Grosse Pointe vs. Bloomfield Hills: best days behind them?

[mikehamilton]

I have a few thoughts as an outsider from the St. Louis area. My wife and I visited Detroit for the first time in July and were very impressed by the Grosse Pointes. We also noticed some of the drawbacks mentioned by others on this thread. A few observations/ideas:

At least two of the roads leading from I-94 to GP are in pretty good shape and don't intimidate the newby. I think they are Moross and Vernier. East English Village and Harper Woods looked clean and safe from the car--not sure about perceptions on the street. The real shockers are E. Jefferson and Kercheval--anything that can be done to partner between GPs and city of Detroit to improve them would help.

Really think that greenways and the Riverfront walk could play a positive role in integrating GPs with Detroit. Planned greenway on Kercheval could have practical and aesthetic appeal. Recommend GPs support extension of riverfront walk as far east as possible, up to GPP line. These positive developments in Detroit could benefit GP access to downtown as well as improving city between GPP and downtown.

Is there anything that can be done to control GP property taxes? Housing value for buyers looks excellent but taxes are way high--are they higher than Macomb County?

Need a decent chain motel somewhere in/near GP. Is there financing available? Does new Detroit administration and improvement in city services create an opening for developing in Detroit near GP boundaries?

Support extension of light rail starter line along Woodward--how about an east turn on Jefferson or Mack, running out to 8 or 9 Mile? Looked like fear of crime might cause hesitation about backing such an initiative but don't think most rail lines are crime carriers; instead they seem to revitalize surrounding neighborhoods and thus actually reduce crime.

Loved the unique identity of each of the 5 GPs but wonder if more services could be shared, thus reducing taxes.

As far as attracting the under 30 crowd: walkable neighborhoods and unique architecture a huge plus as is proximity to downtown Detroit. Have any of the GPs or community organizations tried hosting events specifically for this demographic? Do they know that you are there and that you want them to start businesses, live, and participate in your community?

A lot of what I read about GP vs. BH just seemed like the rehashing of stereotypes, which can be either kind of fun or corrosive. Both are basically defensive. Don't think GP [[don't know anything about BH, although Birmingham seemed nice but very different from GP when we stopped there) needs to defend itself in that sense.

Not sure what partnerships are being forged between GPs and surrounding Detroit neighborhoods and other cities [[HW and St. CS). For example, does the East English Village community organization have regular contact with its corresponding GP organization? Wondered about partnerships between civic organizations and churches--these may already be strong [[?).

As I said, we were really impressed by all the Grosse Pointes had to offer. We have one child left at home and in middle school, and the school system looked strong.

[p69rrh51]

I have a few thoughts as an outsider from the St. Louis area. My wife and I visited Detroit for the first time in July and were very impressed by the Grosse Pointes. We also noticed some of the drawbacks mentioned by others on this thread. A few observations/ideas:

At least two of the roads leading from I-94 to GP are in pretty good shape and don't intimidate the newby. I think they are Moross and Vernier. East English Village and Harper Woods looked clean and safe from the car--not sure about perceptions on the street. The real shockers are E. Jefferson and Kercheval--anything that can be done to partner between GPs and city of Detroit to improve them would help.

Really think that greenways and the Riverfront walk could play a positive role in integrating GPs with Detroit. Planned greenway on Kercheval could have practical and aesthetic appeal. Recommend GPs support extension of riverfront walk as far east as possible, up to GPP line. These positive developments in Detroit could benefit GP access to downtown as well as improving city between GPP and downtown.

Is there anything that can be done to control GP property taxes? Housing value for buyers looks excellent but taxes are way high--are they higher than Macomb County?

Need a decent chain motel somewhere in/near GP. Is there financing available? Does new Detroit administration and improvement in city services create an opening for developing in Detroit near GP boundaries?

Support extension of light rail starter line along Woodward--how about an east turn on Jefferson or Mack, running out to 8 or 9 Mile? Looked like fear of crime might cause hesitation about backing such an initiative but don't think most rail lines are crime carriers; instead they seem to revitalize surrounding neighborhoods and thus actually reduce crime.

Loved the unique identity of each of the 5 GPs but wonder if more services could be shared, thus reducing taxes.

As far as attracting the under 30 crowd: walkable neighborhoods and unique architecture a huge plus as is proximity to downtown Detroit. Have any of the GPs or community organizations tried hosting events specifically for this demographic? Do they know that you are there and that you want them to start businesses, live, and participate in your community?

A lot of what I read about GP vs. BH just seemed like the rehashing of stereotypes, which can be either kind of fun or corrosive. Both are basically defensive. Don't think GP [[don't know anything about BH, although Birmingham seemed nice but very different from GP when we stopped there) needs to defend itself in that sense.

Not sure what partnerships are being forged between GPs and surrounding Detroit neighborhoods and other cities [[HW and St. CS). For example, does the East English Village community organization have regular contact with its corresponding GP organization? Wondered about partnerships between civic organizations and churches--these may already be strong [[?).

As I said, we were really impressed by all the Grosse Pointes had to offer. We have one child left at home and in middle school, and the school system looked strong.

The are many prejudices on both sides for any cooperation between GP and Detroit at the moment to list on here. There is some cooperation between HW and GP. SCS pretty much keeps to itself. If you would like to discuss them more or would like an insider's tour of GP pm me.

[sumas]

Always laugh a little, can't say as I have noticed Kercheval and E. Jeff being in bad shape. Mack Ave is always crappy.

Regional cooperation is always welcome by many residents but politics interfere.

[Gistok]

Need a decent chain motel somewhere in/near GP. Is there financing available? Does new Detroit administration and improvement in city services create an opening for developing in Detroit near GP boundaries?

Interesting point! A nice hotel was planned for the St. John Hospital & Medical Center Campus at Moross & Mack, about where the former Woods Theatre along Mack used to be. But with the mortgage meltdown, that was shelved. Hopefully that will take off again, since St. John uses this, their main hospital as a feeder hospital for lesser hospitals in their system as far away as Port Huron and beyond. They want a hospital where the family of patients can stay very close to their loved ones at the hospital. This hotel could also provide a needed service for visitors to many of the Grosse Pointes. But a worry about riff-raff staying here is I'm sure a concern of the neighboring businesses and residences.

Also of interest, there are many development parcels along Mack Ave. on the Detroit side of the Grosse Pte. borders... what with the demise of several of the auto dealerships on the Detroit side.

Also, there is the largest undeveloped parcel in the Pointes at the SW corner of Mack and Moross kitty corner from the St. John complex and their Pointe Plaza indoor shopping plaza. This parcel [[former Sears outlet store and other stores + 8 residential parcels since vacated) is a big question mark as to what is planned in that multi-acre major crossroads. The land is owned by Grosse Pointe Farms, which seems not too keen on development, but could likely be larger than local residents would like. They might also be waiting for more existing store leases to expire possibly to expand their footprint.

Another large undeveloped [[razed) parcel is a Grosse Pointe Park site along Jefferson at the Detroit border.

[bailey]

Interesting point! A nice hotel was planned for the St. John Hospital & Medical Center Campus at Moross & Mack, about where the former Woods Theatre along Mack used to be. But with the mortgage meltdown, that was shelved.

there was also supposed to be a Cityflats hotel in the village behind ace/borders. same thing...recession killed it.

Also of interest, there are many development parcels along Mack Ave. on the Detroit side of the Grosse Pte. borders... what with the demise of several of the auto dealerships on the Detroit side.

Also, there is the largest undeveloped parcel in the Pointes at the SW corner of Mack and Moross kitty corner from the St. John complex and their Pointe Plaza indoor shopping plaza. This parcel [[former Sears outlet store and other stores + 8 residential parcels since vacated) is a big question mark as to what is planned in that multi-acre major crossroads. The land is owned by Grosse Pointe Farms, which seems not too keen on development, but could likely be larger than local residents would like. They might also be waiting for more existing store leases to expire possibly to expand their footprint.

Another large undeveloped [[razed) parcel is a Grosse Pointe Park site along Jefferson at the Detroit border.

Just got a flyer in the mail announcing an la fitness coming soon to the corner of Mack and moross...

[cjd]

Another large undeveloped [[razed) parcel is a Grosse Pointe Park site along Jefferson at the Detroit border.

Wasn't there a community center or performing arts center proposed for that parcel at one time?

[Gistok]

I don't know about what was/is planned for the corner of Moross & Mack... but if it's going to just be a "mere" fitness center then it was a very pathetic ending for forcing 8 homeowners out of their houses along Moross., as well as a Kroger. There's also the large corner site of a former Sears Outlet Store and a former Hughes Hatcher's Store that have long been razed.

Wow.... so the most prime piece of commercial real estate in practically all of the Farms is going to be an LA Fitness... yawn.

Wonder how much tax base, jobs, that will generate?

I had always pictured something like the 3 story building across the side street from Henry Ford Cottage Hospital on Kercheval... but they likely didn't want to generate a lot of foot traffic on the Mack site.

Also, I'm sure that GPF has a very powerful NIMBY crowd to prevent anything large scale or remotely controversial.

[bailey]

I don't know about what was/is planned for the corner of Moross & Mack... but if it's going to just be a "mere" fitness center then it was a very pathetic ending for forcing 8 homeowners out of their houses along Moross., as well as a Kroger. There's also the large corner site of a former Sears Outlet Store and a former Hughes Hatcher's Store that have long been razed.

Wow.... so the most prime piece of commercial real estate in practically all of the Farms is going to be an LA Fitness... yawn.

Wonder how much tax base, jobs, that will generate?

I had always pictured something like the 3 story building across the side street from Henry Ford Cottage Hospital on Kercheval... but they likely didn't want to generate a lot of foot traffic on the Mack site.

Also, I'm sure that GPF has a very powerful NIMBY crowd to prevent anything large scale or remotely controversial.

well, LA Fitness are not exactly "small" as gyms go. looking at the flyer it does look from the cartoonish map on it that its going to be on the St Johns Parking lot side of the mack/moross corner.

I imagine there is some reluctance to allow an office building to be thrown up on spec. The Kerby building is half empty, there are multiple empty/for sale offices along mack to Cadiieux....so throwing in more office would seem to be a bad decision.

I agree with many... it would be a perfect location for a small hotel.

[Gistok]

Thanks Bailey... when I was last in the Kerby Building [[2006), it was pretty much full. And speaking of that area, it's funny how so much of the block has gotten "Palladian" facade upgrades to their original more modern building designs.

I agree, a small boutique hotel would be ideal for the Moross/Mack site. If Grosse Pointers have out of town guests [[or if St. John patients have family from out of town)... there's no nearby choice [[besides the I-94 service drive motel/hotel in Harper Woods) for visitors.

[mark.vandorn]

People that contribute to the economy care about their health and a huge fitness center brings a lot to the community. It's a pain driving 30-40 minutes round trip to work out before or after a long day of work.

[bailey]

People that contribute to the economy care about their health and a huge fitness center brings a lot to the community. It's a pain driving 30-40 minutes round trip to work out before or after a long day of work.

Again posting total uniformed bullshit. There are at least three public gyms in GP now for those that want to work out. Of course many GPers are members of the DAC, or have an office gym, or use other private club's gym, or use GP Park's residents only fitness center.

Stop posting on this topic as you clearly are totally uniformed about GP.

[Gistok]

People that contribute to the economy care about their health and a huge fitness center brings a lot to the community. It's a pain driving 30-40 minutes round trip to work out before or after a long day of work.

https://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF-...&ved=0CNoBELYD

Agree Bailey... and I didn't know St. Clair Shores was so far away from the Grosse Pointe "contributing class".... or do the non-contributing retirees go there?

Sorry Mark... but can you get any more condescending?? You really do come across as fingernails on a chalkboard on this forum.

One wouldn't expect the lazy unemployeed to be able to afford to go to these... and the Bridge Card folks can't use their cards here??

[bailey]

...along with those in SCS, GP has GPAC, Neighborhood Club, Pointe Fitness, Next Level Fitness the 3 or 4 Yoga studios on the Hill, in the village and Kerch in the Park. as well as private trainer gym on the Hill.

[mark.vandorn]

There's a difference between a full-service ATHLETIC CLUB and a yoga studio or a 24/7 weight room. But apparently Detroit yes is a regional economy think tank that knows where to invest millions of dollars better than...guys with actual millions to spend.

[313WX]

There's a difference between a full-service ATHLETIC CLUB and a yoga studio or a 24/7 weight room. But apparently Detroit yes is a regional economy think tank that knows where to invest millions of dollars better than...guys with actual millions to spend.

Agreed.

A decent 24/7 membership gym would be a more than welcome change for a lower east side/NE Detroit as far as I'm concerned.

I'm still holding out for a Lifetime Fitness, but a LA Fitness would do.

As long as the equipment is state of the art, the gym is clean, the patrons are sanitary [[I.E. they wipe the machines down after using them) and the equipment doesn't break down frequently.

[Bham1982]

Lifetime Fitness, LA Fitness and the like are not the same thing as the local Y or whatever. There's a pretty significant difference. Lifetime Fitness, especially, is a really nice gym for local standards.

[nain rouge]

Really think that greenways and the Riverfront walk could play a positive role in integrating GPs with Detroit. Planned greenway on Kercheval could have practical and aesthetic appeal. Recommend GPs support extension of riverfront walk as far east as possible, up to GPP line. These positive developments in Detroit could benefit GP access to downtown as well as improving city between GPP and downtown.

Your big mistake is thinking the GPs have any interest in integrating with the Detroit. They don't even let Detroiters into their parks - do you think they want the RiverWalk ending in there back yard, after it's winded through a bunch of rough Detroit neighborhoods? Or that a GP citizen would feel safe using a greenway along Kercheval, which is pure desolation for most stretches?

Hell, there's still serious talk about figuring out a way to make Kercheval inaccessible for Detroit drivers. You should've seen the hornet's nest I kicked up when I bickered about the GPs forbidding outsiders from visiting the lakefront parks. The last thing GPers want is integration.

The bottom line is that urban planning is blind without sociology.

[bailey]

Your big mistake is thinking the GPs have any interest in integrating with the Detroit. They don't even let Detroiters into their parks - do you think they want the RiverWalk ending in there back yard, after it's winded through a bunch of rough Detroit neighborhoods? Or that a GP citizen would feel safe using a greenway along Kercheval, which is pure desolation for most stretches?

Just as a point of fact, residents of the GPs exclude residents of the other GPs from the resident's only parks. For example, as a GPFarms resident, I can not go to see a movie [[Gravity is tonight's movie) at GP Park's private movie theater unless I go as a guest.

So, it's not a "mean GPers won't let Detroiter's in" NO ONE execpt for residents who pay for it get to be there. They are, for all intents and purposes, private clubs. Shall we all demand access to the Detroit Yacht Club? Its in a STATE PARK now after all.

[nain rouge]

I'm not disputing that GPers have a right to private parks. But I don't believe it's good for the region that entire shoreline from Alter Road to 16 Mile is essentially private. You basically have the areas in and around Belle Isle open to the public and that's it, unless you want to drive down to Wyandotte or Trenton, or up to 16 Mile or 23 Mile. Any other meager parks in Detroit abut giant smelly factories or are overgrown.

I guess I pick on GPers in particular because they take whole regionalism approach so popular in Metro Detroit to its logical extreme.

[p69rrh51]

Just as a point of fact, residents of the GPs exclude residents of the other GPs from the resident's only parks. For example, as a GPFarms resident, I can not go to see a movie [[Gravity is tonight's movie) at GP Park's private movie theater unless I go as a guest.

So, it's not a "mean GPers won't let Detroiter's in" NO ONE execpt for residents who pay for it get to be there. They are, for all intents and purposes, private clubs. Shall we all demand access to the Detroit Yacht Club? Its in a STATE PARK now after all.

bailey save your nice prose! I have been trying to get that point through for four years on here, but nobody gets it or wants to get it. They have their prejudices about GP and are never going to change them.

[Gistok]

Any other meager parks in Detroit abut giant smelly factories or are overgrown.

Bingo.... all the municipalities from Alter all the way up to Metropolitan Beach Metropark... DO maintain their parks with their local tax dollars.

But as a SCS resident, I too would like to visit some of the GP parks... and perhaps they mine... but the only stipulation is that YOU HAVE TO BE A RESIDENT.

It's amazing to see how well attended the Grosse Pointe Park park is... while the nearby park at Alter Road is rarely visited by Detroiters.

[Bham1982]

GP does have unusual park policy, but it's based on location. Other communities would not be inundated with BBQing poor folks if they opened their parks to all. Somewhere like Birmingham does not have "hang-out" type parks, and too far from the hood to guide park use decisions.

[A2Mike]

The tacit assumption of the current Blooomfield/GP discussion seems to be that the two locations are the only attractive options for anyone of means whose livelihood is centered in the Greater Detroit/SE Michigan area. Assuming that a successful professional, entrepreneur or celebrity desiring to build an ambitious house, whether in a traditional style by a noted architect like Norman Askins or Peter Pennoyer or in a contemporary mode by a celebrated architect such as Richard Meier or Frank Gehry, where else in the area would there be an agreeable physical setting, suitable city services, easy access to freeways, airports and shopping, desirable schools, and the rest of the amenities associated with prosperous living?

[Gistok]

A2Mike, the Bloomfield/GP area is mostly built up... but there are stlill open areas elsewhere in the metro area that could attract a high priced home... parts of the Rochester-Oakland Hills-Stoney Creek area has some very expensive homes... as do the Plymouth and Northville area... Grosse Isle, Barton Hills area near AA, and even parts of the Clinton River valley in Macomb County.

One rarely thinks of Clinton Township as having high end homes, but the Villa di Fiori subdivision near the Clinton River [[near Millar Rd. & Garfield)... has homes in the exclusive sub of up to 10,000 sq. ft.

[Bham1982]

Assuming that a successful professional, entrepreneur or celebrity desiring to build an ambitious house, whether in a traditional style by a noted architect like Norman Askins or Peter Pennoyer or in a contemporary mode by a celebrated architect such as Richard Meier or Frank Gehry, where else in the area would there be an agreeable physical setting, suitable city services, easy access to freeways, airports and shopping, desirable schools, and the rest of the amenities associated with prosperous living?

First thing, if I'm getting Richard Meier to build my house, it won't be in Michigan.

But if you're asking "Where are the other wealth centers", I don't think the Pointes have more upper middle income wealth these days as the Rochester-Oakland Township area, or that general Northville-Novi-Lyon area.

They are really totally different areas from either Birmingham-Bloomfield or the Pointes, though. They aren't in competition. These places are McMansion country, where you go for new construction.

But look at the prices in these areas. New construction basically starts at 500k. It isn't cheap.

There's also parts of Huntington Woods/Pleasant Ridge, any lake in Oakland County, Grosse Ile, and a few other areas.

One area not mentioned is Franklin, which is absolutely loaded in the Rouge ravine and has the Gilberts, the Farbmans, and all kinds of huge money, but Franklin is a tiny nothing and basically an extension of Bloomfield.