his, and he'd value your input.

[Gistok]

There is zero demand for this. 30 stories? Not only are you all very good at spending someone else's money but I'm wondering if you've thought about where he's going to find tenants for those floors? Robbing Peter to pay Paul. Oh I know, make it a hotel--because Detroit is such a booming vacation draw! I will be shocked if anything is there within 5 years. And the amount of care I have in a building that may be built in Detroit in 5 years is non existent. And I no zero idea why the average Detroiter would care about this when there are literally 1,000 other more important things that need your attention. Stop being suckers for the smoke and mirrors BS.

We used to have a poster on this forum by the name of just BRIAN... many years ago that would go on about how foolish everyone was for thinking that anything would ever be done with the existing Book Cadillac and Fort Shelby Hotels. He was incessant that we were all wasting our time even discussing this, because nothing would EVER come of it. Funny thing is both buildings WERE redeveloped... and poor exasperated BRIAN stopped posting here because he put so much stock into the fact that he was right, and everyone else was wrong. Haven't heard from Brian since they reopened those hotels.... Are you back Brian??

[Bham1982]

Seeing that this is a Dan Gilbert project I doubt it will be very heavily subsidized.
also I would trust billionaires know something about business , so I believe they have faith in Detroit or they wouldn't be doing this

Given that Dan Gilbert hasn't built anything downtown, and all his job moves have been very heavily subsidized, what would make you think he wouldn't request subsidies?

And, no, I wouldn't blindly "trust" folks just because they're rich businessmen. You never heard of the '09 economic meltdown? Just because someone made money in one competency doesn't mean they understand making money in all competencies.

[Bham1982]

Actually it would seem that there is a fairly substantial demand for this. When you have 8, 10, 12 month wait lists to live in downtown & midtown, I'd say that's a fair measuring stick on what people want and is achievable.

Why do people just make up this stuff?

There is no "wait" to move downtown. There's plenty of housing available, though I'm sure that won't stop local govts from subsidizing more.

I could find you a cheap downtown apartment in 30 seconds on the internet. Want a link?

[rb336]

Why do people just make up this stuff?

There is no "wait" to move downtown. There's plenty of housing available, though I'm sure that won't stop local govts from subsidizing more.

I could find you a cheap downtown apartment in 30 seconds on the internet. Want a link?

yes, please

[stasu1213]

[QUOTE=Bham1982;4
12460]Given that Dan Gilbert hasn't built anything downtown, and all his job moves have been very heavily subsidized, what would make you think he wouldn't request subsidies?

And, no, I wouldn't blindly "trust" folks just because they're rich businessmen. You never heard of the '09 economic meltdown? Just because someone made money in one competency doesn't mean they understand making money in all competencies.[/Q
I had felt the same way a few yrs back. I didnt think that downtown should be owned by one entity. Northern Group had tried and was unsucessful. Dan Gilbert is renovating the buildings he had purchased. They wont be left dillapidated if his companies folds

[Scottathew]

Why do people just make up this stuff?

There is no "wait" to move downtown. There's plenty of housing available, though I'm sure that won't stop local govts from subsidizing more.

I could find you a cheap downtown apartment in 30 seconds on the internet. Want a link?

My friends that live downtown all say their rents are going up substantially. I would infer that this is because demand is high, but supply has remained unchanged.

Gilbert and others have moved 10's of thousands of jobs downtown, that is going to change the apartment market downtown. Granted not many of those people want to live down there, but I know many young folks that do.

[rb336]

At apartments.com, there were 5 listings. Prices have gone WAY up since I last checked

[michimoby]

I see dozens of available rental units in Midtown/Downtown/Corktown on Craigslist, rb.

I think the big question that remains unanswered is the stickiness of downtown residents. I know several individuals that made the move downtown and, after a year, are choosing to move back out to the suburbs. They haven't found it worth the additional money or [[in some cases) inconvenience. That happens everywhere, but we need not forget that there's still an outflow of population from the city center.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

That happens everywhere, but we need not forget that there's still an outflow of population from the city center.

While I don't have stats handy, Michimoby, I would bet good money that downtown/midtown have a strong net influx of residents. Undoubtedly there are more people living downtown than there were a year ago, or anytime in the last many years. Yes, there are more units. But, damn, there are just more people downtown. When I used to come back to visit, I would sometimes spend a night or 2 downtown before going to stay with relatives. In the evening, when there wasn't a game, I would walk around all alone downtown. That is not the case now.

I realize some people don't stay downtown, but that's not bad. Urban living isn't for everyone, or for everyone's whole life. Most of the people moving downtown are younger people [[I would say under 40). People in that bracket are still settling into lives and careers. When jobs and relationships and personal goals change, sometimes where you want to live does, too. Also, prices have gone up. When I started eyeing moving back in 2008/9, I was often checking apartment prices. Let me tell you: the same units are now hundreds of dollars more a month. They wouldn't be in there was a higher vacancy rate now.

[downtownguy]

Given that Dan Gilbert hasn't built anything downtown...

I guess the "Z" parking structure is just a mirage? Not to mention the amount of "building" that goes on inside the buildings he's bought.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

I guess the "Z" parking structure is just a mirage? Not to mention the amount of "building" that goes on inside the buildings he's bought.

Perhaps the "Z" isn't visible from way up in Birmingham, which of course is the center of the entire metro Detroit area.

It's been so much better for the city to have Gilbert buying, renovating, and filling up the existing stock of buildings before turning to new construction anyway.

[hortonz]

Now if only Dan Gilbert could do something about that ugly parking lot on the corner of Pitt and Ouellette in downtown Windsor that was once home to Windsor's flagship department store Smith's.

[stasu1213]

I see dozens of available rental units in Midtown/Downtown/Corktown on Craigslist, rb.

I think the big question that remains unanswered is the stickiness of downtown residents. I know several individuals that made the move downtown and, after a year, are choosing to move back out to the suburbs. They haven't found it worth the additional money or [[in some cases) inconvenience. That happens everywhere, but we need not forget that there's still an outflow of population from the city center.

Hopefully the Duggan administration would build up the neighborhoods so that downtown residents would move into them when they want to raise their families in homes instead of lofts and apartments

[Spartan]

I see dozens of available rental units in Midtown/Downtown/Corktown on Craigslist, rb.

I think the big question that remains unanswered is the stickiness of downtown residents. I know several individuals that made the move downtown and, after a year, are choosing to move back out to the suburbs. They haven't found it worth the additional money or [[in some cases) inconvenience. That happens everywhere, but we need not forget that there's still an outflow of population from the city center.

I've lived downtown and Lafayette Park since last September and I have yet to meet a person who moved out of downtown because they didn't like it, inconvenience, etc. I've only met one person who even moved out and that was due to work transfer. Obviously, this is only anecdotal and I'm sure everyone has different experiences.

I'd be interested to see the "outflow of population" from the city center. Almost every apartment building in downtown is full and rents are skyrocketing. Personally, I've met at least 15-20 people that have moved downtown in my year and know only one who has stayed.

[Huggybear]

I've lived downtown and Lafayette Park since last September and I have yet to meet a person who moved out of downtown because they didn't like it, inconvenience, etc. I've only met one person who even moved out and that was due to work transfer. Obviously, this is only anecdotal and I'm sure everyone has different experiences.

It's completely anecdotal. I've been downtown for 13 years, and there is a ton of turnover [[including in LP, which tends to shed families with children of school age). There is no net loss, but with typically very small units and few school choices,* the retention possibilities for families and/or affluent people are actually pretty poor. In a sense, turnover is just as bad as outflow.

And in the CBD, at least in terms of unit sizes, it seems awfully "Rime of the Ancient Mariner" when there are huge empty office buildings that realistically will never again be filled with offices. Water, water everywhere.

HB

*I think that on investigation, you might not find Waldorf or Friends aligned with your educational [[or religious) views.

[mikeg19]

Why do people just make up this stuff?

There is no "wait" to move downtown. There's plenty of housing available, though I'm sure that won't stop local govts from subsidizing more.

I could find you a cheap downtown apartment in 30 seconds on the internet. Want a link?

I don't check rental and housing sites, I've just seen in the paper that units are low for housing stock in downtown and midtown. When you are running at 95-100% rental capacity, I'd say it's going to be fairly difficult to find the exact place you're looking for. Sure you can find me a place with cheap rent somewhere. Is it desirable? Does the window look at the side of a building? Are the walls insulated or do I have to hear my neighbors having sex? There was also an article on Curbed this week regarding a 5 month wait list for the Broderick Tower, so I'm not quite sure what you are referring to as "made up".


http://detroit.curbed.com/archives/2...tlist.php#more

[DetBill]

Why do people just make up this stuff?

There is no "wait" to move downtown. There's plenty of housing available, though I'm sure that won't stop local govts from subsidizing more.

I could find you a cheap downtown apartment in 30 seconds on the internet. Want a link?

Bham,, Im a little curious where this link for cheap apartments Downtown is ? I am assuming you dont live downtown,, I do, have for 23 years... so have a fairly good handle on whats goin on here. If you are talking about slum apartments, or close to it,, you probably can find some " cheap ones". If your talking about decent housing it is anything but cheap now. One can rent in Dearborn or Warren for substantially less than downtown now. Rents have gone up dramatically in the last several years.. I know in my co-op building, a few owners have subletted their places instead of selling,, and of the people who have sublet the places,, they are paying around 850.00 for a one bedroom. The leasees I have talked to said they were very grateful to find a place like this in this price range.. they had looked at places that were 1-2 hundred more everywhere else...Sounded like they did their homework,, I have friends who just sold their two bedroom at 1300 and now are renting a loft in midtown for 2000 a month and they said they felt that was the best they could do for a 2 bedroom loft rental.. They agree that 1300 was indeed a deal , had no idea how much rents were and how scarce good accomodation was, It has infact , truly changed.. the most I have seen in 23 years downtown. Once cannot find decent , cheap housing in a quick click anymore

[DetBill]

I see dozens of available rental units in Midtown/Downtown/Corktown on Craigslist, rb.

I think the big question that remains unanswered is the stickiness of downtown residents. I know several individuals that made the move downtown and, after a year, are choosing to move back out to the suburbs. They haven't found it worth the additional money or [[in some cases) inconvenience. That happens everywhere, but we need not forget that there's still an outflow of population from the city center.

Ofcourse there is movement,, I agree, but that is nothing different in any city,, people move in , people move out, all for various reasons.. some like it, some dont,, it all depends on your life and what you want.. There are many people moving in and lots move out.. The general trend from what I see is not that many moving out because they dont like it,, a few but not as many as before, this happens anywhere,, I have good friends who moved out of Birmingham on Grant Street last year because they dont care for the people.. everyone has a personal spin, What I think is definetly happening is a greater interest to live downtown for some really logical reasons.[[ work proximity, social closeness,, types of people in the area) . and this is good,, this is what expands areas. Downtown has lacked that attitude for years and it is most certainly here now.

[stinkytofu]

Why do people just make up this stuff?

There is no "wait" to move downtown. There's plenty of housing available, though I'm sure that won't stop local govts from subsidizing more.

I could find you a cheap downtown apartment in 30 seconds on the internet. Want a link?

Ummm...you are the same one that argued continuously that 211 W. Fort has an underground garage which holds spots for most tenants...which is completely inaccurate. Makes me chuckle you accuse others of making stuff up.