Should we get rid of I-375?

[mtburb]

Just noticed that this morning in my copy. As the title says, do you think we should tear up I-375? If so, what would you like to see in it's place? Maybe a pedestrian-friendly boulevard or even a restoration of the original Black Bottom?

http://www.freep.com/article/20131124/BUSINESS06/311240072/I-375-downtown-MDOT

[Hermod]

The article is crap full of J-school ignorance and lack of research.

1. The Chrysler Freeway including the I-375 stretch was conceived and planned by Detroit long before the suburbs were settled in any significant manner. The purpose of the freeways was to facilitate movement through the city and not to get suburbanites downtown.

2. The elimination of Hastings Street was not an unfortunate byproduct of the expressway. It was deliberately planned to run up Hastings Street in order to eliminate "the worst of the slums". Eliminating Hastings Street was touted as one of the "advantages" of that particular alignment.

3. The alignment of the expressways was in Detroit's master plan long before the feds developed the interstate highway system.

Like it or not, that is the truth.

[dtowncitylover]

The article is crap full of J-school ignorance and lack of research.

1. The Chrysler Freeway including the I-375 stretch was conceived and planned by Detroit long before the suburbs were settled in any significant manner. The purpose of the freeways was to facilitate movement through the city and not to get suburbanites downtown.

2. The elimination of Hastings Street was not an unfortunate byproduct of the expressway. It was deliberately planned to run up Hastings Street in order to eliminate "the worst of the slums". Eliminating Hastings Street was touted as one of the "advantages" of that particular alignment.

3. The alignment of the expressways was in Detroit's master plan long before the feds developed the interstate highway system.

Like it or not, that is the truth.

Isn't number 1 the law of unintended consquences? Sure the freeways were thought of to facilitate movement in the city but it ended up that we could build freeways stretching out the suburbs where people could live and they could work downtown and take their car into downtown core. However, it did that then created auto/freeway-oriented development which aided in the depopulation of the city.

Number 2, ah yes a bunch of powerful white men standing around deciding what's best for a black neighborhood. Instead of helping turning the Hastings St. into a more liveable and viable neighborhood, they destroy it and build a freeway. Thus causing black residents to move into other neighborhoods that some were near white neighborhood or they tried to move into predominately white neighborhoods causing said white Detroiters to become nervous, then pack up and leave to the suburbs because they can live away from black people and have easy access into the city via the freeways mentioned above.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

I have a feeling that restoring a pleasant boulevard would slightly enhance the area around the new boulevard. But I shudder to think of how much it would cost, and what disruptions would occur during the unpredictable number of years it would take to build. All big projects have consequences, some of which aren't for the better.

Also, while the expressways may have whisked erstwhile Detroiters to the suburbs, tearing them out won't bring them back. I think we would be better off improving the streets and boulevards currently in existence in the area.

Lastly, it would certainly add time, if not an enormous amount, to commutes to downtown from the I-75 corridor. If I lived in Birmingham, the fact that it would take longer to get out of downtown would give me a little incentive NOT to stay downtown after work.

PS Thank you, Hermod for the info in your post.

[Hermod]

This is from the 1945 Detroit master plan for freeways. The Chrysler was originally called the Hastings Expressway:

"Hastings Expressway

The Hastings Expressway also would pass through substandard areas and would act as a separation between residential sections to the west and the industrial area to the east. The City Plan Commission’s line follows generally the route which we finally selected, although there is little difference between that plan and the one developed by Wayne County except at the south end. This route would lend itself particularly to the development of incidental improvements badly needed in connection with neighborhood rehabilitation. Acquisition of the right-of-way actually would constitute a slum clearance project for much of its 6.8 miles of length and construction of the expressway would invite and justify private development of wide scope along it. It also would tap the extensive Eastern Market. These are in addition to its primary functions as an extremely important traffic relief artery to overloaded Woodward Avenue and a feeder to a belt of adjacent industries. Future extension from the six-mile road north would be necessary."

[Cliffy]

I have a feeling that restoring a pleasant boulevard would slightly enhance the area around the new boulevard. But I shudder to think of how much it would cost, and what disruptions would occur during the unpredictable number of years it would take to build. All big projects have consequences, some of which aren't for the better.

Also, while the expressways may have whisked erstwhile Detroiters to the suburbs, tearing them out won't bring them back. I think we would be better off improving the streets and boulevards currently in existence in the area.

Lastly, it would certainly add time, if not an enormous amount, to commutes to downtown from the I-75 corridor. If I lived in Birmingham, the fact that it would take longer to get out of downtown would give me a little incentive NOT to stay downtown after work.

PS Thank you, Hermod for the info in your post.

Agreed. Filling in 375 will not bring anyone back and it would still be expensive. Filling in all that soil is not cheap. It would get rid of the bridges which would save money but you still have to maintain and construct a boulevard and I'm sure the boulevard will be 3 lanes in each direction. Too much traffic in that area during events. They need to worry about the crime and police and fire and everything else before we start proposing filling in 375.

[Hermod]

Any "Hastings Street" reincarnation along a filled in I-375 would end up being a Potemkin Village type of tourist trap.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Isn't number 1 the law of unintended consquences? Sure the freeways were thought of to facilitate movement in the city but it ended up that we could build freeways stretching out the suburbs where people could live and they could work downtown and take their car into downtown core. However, it did that then created auto/freeway-oriented development which aided in the depopulation of the city.

Number 2, ah yes a bunch of powerful white men standing around deciding what's best for a black neighborhood. Instead of helping turning the Hastings St. into a more liveable and viable neighborhood, they destroy it and build a freeway. Thus causing black residents to move into other neighborhoods that some were near white neighborhood or they tried to move into predominately white neighborhoods causing said white Detroiters to become nervous, then pack up and leave to the suburbs because they can live away from black people and have easy access into the city via the freeways mentioned above.

DTCitylover, without arguing about your points, I must say I think they are potentially relevant to a discussion of our urban history, but not relevant about what is best to do going forward. Yes, our history is full of bad [[if often well-intentioned) ideas. Yes, there were often racist people taking racist actions in the past. So what? You point out that powerful white men made bad decisions for black Detroiters back in the day. Well, they were succeeded by powerful black men who mad bad decisions for black Detroiters.

In my opinion it's not the color of the decision-maker that makes for bad decisions. It is the idea that people in government would attempt to impose their vision of what a neighborhood should look like is the bad idea. Our city would be vastly improved if, for a generation, they focused on keeping criminals off the streets, keep the basic basic infrastructure in good repair [[streets & lights), and avoid taxes and regulations that make it cheaper and easier to live and do business elsewhere. Neighborhoods would naturally replenish themselves over time. That's my opinion. We don't need central planning committees determining what the Next Great Solution is. Most people will improve and renovate their own homes and communities on their own in their own time, when nothing gets in the way of their life.

[iheartthed]

Of course they should get rid of it. I-375 is a waste of space.

[mwilbert]

The article is crap full of J-school ignorance and lack of research.

1. The Chrysler Freeway including the I-375 stretch was conceived and planned by Detroit long before the suburbs were settled in any significant manner. The purpose of the freeways was to facilitate movement through the city and not to get suburbanites downtown.

2. The elimination of Hastings Street was not an unfortunate byproduct of the expressway. It was deliberately planned to run up Hastings Street in order to eliminate "the worst of the slums". Eliminating Hastings Street was touted as one of the "advantages" of that particular alignment.

3. The alignment of the expressways was in Detroit's master plan long before the feds developed the interstate highway system.

Like it or not, that is the truth.

I believe what you are saying is true, but I don't see where the article contradicts you, so I'm not sure what you are criticizing, or are just just saying it is crap unrelated to your specific points?

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Of course they should get rid of it. I-375 is a waste of space.

Well, when you find the magic wand, let me know. There are lots of things we would like to fix around town. Until then, we need to assess whether or not it's worth the money, and what the consequences are.

[iheartthed]

Well, when you find the magic wand, let me know. There are lots of things we would like to fix around town. Until then, we need to assess whether or not it's worth the money, and what the consequences are.

This isn't them just suddenly deciding that they want to tear up the freeway. They will need to completely rebuild the freeway within the next decade because it is aging out. This is a decision by MDOT on whether they will spend the money to rebuild or decommission it [[probably cheaper than rebuilding).

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

If it were actually cheaper to turn it into a grade-level boulevard than to do necessary reconstruction, then obviously that is a different situation. That having been said, I can't fathom how it is less work [[and labor is the biggest cost, of course, in these projects) to rip up all that roadway, ramps & bridges along with associated infrastructure, fill it in structurally sound, and then rebuild the roadway, connections, infrastructure, etc. But if it is, then by all means.

[Wesley Mouch]

Isn't number 1 the law of unintended consquences? Sure the freeways were thought of to facilitate movement in the city but it ended up that we could build freeways stretching out the suburbs where people could live and they could work downtown and take their car into downtown core. However, it did that then created auto/freeway-oriented development which aided in the depopulation of the city.

Blaming the cars or the freeways for the desire of people to move out to greener pastures is a simplification. The roads were built mainly because roads were congested. Why was the center lane of Grand River a reversible lane?Why were Second, Third, and John R only out to Highland Park made into high-volume, one-way roads? Why was Woodward widened into one of the widest streets in the world? There were lots of effect. Some unintended.

I don't see how roads led to depopulation. People left because they were getting more wealthy and could afford newer homes. Bigger homes. And as time passed that was reinforced by more social incentives. The biggest was flight from Detroit-only bussing. Don't underestimate that. Central Detroit was becoming unsafe. Then people could choose sending their kids to the inner city, or moving to the 'burbs. It was a easy choice for many. [[And sure, for some it was motivated by racism.)

Number 2, ah yes a bunch of powerful white men standing around deciding what's best for a black neighborhood. Instead of helping turning the Hastings St. into a more liveable and viable neighborhood, they destroy it and build a freeway. Thus causing black residents to move into other neighborhoods that some were near white neighborhood or they tried to move into predominately white neighborhoods causing said white Detroiters to become nervous, then pack up and leave to the suburbs because they can live away from black people and have easy access into the city via the freeways mentioned above.

Racism was no doubt a factor. But blaming the powerful white men is too simple. The growth in Detroit's black population was a far larger effect.

[DetBill]

I think this is crazy. I stare at this whole section from my 17th floor co op window all day and evening as well as use this daily and this is a very busy free flowing artery. When morning/evening rush hour occurs it is jammed.. not to mention when social events, sporting activities and other events take place,, these are increasing materially yearly also. Thousands of downtown workers need this freeway stretch to get to their jobs quickly. Thousands of Canadian workers and tourists coming from the tunnel use this as a quick efficient way to get to their destinations. timing is critical for many of these people for work hours, commitments etc..What are you going to do to all of these people.? Make them take a slow surface street or try to connect through a jammed downtown ??. A surface street will obviously need a traffic light at Lafayette which will slow everything down even more. Yes, neighborhoods like black bottom were destroyed years ago but other things have been now been built. The stadiums and greektown and the casino are there.. I dont understand what the proposers of this project think will happen? More greenspace?? Some are mentioning how much more attractive it will be.. I really dont think the thousands of people stopped in cars each day will find this very attractive, nor will the local residents find all of these cars constantly in a gridlock very attractive to look at. The neighborhoods like Lafayette Park are already well established, have a good greenspace area ,we can get into downtown very quickly using the downtown overpass. We are not talking a large area here, all that could be added is possibly some strip malls along a surface street which will furthur increase traffic problems and end of being unattractive with some typical retailers that we really dont want to see more of downtown. You wont see any more residential development because of this. No one has even considered the major headache a 2-3 year construction period would cause, You are going to end up upsetting people so much they wont want to come downtown. This whole idea sounds like it was proposed by a group who dont live here . Well I do and I , as my neighbors, think the whole idea is insane. Use the money to improve our existing roadways and please improve the pathetic lighting system. This will be a far more wiser use of the money.. This is a critical autoway to get quickly in and out of our city,,, to quash it for a surface roadway just doesnt make sense considering the ramifications of doing this.. Traffic if anything will increase in the future.

[drpoundsign]

Well I was born in '60 and moved to the Detroit suburbs [[moving back soon) in 64. There were several urban renewal projects, starting in the Forties. The Gratiot redevelopment project demolished some buildings on Gratiot simply because they "looked old." The Low rise portion of Brewster-Douglas was christened by Eleanor Roosevelt back in about 1937. A Victorian neighborhood was leveled for the Hi Rise portion of the Jeffries Homes PJs, which, ironically, is also now long gone. Black Bottom and Hastings are actually two different neighborhoods, the former South of Gratiot. Hastings street was a lively place, the Harlem of Detroit, with many nightclubs, and should have been saved. Black Bottom was a small area where ALL Blacks were initially forced to live in crowded conditions. Many dwellings did not have indoor plumbing, and water was obtained-a stone throw form Downtown-from wells. Some of that stuff undeniably needed to go. Wayne State University and the affiliated medical school, annexed much land and demolished many dwellings, to expand. The football field were fine victorians and row houses destroyed to make the stadium of a team nobody follows.

[Russix]

If 375 and the Near east side urban renewal projects had been scrapped, this area would now rival Williamsburg.

[That Great Guy]

Modern technology not available even just ten years ago could take as many as 40 thousand cars a day off urban Detroit freeways. A bus transit way similar to those in Ottawa, Canada can be built in place of I-375 which would then have cameras and lighting, helping to "PAVE" the way to remove many cars. Studies show this can be done putting safety first, in a cost effective way. Search Transit Taxes in Southeast Michigan way.

[Jason]

DetBill, how much traffic 375 gets has been measured and it's an underutilized freeway. iirc Fort Street and Michigan both get more traffic downtown.

I also think you're overestimating the commute difference between half a mile of freeway and half a mile of a fast moving surface street.

I even wonder if having it be a surfaced would make it even easier for you to get onto the freeway. Right now you turn onto or off of the service drive at lafayette, and then you have to go up/down the ramp. With it surfaced you'd just turn onto the new road and your lane would just become part of the freeway.

People at the ren cen might complain but right now the freeway dumps them out literally 500 feet from their parking garages. The world won't end if their commute becomes 40 seconds longer.


What I would like to see, and it would take some money and some coordination, is for the freeway to be removed and then replaced with underground garages, ready for development on top, like the hudsons site. The hole is already there and both filling it in and excavation can be expensive. At worst there'd be a bunch of very convenient parking. And at best the quality of that area would be greatly improved with walkable developments.

[Cliffy]

Would not be surprised if this is being pushed by Dan Gilbert so he can acquire more land. Billionaires always have the government do their dirty work for them.

[That Great Guy]

Modern technology not available even just ten years ago could take as many as 40 thousand cars a day off urban Detroit freeways. A bus transit way similar to those in Ottawa, Canada can be built in place of I-375 which would then have cameras and lighting, helping to "PAVE" the way to remove many cars. Studies show this can be done putting safety first, in a cost effective way. Search Transit Taxes in Southeast Michigan

[Cliffy]

Detroit isn't Canada. You need armed guards on the bus and at the bus stop. The cameras in the bus will probably be stolen.

[DetroitPlanner]

Should we? That question is still quite premature. We do not know all of the costs, benefits, or possible negative consequences. One thing for sure though, it is going to need to have an Environmental Impact Statement which will take years to prepare and approve. It has not even come close to reaching that stage. I will worry about judging it once it is done.

Preliminary Obeservations:
Cool Concept
What would the impact be on the housing E of the freeway?
What will this due to utilities?
How will this impact air quality?
What percentage of the current peak hour traffic takes it to Jefferson? Who gets off at Lafayette or Bagley? Will this shorten commutes or add to them?
M-1 rail traffic will not reduce trips on this segment by any measurable amount, will BRT be in on Gratiot and Woodward by then?
What is the current life of this segment of freeway?
And of course, my favorite. How will we pay for it?

Too early for an opinion. Lets do some modeling, listen to some stakeholders, determine feasibility first.

[CleveBill]

Boy, what a stupid idea!

Looking at the maps posted on freep article, it appears all the effort and expense of removing I-375 would free up about 1/4 sq. mile of land, at the I-75/I-375/Gratiot interchange. Since the service drives along the existing mile of I-375 already have businesses, apartment complexes, and at least two churches built on them, no new property will be freed up there.

The free article mentions that it would help reconnect Lafayette Park and the Eastern Market district to the commercial Downtown: living in LP, working in Downtown, and shopping in EM as I do, I hardly feel "disconnected" by having to cross an overpass. Better than having to cross six lanes of commuters angry by being stopped in rush hour traffic.

[iheartthed]

What I would like to see, and it would take some money and some coordination, is for the freeway to be removed and then replaced with underground garages, ready for development on top, like the hudsons site. The hole is already there and both filling it in and excavation can be expensive. At worst there'd be a bunch of very convenient parking. And at best the quality of that area would be greatly improved with walkable developments.

That's an interesting idea. The drawback is that MDOT would have to make the investment for this themselves and then hope the market to build on top of it materializes. For that reason I think the chance is nil that it happens.

But decommissioning 375 will put a lot of land back on the tax rolls in the most desired area in all of Detroit right now. For that reason I think 375 is a goner [[and not a moment too soon.)