Power Knocked Out for a Half Million Metro Detroit Customers. Why?

[Lowell]

If you are reading this you probably have power so the response might be tepid. I know we had big winds yesterday and all these outages may be completely explainable, but it just seem to me that even when mother nature simply sneezes big chunks of the grid go offline. From my experience this has worsened over the recent years.

I lose power, I would guess, 5-10 times a years. Most of these are just a few seconds, enough to have to reset the clock. Others are for hours.

A few years ago I gave up, bit the bullet and paid for a natural gas powered generator which is powering this post, not DTE. That choice was driven by the great 2003 blackout when the ability to get other forms of generator fuel, gasoline or propane, was next to impossible.

Is it time to start discussing/even mandating that key parts of the the grid be placed underground or otherwise sheltered? We do this with gas.

Here is the mess as of 10AM. Anything colored is out.

[Bham1982]

Is it time to start discussing/even mandating that key parts of the the grid be placed underground or otherwise sheltered? We do this with gas.

We could do this, but underground utilities are extremely expensive, and obviously those costs would be passed on to consumers. Burying power lines only makes sense in the densest areas, and Michigan doesn't really do dense areas.

[MotorCityTrikes]

I've had a DTE natural gas generator since 2000 and they are well worth the investment. Yesterday was great when our power went out that baby kicked on in less than ten seconds.

I have a 9500 watt unit Fiance' vacummed and I watched the game......... beer was cold and micro-wave was in full swing!!! :-0

[compn]

detroit's grid is older than the suburbs grid.
thats why it goes down more and for longer periods of time.

moving cables underground costs an enormous amount of money.
i think its a good idea , but no one cares to do it.
if you do it, you get the same idiots digging up utilities that you get now. broken water/sewer/gas mains all year long.

just like in the 2003 blackout, a tree falls somewhere and screws everyone.

could DTE add a few more relay stations to avoid having an outage in one area affect 20,000 people ? maybe.

[Lowell]

detroit's grid is older than the suburbs grid.
thats why it goes down more and for longer periods of time.

If you look at the picture I just added to the first post the outages in the City of Detroit are not nearly as bad as the burbs.

This is kind of like 'earthquakes don't kill people, buildings do'. In the case of Michigan with power, it is the trees that do the knocking out. Maybe Detroit is more clear cut overall than elsewhere.

As for cost, maybe requiring all new transmission to go underground would be a start. Also anything that is critical infrastructure should be considered for hardening and even an alternate grid, like traffic-control, public safety facilities, gas stations and other aspects that are needed for faster recovery.

[bailey]

ok, it's not like it was just a breezy day. It was a major storm with insane winds. We're not going to bury every transmission wire in the region because 10-15% of the region's power customers suffer a relatively minor inconvenience for a day after a record breaking storm.

sure, losing power everytime there is a significant breeze is a problem.
Having half a city go dark any time is 85 degrees and people use A/c is a problem. But once a decade storm event? c'mon...

[WaCoTS]

yes, the electrical infrastructure--and furthermore, the trees that hang over it--in Metro Detroit are aging and prone to breakage.

don't mistake me for playing Devil's advocate, because i have the same feelings about DTE as most other people, but you have to keep in mind that DTE doesnt necessarily have a duty, nor the ability to guarantee you power at all times. as they say, "shit happens." as a former phone company installer, i can tell you that the linemen out there have always done everything they can to keep the grid up. i cant speak for DTE's corporate policies, but i can tell you the men on the ground do their best to provide the best service. i heard a woman complaining at DTE on the radio this morning, who seemed to think it was DTE's fault the power went out. you cant blame them for an act of god. we still live in a world governed by mother nature. there is no guarantee of anything, such as the modern comfort of electricity. there are few people alive today who can remember the time before electrical service was universal, so i think our generations have taken it for granted to a large extent. if theres one thing i have learned from living in Detroit, it is: NEVER COUNT ON ANYONE TO DO ANYTHING FOR YOU. owning a generator is a wise investment, if you can afford it [[and dont live on the 10th floor of an apt blg).

yes, buried facilities are more storm-proof than aerial plant, but you have to understand what a colossal undertaking it is to relocate stuff like that. they cant just pull that out of their proverbial ass. AGAIN--i cant speak for DTE's corporate policies, so please dont assume im defending DTE, but i do know how much this stuff involves.

that said, i am happy to report that while Fort Wayne suffered some damage last night, we did not have any downed lines. the efforts of the Historic Fort Wayne Coalition have begun to pay off; we have done a lot of tree work over the years to help minimize damage to blgs and powerlines by our GIGANTIC FIRGGIN TREES, lol. we had a couple windows and doors blown out by the wind, and lots of tree boughs, shingles, and gutters strewn about, but other than that, nothing major.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Energy is so regulated that it is difficult to imagine DTE operating with a free hand. There are very strict rules on how much [[and how) they produce and distribute energy, what they can charge, etc. They are also at the whim of localities who can and do stipulate where energy lines can or cannot be located in their towns and cities. I suspect those rules are as often about aesthetics as they are about energy.

Agreed also that burying cables is expensive and not always possible. There are construction, water and accessibility issues with underground lines. Every area of the world has it's own geographic drawbacks. We tend not to get hurricanes and earthquakes. But we get midwestern storms. We should bury lines where it makes sense, but it doesn't make sense everywhere. California doesn't require every single building to be retrofitted to maximum earthquake-resistant codes. It's way too expensive. So they try to get the most critical public infrastructure and large-scale new construction ready. We should follow the same procedures here for storms. Unless some has spare billions sitting around, most of us will lose power occasionally.

[Detroitnerd]

In response to Lowell's original question, I'm going to say that a certain amount of this happens because DTE is a private company that puts profits ahead of reliable service. As to how much of a factor that is, I'm not sure, but it's definitely there with any corporation.

Corporate bottom-lickers: No need to respond. Just continue to apologize for this quasi-monopoly that defies the free market that so many of you glorify.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Corporate bottom-lickers: No need to respond. Just continue to apologize for this quasi-monopoly that defies the free market that so many of you glorify.

I am absolutely opposed to public utility monopolies. The government established and effectively maintains the monopoly. The government prevents the electricity market from operating like phone companies do now, offering different services and prices. And as I stated above, along with being a monopoly, DTE is micromanaged by state and federal energy regs. Undoubtedly prices would be lower and service better if the market were freed up. Call your congressman and legislator.

[WaCoTS]

consider this:
it is in DTE's interest, on one hand, to move buried plant underground due to the high expenditure of paying labor costs [[and overtime!) for union linemen to respond to these storm-induced catastrophes.

yet they still have not.

this should illustrate just how hard it is to make such an infrastructure change like that. they would rather pay union guys overtime everytime it storms. in fact, there are relief linemen crews driving all the way from Colorado as we speak to help DTE men. thats got to be expensive. if they were to undertake a relocation campaign, expect to see your electric bill EXPLOOOOOOOOOOOOODDDDDDDDDEEEEEE when you open it.

im thinking a large chunk of the region's customers are already on payment assistance plans; if they jacked rates up any more im sure there would be a significant segment of the population who simply couldnt afford it

[Scottathew]

My subdivision in Rochester Hills has underground utilities. This results in less power issues. However, much of the distribution leading up to the point where it goes underground, is above ground. Larger distribution lines usually are better maintained.

DTE is working on this issue. Here's a map of system improvement and tree maintenance: http://www.dteenergy.com/map/systemImprovements.html

[Detroitnerd]

I am absolutely opposed to public utility monopolies. The government established and effectively maintains the monopoly. The government prevents the electricity market from operating like phone companies do now, offering different services and prices. And as I stated above, along with being a monopoly, DTE is micromanaged by state and federal energy regs. Undoubtedly prices would be lower and service better if the market were freed up. Call your congressman and legislator.

Yeah, that sounds nutty. I'd rather have power production be part of the government than engage in some kind of privatization shell game like they did to the phone companies. Fuck the phone companies. Fuck "freeing up the market." We the people should own that shit.

[mwilbert]

At this point, this problem is more likely to be dealt with by distributed generation than by the utilities.

The electric utility business model is under threat from distributed generation, which both reduces the need for hardened power distribution and makes it harder for the utilities to afford it.

[mwilbert]

I'd rather have power production be part of the government than engage in some kind of privatization shell game like they did to the phone companies.

The phone company was never public, so it was never privatized. It went from one giant monopoly and some midgets to two giant monopolies and some insignificant companies by way of 9 local monopolies. Now you have much more competition because you have multiple wireless providers and usually a cable company provided telecom services. Some places have public power or coops. They work pretty well, but they aren't immune to the rise of distributed generation either, so it will be interesting to see how they fare going forward.

[Detroitnerd]

Distributed generation as practiced by cool hippies running power back into the grid from their windmills and photovoltaics? Or by asshats who want to make extra money by upending the economies of scale of power grids by pretty much forcing individual households to buy their own fucking power plants?

You know it's a shitty deal for the average person when they give it a hard-to-understand name like "distributed generation."


"Sorry, poor folks. Go fund your own power plants. We don't need you anymore." Signed, residents, Galt's Gulch

[Detroitnerd]

The phone company was never public, so it was never privatized. It went from one giant monopoly and some midgets to two giant monopolies and some insignificant companies by way of 9 local monopolies. Now you have much more competition because you have multiple wireless providers and usually a cable company provided telecom services. Some places have public power or coops. They work pretty well, but they aren't immune to the rise of distributed generation either, so it will be interesting to see how they fare going forward.

Fuck your corporate happy talk. I liked Ma Bell. You dialed a wrong number, you got an operator on the phone and said, "Take that off my bill." And they did. Something wrong with your phone? A technician came and repaired your phone. Rates too high? People would raise holy hell and everybody knew exactly who the fuck to be angry at: Ma Bell.

Ten years later, try in that fucking voice-mail hell created by "deregulation" you couldn't get a live operator on the phone, you couldn't get anybody to admit that a billing error was their responsibility, you had a labyrinth of different "providers" all pointing the finger at other entities, who, in turn, denied all responsibility. I lived through all that crap. So save your happy horseshit talk for somebody who just fell off the turnip cart.

[cman710]

As this article describes, the German power grid averages 21 minutes per year because it has buried its power lines. Yes, Germany is much more dense than the United states, and yes, it would be very expensive to bury power lines in all of the country's major metropolitan areas. However, such an investment would be hugely beneficial for decades.

When the government stimulus was passed during the financial crisis, money was supposedly allocated for infrastructure projects. Some money should have been allocated to begin burying America's power lines. The project could have be undertaken over 25 years, and could be targetted to the most dense areas that do not already have underground lines. Burying all of the country's power lines is probably unrealistic, but a project like I described would be a good start.

[Jimaz]

FWIW, here's a link to the DTE Outage Map.

According to that map, fewer than 99 people were affected inside the Utica cemetery. Well, duh. I guess that's a truism.

[Detroitnerd]

That's the executives' money, not yours to play with on silly projects such as creating jobs and upgrading infrastructure!

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Detroitnerd, I suggest you get some solar panels and go off-grid. That should help you both with the electricity and your anger issues.

[Hermod]

Yeah, that sounds nutty. I'd rather have power production be part of the government than engage in some kind of privatization shell game like they did to the phone companies. Fuck the phone companies. Fuck "freeing up the market." We the people should own that shit.

Yes, in Germany, the phone system was run by the post office. In 1966, when I got a new set of quarters, Bundespost said it was an eight month lead time to get a phone installed. In 1966, Ma Bell could hook you up in 24-48 hours.

[Hermod]

Ten years later, try in that fucking voice-mail hell created by "deregulation" you couldn't get a live operator on the phone, you couldn't get anybody to admit that a billing error was their responsibility, you had a labyrinth of different "providers" all pointing the finger at other entities, who, in turn, denied all responsibility.

And you get such excellent response calling a City of Detroit gummint office?

[Detroitnerd]

Detroitnerd, I suggest you get some solar panels and go off-grid. That should help you both with the electricity and your anger issues.

Oh, how jolly. Power companies work against the public interest and profit off it and I'm the one with "anger issues." That's fucking funny.

Anybody who's seen "Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room" remembers hearing recordings of power salesmen laughing about fucking over little old ladies and all the various tricks they'd use to wreak havoc with "rolling blackouts" to extort more money from ratepayers. These are our saviors? That's enough to make any reasonable person angry, let alone me.

At the very least, the state should own the power distribution network. I'd argue that they should control the generation plants as well, as maybe then we'd actually start trying to conserve energy instead of hearing cash register bells every time somebody plugs something in.

[Detroitnerd]

And you get such excellent response calling a City of Detroit gummint office?

Oh, is that you, Myrt?