Should we even try downtown retail?

**Ben** · November-03-13, 10:08 PM

As a longtime resident of the Detroit area [[all of my 68 years) I have fond memories of shopping downtown. I remember Hudson's flagship and the great stores on Woodward. I also remember when Hudson's closed and when [[clothing-based) retail ceased to exist in downtown. I don't understand why people think that major retail will succeed in downtown Detroit when urban retail has failed in almost every American downtown where it was tried. St. Louis is a good example. St. Louis had had a renaissance of their city similar to what Detroit is having right now but retail has failed with their last department store closing this year. I can understand pop-ups and small specialty stores but I don't understand why some people think major retail will succeed. If you feel that retail will succeed I would like to hear your reasoning and perspective on this.
Thanks,
Ben

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · November-04-13, 12:35 AM

Dept. stores are a dying breed everywhere. Detroit retail can thrive with mostly small stores. I'm tired. I'll post more tomorrow.

**wolverine** · November-04-13, 01:09 AM

Originally Posted by Ben

As a longtime resident of the Detroit area [[all of my 68 years) I have fond memories of shopping downtown. I remember Hudson's flagship and the great stores on Woodward. I also remember when Hudson's closed and when [[clothing-based) retail ceased to exist in downtown. I don't understand why people think that major retail will succeed in downtown Detroit when urban retail has failed in almost every American downtown where it was tried. St. Louis is a good example. St. Louis had had a renaissance of their city similar to what Detroit is having right now but retail has failed with their last department store closing this year. I can understand pop-ups and small specialty stores but I don't understand why some people think major retail will succeed. If you feel that retail will succeed I would like to hear your reasoning and perspective on this.
Thanks,
Ben

Major retail does well in places popular with global tourism or else didn't experience catostrophic population lost. From my experience traveling, I don't think any city experienced losses as bad as Detroit. And living on a street where major retail is stacked on top of each other and not single vacancy, my outlook tends to be optimistic that major downtown retail in the Midwest can work, though not on any particular formula.

I think your opinion towards failing downtowns is decided only because you are looking at downtowns that have failed. Lots of cities pull it off, but their history was much different. Eventually there will be retail, but it's ridiculous to look for some sort consensus if it's worth pursuing or not. It's not really our expertise, or ability to forecast the future for downtown commercial activity. Things change when you least expect. I think major retail in Detroit will work eventually but with quite a few lessons learned along the way.

**detroitbob** · November-04-13, 02:39 AM

Multiple big downtown Department stores don't work except for NYC, San Francisco which are probably the two best city examples. Macy's operating in the old Marshall Field & Co landmark in Chicago and in the old John Wanamaker bldg in Philadelphia do well as "solo" department stores--in both Philadelphia and Chicago they are complimented by the extensive group of smaller stores in a few block radius. I think that Northland and Eastland may both be doomed long term as they approach their 60th anniversary in the near future, so one decent sized department store might work in downtown again complimented by smaller, unique stores. I don't see this in the immediate future, i.e. less than 5-6 years.

**Meddle** · November-04-13, 05:11 AM

I remember the days of Hudson's, Hughes and Hatcher, Florsheim, Himelhoch's, Crowleys, Kresge's and so many others. You could spend all day on Woodward and Washington and have plenty of places to eat a sit down lunch or grab a quick snack. Even if you weren't shopping, the window displays were an attraction. The stores themselves were almost entertaining in a way. The employees were properly dressed. Then there were the elevator operators.

I'd say those days are gone for good, killed off by the malls more than the rotten city image. For retail to come back down there, the stores would need to be unique in some way. Not much would come of the same stores that are in every other mall nationwide. Unfortunately, I don't think there are too many Detroit based retailers or designers that have the chutzpah to pull off a world-class boutique with the atmosphere to draw the kind of business needed to thrive.

**finster** · November-04-13, 05:54 AM

A downtown department store WILL NOT be happening any time soon. Traditional d'ment stores have their hands full right now in normal suburban markets. I really see no way this could come to fruition under any scenario.

I believe I was reading on here about an urban Target concept that is designed to fit into non traditional spaces and markets. For me this is a FANTASTIC idea and there has to be plenty of spots between downtown and Midtown where a more hip, funky store geared to transit and bike users as well as pedestrians more than car users would fit in perfectly. The opportunity to just purchase daily essentials and things would be terrific.

I admit I'm a little biased because I really dig my local Target compared to the absolutely hellish Wal-Mart next door [[and no, I'm not even your typical Wal-Mart basher, lol).

There has to be thousands of Wayne State students and staff as well as DMC, Henry Ford, and d-town workers as well as all the local residents that would use this place like there was no tomorrow.

Now why didn't I think of that? Oh yeah, they already did!

Let's hope it comes to fruition and I will be one happy camper, and I don't even live or work down there!

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · November-04-13, 07:41 AM

Well, Ben, I don't believe in charitable retail. I don't want any retailer opening up downtown [[or elsewhere in Detroit) just because they think it's the right thing to do. But currently a lot of people are living and working and visiting downtown. They have money to spend. A lot of stores have/are/will open. I think that there is a lot of room for well run shops of all kinds. And the more that open, I think the more successful they will be collectively. I realize that you cite a lot of reasons for pessimism about retail, and that is a good enough reason for you to not open a store in Detroit. But I hope you're still willing to shop as stores open.

**D_Town** · November-04-13, 08:08 AM

Maybe in like 50 years. If anything it would need to be a department store that is not located in a 100/200 mile radius like a Bloomingdales or Barney's. Basically it needs to be a destination shop.

**Bham1982** · November-04-13, 08:45 AM

I think the answer is "yes, we should try for downtown retail", but I understand the odds are extremely slim it will work on a large-scale level.

Outside of NYC, and maybe SF, how many really sucessful downtown flagship department stores are there remaining in the U.S.? Are there any outside these two cities?

There are maybe a half-dozen U.S. cities with truly viable downtown shopping. NYC obviously, SF and maybe Chicago on the next level, then Boston, and maybe Philly and Seattle [[and Philly and Seattle are pushing it; they both have decent downtown retail, but the most successful retail locations are in the burbs).

Then take the closest approximations of Detroit. Places like Cleveland, St. Louis and the like have the same retail as in Downtown Detroit, which is to say virtually none.

**401don** · November-04-13, 08:47 AM

In most other cities the neighborhoods are served by some suburban style retail. As well, the suburbs start at about 3-4 miles out. The fact that Detroit has no retail in such a geographically large city lends itself to serving both a downtown population as well as the neighborhoods if you can give people a reason to look inward. Rapid buses along the major spokes into downtown would help immensely.

**401don** · November-04-13, 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

I think the answer is "yes, we should try for downtown retail", but I understand the odds are extremely slim it will work on a large-scale level.

Outside of NYC, and maybe SF, how many really sucessful downtown flagship department stores are there remaining in the U.S.? Are there any outside these two cities?

There are maybe a half-dozen U.S. cities with truly viable downtown shopping. NYC obviously, SF and maybe Chicago on the next level, then Boston, and maybe Philly and Seattle [[and Philly and Seattle are pushing it; they both have decent downtown retail, but the most successful retail locations are in the burbs).

Then take the closest approximations of Detroit. Places like Cleveland, St. Louis and the like have the same retail as in Downtown Detroit, which is to say virtually none.

I look at Pittsburgh and Cincinnati as two cities Detroit could reach. Their Macy's stores appear to be struggling but both cities have a decent amount of street-level retail.

**Bham1982** · November-04-13, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by 401don

I look at Pittsburgh and Cincinnati as two cities Detroit could reach. Their Macy's stores appear to be struggling but both cities have a decent amount of street-level retail.

Both cities heavily subsidize their downtown retail, but yes, that could be an option. I would not describe either city has having vibrant downtown retail but you are right that some does exist.

**sumas** · November-04-13, 09:17 AM

Parking is key. Malls offered free parking. Boy I really remember how great it was to go downtown. We did the bus thing,most families had one car which Dad would take to work.

Wore our Sunday best and made a day of it.

I still live in Detroit and am proud to say we spend most of our $ in the city. Really wish we had a full service retailer though. I want to buy my husband a big fluffy bathrobe and most likely will need to go to the burbs.

**jt1** · November-04-13, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by sumas

Parking is key. Malls offered free parking. Boy I really remember how great it was to go downtown. We did the bus thing,most families had one car which Dad would take to work.

Wore our Sunday best and made a day of it.

I still live in Detroit and am proud to say we spend most of our $ in the city. Really wish we had a full service retailer though. I want to buy my husband a big fluffy bathrobe and most likely will need to go to the burbs.

Stay at the Book Cadillac and steal one. Money spent in the city and a nice robe for your man

**Scottathew** · November-04-13, 09:18 AM

Downtown is starting to need retail. It's not all going to be the kind of retail that people will drive far to visit. It's going to be retail that supports what is already here and what is growing here.

Event Retail - Takes advantage of people who are downtown for events
Worker Retail - Targets folks that work downtown [[large growth opportunity)
Resident Retail - Targets folks that live downtown [[large growth opportunity)

**Richard** · November-04-13, 09:38 AM

Most cities that have revised their downtown's without doing the same to the supporting neighborhoods do have high failure rate.

How many in a three mile radius of downtown make more then 35k a year?

**Chicago48** · November-04-13, 09:39 AM

Originally Posted by MikeyinBrooklyn

Dept. stores are a dying breed everywhere. Detroit retail can thrive with mostly small stores. I'm tired. I'll post more tomorrow.

Brick and mortar stores ARE dying. Online shopping has taken over. I think the best Detroit can do retail-wise is "pop up" stores, letting the little guy and the boutique type sellers sell for a temporary/short amount of time.
the only store I feel that could go downtown would be Pennys, bec. it needs to be in an urban city. But trying to bring in a bunch of retailers on a strip [[Woodward) is useless.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · November-04-13, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Both cities heavily subsidize their downtown retail, but yes, that could be an option. I would not describe either city has having vibrant downtown retail but you are right that some does exist.

Bham, how do they subsidize their retail? I'm not arguing, just wondering. Property or sales tax breaks? Rent stipends?

**sumas** · November-04-13, 09:45 AM

Funny, I won't steal but bet I could BUY a niffty bathrobe from a casino or hotel. Thanks for the idea.

**davewindsor** · November-04-13, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by Ben

As a longtime resident of the Detroit area [[all of my 68 years) I have fond memories of shopping downtown. I remember Hudson's flagship and the great stores on Woodward. I also remember when Hudson's closed and when [[clothing-based) retail ceased to exist in downtown. I don't understand why people think that major retail will succeed in downtown Detroit when urban retail has failed in almost every American downtown where it was tried. St. Louis is a good example. St. Louis had had a renaissance of their city similar to what Detroit is having right now but retail has failed with their last department store closing this year. I can understand pop-ups and small specialty stores but I don't understand why some people think major retail will succeed. If you feel that retail will succeed I would like to hear your reasoning and perspective on this.
Thanks,
Ben

You're right, you're not going to have large scale retail like Walmart in downtown and it's been debated ad nauseum here on multiple threads. The debate is pointless because the decision is based on math and downtown doesn't fit the algorithm. The algorithm is based on the median and average incomes of residents in downtown within a few mile radius. 68 years ago, you didn't have city income taxes. Now you do. As long as residents in the city have to pay the extra city income taxes, most of the higher income residents are going to declare that they live in the suburbs or somewhere else skewering the tax data to make the median and average family tax incomes of residents look really low or a lot lower than the algorithm would accept to set up shop in downtown [[the fact that there is an already huge poor and low income earner population living around or near downtown doesn't help the algorithm either--and these residents have to declare their low income too to get section 8 and other kinds of government aid).

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · November-04-13, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by sumas

Funny, I won't steal but bet I could BUY a niffty bathrobe from a casino or hotel. Thanks for the idea.

I don't think you can steal one. Leave the hotel with it and check your CC statement. I bet you did buy it.

**Bham1982** · November-04-13, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by MikeyinBrooklyn

Bham, how do they subsidize their retail? I'm not arguing, just wondering. Property or sales tax breaks? Rent stipends?

I think for the department stores, both Pittsburgh and Cincy give annual cash grants to keep them open. I don't know the full menu of subsidies, though.

**rb336** · November-04-13, 10:04 AM

If you are going to have retail downtown, it needs to be something different. A Century 21 [[where most real New Yorkers shop) or Dillard's for a department store. I'd love to see a cool music store that actually knows how to do set ups and repairs like Elderly down there. Those would actually draw people who are sick of Macy's, Guitar Center, etc.

**401don** · November-04-13, 10:26 AM

All of this does beg the question, exactly what does Gilbert have in mind? Most of us would be thrilled if he can fill 15 more spaces on Woodward. But how does he figure to fill all of them, plus the Z space, Capitol Park, the jail site, etc. Does he have some data to support his vision or is he just trying to get the ugly, but probably necessary, additional parking garages built?

**DetroitPlanner** · November-04-13, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by 401don

All of this does beg the question, exactly what does Gilbert have in mind? Most of us would be thrilled if he can fill 15 more spaces on Woodward. But how does he figure to fill all of them, plus the Z space, Capitol Park, the jail site, etc. Does he have some data to support his vision or is he just trying to get the ugly, but probably necessary, additional parking garages built?

You can fill retail space with convenience stores or places to eat. Things that cater to the working crowd, instead of the leisure or local resident shopper.