Grosse Pointe vs. Bloomfield Hills: best days behind them?

**mark.vandorn** · November-06-13, 02:36 PM

I found this 2005 thread in the archives and thought it was worth revisiting:

http://atdetroit.net/forum/messages/62684/61765.html

Nine years later, post-recession, what has changed?

**pkbroch** · November-06-13, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by mark.vandorn

I found this 2005 thread in the archives and thought it was worth revisiting:

http://atdetroit.net/forum/messages/62684/61765.html

Nine years later, post-recession, what has changed? Both of these enclaves seem to suffer from a rapidly aging population--especially the Pointes. Are both of them capable of being elite locations for another generation or is their fall from grace inevitable? I don't know anything about property values, demos, current new buyers, school systems, crime, etc. I look forward hearing from those of you well versed in those regards.

Another brilliant observation, from the expert on the Barden house.

**Bham1982** · November-06-13, 02:54 PM

Bloomfield Hills replaced the Pointes as the region's wealth center 30-40 years ago. They're on completely different trajectories, and not really comparable.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · November-06-13, 02:59 PM

"Fall from grace" is a bit of stretch. In NY, the Upper East Side was the place for the moneyed class to live. Now, younger people with money prefer downtown and Brooklyn, or if they have kids, the Upper West Side. So demos do change, even in rich communities. But guess what? The Upper East Side is still pretty damn rich. I can't think of a community that I have lived in or visited extensively whose demos haven't changed.

**Detroitnerd** · November-06-13, 03:05 PM

I was talking with a former longtime resident of Grosse Pointe who told me that part of the problem with rehabilitating the reputation of the Pointes is the area's reputation for being restricted and WASPy. One joke that came up in the conversation was the idea that the best thing that could happen to the area would be for 10,000 wealthy gay couples to move into the Pointes and lavish their disposable income on those beautiful old homes. But there's the rub, as my friend saw it: The sort of young and well-to-do people the Pointes need don't necessarily like the idea of living in that kind of exclusive enclave, with the kind of baggage it carries.

Bear in mind, this was a conversation about perceptions. I'd be interested in actual statistics from, say, 2010 vs. 2000.

**p69rrh51** · November-06-13, 03:51 PM

On the Grosse Pointe side from my 40 plus year experience. GP for the most part is not for those in their 20's or 30's but once the children of many of those mentioned above get to school age GP becomes quite attractive.

I can say right not that there are three homes for sale on my street. Five years ago there were up to 30 homes for sale on University Place at any given time. My realtor friends are all crying about the lack of homes to sell.

As for this thread its all Bull***t!

**313WX** · November-06-13, 04:20 PM

As to the OP's question, probably just like Detroit's best days are behind it.

That doesn't mean Detroit can't be an attractive to live/wirk/play again, and that diesn't mean Grosse Pointe and Bloomfield Hills won't continue to be attractive places to live.

**motz** · November-06-13, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

As to the OP's question, probably just like Detroit's best days are behind it.

That doesn't mean Detroit can't be an attractive to live/wirk/play again, and that diesn't mean Grosse Pointe and Bloomfield Hills won't continue to be attractive places to live.

That is pretty much it. If you have a city that knows how to market itself and stay relevent, it'll be fine. If you don't, it turns into another [[particularly south) Warren.

**A2Mike** · November-06-13, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

I was talking with a former longtime resident of Grosse Pointe who told me that part of the problem with rehabilitating the reputation of the Pointes is the area's reputation for being restricted and WASPy. One joke that came up in the conversation was the idea that the best thing that could happen to the area would be for 10,000 wealthy gay couples to move into the Pointes and lavish their disposable income on those beautiful old homes. But there's the rub, as my friend saw it: The sort of young and well-to-do people the Pointes need don't necessarily like the idea of living in that kind of exclusive enclave, with the kind of baggage it carries.

Bear in mind, this was a conversation about perceptions. I'd be interested in actual statistics from, say, 2010 vs. 2000.

Grosse Pointe's WASP character, while not yet extinct, has gradually changed, and exerts its influence more in matters of style than economic dominance. Newer Pointers probably couldn't tell a canon in the undercroft from a nerf gun in the basement, but they like the discreet patination of well made and finely aged buildings, interiors and landscaping. Ralph Lauren tries, crudely, to evoke such images for a mass market, but Grosse Pointe evolved through time, study and care, not market testing. Grosse Pointe's unspoken elephant in the living room, however, is an inconvenient proximity to a place thought dangerous and unlovely by many, and that's why it's real estate values lag. Just imagine the price the price a house like 211 Vendome would bring in Bel-Air, Greenwich or Hillsborough, where Carolands, bigger but no grander than Rose Terrace, still stands and even gets books written about it, while 211 sits unsold.

**Detroitnerd** · November-06-13, 05:15 PM

Hmmm. A2M, I gotta say that your remarks ring true, and yet ... it can't all be proximity to Detroit. As somebody familiar with marketing toward millennials, which is probably the most studied and market-tested generation ever, I see where the Pointes might not rate very well with them, for instance. And there is some baggage that goes with a certain reputation for ... putting it as politely as possible, a lack of tolerance and diversity. Doesn't it just seem a bit pat to blame Detroit ... yet again?

Just for instance, Ferndale borders Detroit and attracts young people who enjoy going into the city, if not living there. Is it perhaps also that Grosse Pointe traditionally attracts people who don't enjoy going into the city?

**Jason** · November-06-13, 06:06 PM

I think Grosse Pointe's future depends on downtown. If the greater downtown area grows then I can imagine GP would be very attractive to middle aged people who have high paying jobs downtown. It's a shorter drive than bloomfield, and it's more walkable which someone used to doing business downtown might appreciate. But I don't think there's going to be enough stuff in macomb county to keep GP rich.

**Patrick** · November-06-13, 06:36 PM

I always thought the population of Bloomfield Hills is aging much faster than in GP. At least, from everything I have seen and read, BH has an older population. I could be wrong.

I also suppose some people think that GP is far more isolated from "everything" than the west side enclaves. Everyone points to the lack of nightlife and shopping in GP. One other view is that GP has a much stronger connection to Detroit than Bloomfield Hills and the other wealthy west side communities.

Another thing that people tend to overlook is the amount of liquid wealth in the Grosser Pointes, compared to elsewhere in the Detroit area. Bloomfield probably has higher annual income and earning power, but I bet there is more liquid wealth in the Grosse Pointes, even in 2013.

**Ben** · November-06-13, 07:43 PM

I've lived in Grosse Pointe Woods on Lochmoor for 19 years. Before that I lived in Harper Woods for 23 years on Eastwood. I think that when I moved to Grosse Pointe Woods in '94 it was really the peak of the area's wealth. In fact I paid about 125,000 more for my house than it is worth now. In 1994. At least I moved from Harper Woods, my old house there is worth so much less than I paid for it. My street has many families like mine whose kids graduated in the 90's and decided not to move. I've heard some people mention that GP has a very WASP feel and I wanted to say that that is really centered in GPF and GPS, when I moved to GPW I was Catholic and my kids went to Catholic schools and no one ever mentioned it to me. In order to attract new people it is a stereotype we must break.

**Ben** · November-06-13, 07:46 PM

Bham1982, What trajectory do you think the GP's are on?

**Bham1982** · November-06-13, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Just for instance, Ferndale borders Detroit and attracts young people who enjoy going into the city, if not living there. Is it perhaps also that Grosse Pointe traditionally attracts people who don't enjoy going into the city?

Ferndale enjoys a very strategic location in the heart of the region. You can use 696, Woodward, Lodge and I-75 to go almost anywhere. In contrast, the Pointes are far from everything except for downtown, and not along any freeways.

**Bham1982** · November-06-13, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by Ben

Bham1982, What trajectory do you think the GP's are on?

I think the Pointes will always be fine and relatively desirable, but I do think the home values have suffered relative to Oakland County [[though admit I'm biased). Compare GP Park to Birmingham. I live in Birmingham and will admit the architecture in GP Park is 100 times better. No tacky mega-bigfoot homes, and relatively few bungalows/future teardown jobs. Yet Birmingham real estate values blow away the Pointes. I think, very conservatively, per square foot values run 2 to 2.5 times those of the Pointes. In Birmingham, 500k will not give you a family sized house and definitely nothing renovated and non-bungalow; in the Pointes it will give you something big, beautiful and distinctive, and in move-in condition.

**Ben** · November-06-13, 08:07 PM

I Agree, Bham. In my own case I have lost over 125,000 on my home. In fact I think one of the reasons some of the best houses don't sell is because they are expensive and the reality is that they're not going to increase in value.

**313WX** · November-06-13, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Ferndale enjoys a very strategic location in the heart of the region. You can use 696, Woodward, Lodge and I-75 to go almost anywhere. In contrast, the Pointes are far from everything except for downtown, and not along any freeways.

All of the Grosse Pointes are less than 5 minutes from I-94 [[about as long as it takes to get from all of the freeways near Ferndale).

**Bham1982** · November-06-13, 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

All of the Grosse Pointes are less than 5 minutes from I-94 [[about as long as it takes to get from all of the freeways near Ferndale).

I don't think that's true. 696, the most strategic freeway in the region, forms the northern border of Ferndale, and is accessed by fast-moving Woodward. I-94, nowhere near as strategic, doesn't run in the Pointes, is accessed via much slower local roads, and sits in the ghetto. And Ferndale is surrounded by "useful things" on most sides [[downtown Royal Oak, people's jobs in Southfield, etc.) while the Pointes surrounded by water to the east, slums to the west, and perfectly fine but anonymous Macomb bungalows to the north. Where are the shops, restaurants and services?

**313WX** · November-06-13, 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

I-94...sits in the ghetto.

You mean to tell me we will have to drive through DETOILET to reach the nearest expressway!? That just won't do!!! After all, CRIME and POVERTY may jump out of nowhere and latch onto our moving luxury car!!!

**Bham1982** · November-06-13, 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

You mean to tell me we will have to drive through DETOILET to reach the nearest expressway!? That just won't do!!! After all, CRIME and POVERTY may jump out of nowhere and latch onto our moving luxury car!!!

Feel free to snicker, but I bet this is an issue to some folks. You basically have to travel through some of the worst slums in the U.S. to get anywhere. I would not enjoy crossing the Alter "Berlin Wall" just to get decent sushi, groceries, or a pair of pants. The Pointes are gorgeous but isolated, IMO. Ferndale is bland architecturally and poor schools but strategic location.

**rb336** · November-06-13, 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

In Birmingham, 500k will not give you a family sized house and definitely nothing renovated and non-bungalow; in the Pointes it will give you something big, beautiful and distinctive, and in move-in condition.

you can get a 4-bedroom, 3 bath for under $300K in Birmingham. If you are looking for a family with two kids, you can get a three-bedroom, 2 bath for under $200K. I was just looking

**Bham1982** · November-06-13, 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by rb336

you can get a 4-bedroom, 3 bath for under $300K in Birmingham. If you are looking for a family with two kids, you can get a three-bedroom, 2 bath for under $200K. I was just looking

You cannot get such a house, unless you're talking about a wreck or tiny. For family-sized homes, in semi-move in condition, you're looking at least 500k. For something well located, in good shape, and at least 2,000-2,500 ft., probably closer to 600k.

**Cliffy** · November-06-13, 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

You cannot get such a house, unless you're talking about a wreck or tiny. For family-sized homes, in semi-move in condition, you're looking at least 500k. For something well located, in good shape, and at least 2,000-2,500 ft., probably closer to 600k.

I concur. You can't get a 4 bedroom 3 bath in Pleasant Ridge or Huntington Woods for under 400k. Birmingham you're looking at 550k and above.

**Bham1982** · November-06-13, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by Cliffy

I concur. You can't get a 4 bedroom 3 bath in Pleasant Ridge or Huntington Woods for under 400k. Birmingham you're looking at 550k and above.

Yup. Pleasant Ridge and Huntington Woods are now significantly more expensive than the Pointes, which I'm not sure was always the case. To illustrate for Birmingham, take Poppleton Park, which is a nice family neighborhood in Birmingham, not the richest area in the city, and relatively few teardowns, but upscale and better than average for the city. Slight discount for East of Woodward. The cheapest home is 535k and not very nice and off a main road, most homes are in 700k-900k range, grand homes and newer construction all north of $1 million.