Question: Should The People Mover Come Down?

[jw101]

I was in a discussion[[which then quickly turned into a heated argument) over the M1 Rail and the People Mover. So he says,"the PM is a piece of crap, it's an eyesore, they should take it down." and the other guy is all,"you're right. Millions wasted and it is barely used." Now, back during the actual kerfuffle, I would have totally disagreed with that opinion,but now it's different. What's your opinion?

[detlump]

There's a case to be made to get rid of it. It is a stillborn project, never lived up to expectations, is hardly used, and does clutter up views of the city. If the PM actually went somewhere, like to Metro Airport, it may have been useful.

[professorscott]

This is probably not the right time to be thinking of getting rid of the People Mover. Though I agree it has not heretofore lived up to expectations, I think a few things will happen over the next couple of years that will make it more important:

1. M1 Rail, which will serve destinations directly along the Woodward corridor but not to the east or west, and which has a planned direct connection with DPM at Grand Circus Park.

2. The RTA bus rapid transit projects, for which the routes serving downtown will, again, not serve all destinations.

3. Most importantly, the RTA is likely to implement a contactless fare collection system which will allow for direct transfers between the bus systems and DPM, which are not possible today.

Keep your eyes open and see what happens. The DPM has potential, but it has needed some minor tweaks which haven't happened but are now fairly likely.

[48202]

I've been hearing about a plan to turn it into a park like New York's High Line. Elevated running track, bicycling track, and green space. Cheaper to maintain than the PM.

[softailrider]

I'm downtown quite a bit, I don't work there but I'm down there a lot. I was on the PM once about 20 years ago. I hardly ever see anyone going into or coming out the stations to get on or off.

[Chicago48]

I was in a discussion[[which then quickly turned into a heated argument) over the M1 Rail and the People Mover. So he says,"the PM is a piece of crap, it's an eyesore, they should take it down." and the other guy is all,"you're right. Millions wasted and it is barely used." Now, back during the actual kerfuffle, I would have totally disagreed with that opinion,but now it's different. What's your opinion?

Whenever I'm in Detroit and downtown, I don't even notice it. I thought years back that it should have been scrapped. It doesn't go anywhere. I would never ride it.
Detroit can do like Minn. and have tunnels and overhead passages.

[Scottathew]

I agree with PrefScott - We've got a lot of stuff coming up soon and the People Mover may see higher utilization because of it.

I do think that at some point in the future we need to evaluate the cost of running it vs. the benefit.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

In considering the future of the People Mover, we need to keep in mind that what should be done with it in the future is an entirely different question than whether or not it should have been built. That it cost a lot of money or hasn't lived up to expectations is not relevant going forward.

What should be factored in are:
1) How much would it cost to take down?
2) What adverse effects would removing it have?
3) What positive effects would removing it have?

While I probably would not build it again [[as it exists now, anyway), I think keeping it is a far better idea than removing it, for the following reasons.

1) It does help a large amount of people move downtown during big events. Autoshow & big games see a big spike in usage; it would make for more difficult and time consuming parking & congestion around downtown without it.

2) It is useful for visitors to downtown [[who are increasing in numbers) to get their bearings and get a quick, elevated tour of downtown.

3) In adverse whether, it is a good alternative to walks downtown. I know I usually walk all over downtown; but if it's pouring or superfreezing, I will use the PM to get out of the elements.

4) As more and more people work and live downtown, it's usage will only grow. That is especially true considering the Whitney Building rehab will make for a nicer, more visible station with a working escalator and elevator, at the stop closest to Foxtown and the stadiums [[including the new arena). JLA will lose it's stop, presumably, but there are likely to be a lot more events at Cobo. When M1Rail is working, people will be travelling downtown via that; some of them will transfer to the PM to get around downtown. At that point, too, RPTC and Amtrak will be linked with each other and the rest of the city's downtown and midtown.

5) To tear it down will likely cost a substantial amount of money, more than it's annual subsidy. It could even cost more if there were strings on the largely federal money used to build it.

I say "leave it". It's moderately if sporadically useful now; it could be very useful in the future, if it is well integrated into transportation upgrades and new developments.

[401don]

I do see comments from tourists in Tripadvisor, etc. that they like it both as a novelty and to feel safe going from ballgames, etc. back to their hotel. Also Cobo can sell it as a benefit to acquiring more large multi-hotel conventions. I much prefer to walk around and see a new city when I visit but there are a lot of lazy ass people out there.

[renf]

Where do people get the idea that no one uses the People Mover? Perhaps
people who never use it assume that no one rides the People Mover. In
recent years, the annual passenger counts on the People Mover have been
about 2.3 million. You cannot claim that no one rides the People Mover.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Where do people get the idea that no one uses the People Mover?

I think that idea stems from the fact that people compare it to systems in other cities that are widely used by local commuters. The people mover is an event-centered system. It might have had a life for commuters had downtown not emptied out as it was just getting started.

[iheartthed]

I think that idea stems from the fact that people compare it to systems in other cities that are widely used by local commuters.

It doesn't make sense to compare the DPM to a rapid transit system in another city. It is not a rapid transit system.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

It doesn't make sense to compare the DPM to a rapid transit system in another city. It is not a rapid transit system.

I am not saying people connect all the dots. They just think "trains move everyone in NY" & "Our monorail doesn't move anyone by comparison." And, logically, we know that other cities' systems would not have many users if only one, small, free-standing portion were built. But the public does not analyze the details.

[canuck]

Le derby de démolition de Détroit? Encore?

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Le derby de démolition de Détroit? Encore?

Zut alors.

[Cliffy]

I do see comments from tourists in Tripadvisor, etc. that they like it both as a novelty and to feel safe going from ballgames, etc. back to their hotel. Also Cobo can sell it as a benefit to acquiring more large multi-hotel conventions. I much prefer to walk around and see a new city when I visit but there are a lot of lazy ass people out there.

Or a thing called winter in Detroit.

[Wesley Mouch]

...I say "leave it". It's moderately if sporadically useful now; it could be very useful in the future, if it is well integrated into transportation upgrades and new developments.

Exactly. The question is simply a cost vs. benefit calculation.

We know it is useful and moved 2.3 million people at conventions and events. We know it serves parts of downtown that otherwise would be harder to reach for a tourist staying at, say, the Cadillac hotel [[JLA, Greektown, Opera House).

So the only question is whether the operating loss [[I presume) is worth it today and in the future.

I think the new developments coming online will only drive traffic upward and reduce the burden of the PM. Why remove it just before the traffic arrives.

[Hypestyles]

..that the conversation exists at all.. it's amazing how many 'burbanites feel proprietary in the choice to 'get rid of it'.. curious...

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

..that the conversation exists at all.. it's amazing how many 'burbanites feel proprietary in the choice to 'get rid of it'.. curious...

With few exceptions, I don't know where most people on this board live. I don't know who lives downtown, in a city neighborhood, in the suburbs, or elsewhere entirely. Not that I think it matters; this board has no power. It's just a conversation. Any smart opinion is welcomed by me. Heck, even a lot of the dumb ones are welcome.

[canuck]

Zut alors.

Tout à fait!

Why demolish another piece of infrastructure? One that gives interesting views of the city to tourists and residents alike. Detroit needs more transit options, not less. If the PM didnt exist, downtown would be poorer and less attractive to potential resident newcomers. It can be effective in the long run, and the frequency is very decent. Let´s talk about building ma belle ville de Détroit, and quit the rubble-rousing. The city and its dependencies is large enough to accomodate more. The idea now is to integrate the metro the best we can mes amis.

[finster]

This falls into the same discussion arena as 'Should we eliminate freeways like I-375 and turn them into surface streets or greenways?' in that there is less than a one in a billion chance of it happening, literally. It may be interesting from an urban planning standpoint for a college thesis but unfortunately in an area so dysfunctional that it took private planning and private money and so much political capital to theoretically build the M-1 streetcar [[I think it will happen but around here I always say I'll believe it when I see it) that we should be happy that it's even there.

It may not be perfect but alot of tourists and some locals do use it so we are definitely better off with the PM than without it. In my case I believe sometimes something half-assed is better than nothing.

Unfortunately, once the three mile stretch of M-1 is built that will be it for the next 35 years because I truly believe BRT will NEVER happen in this lifetime, nor will a M-1 extension.

My only prayer is that the RTA actually works out in some way to bring a semblance of sanity to the regional bus system to the point that it manages to function in an only 50% idiotic fashion.

End rant.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

With all do respect Finster, I think a logical argument can be made for the tear down of the PM, it's just an inferior one, in my opinion, to leaving it running.

As for the your other points, I agree on several points, somewhat disagree on others.

I agree that there is no chance whatsoever that 375 will become a surface boulevard. Tremendously expensive, highly disruptive, with at best slight value, it's silly to even study it further.

I think there is a real chance that M1 rail will be extended beyond the current plans. If it proves to be a success, I can see Ferndale to Birmingham being very open to it. I think BRT will be pursued by the RTA, as being the best thing for areas outside the city. How that ties into Detroit, I don't know. But I think it will.

[professorscott]

I think there is a real chance that M1 rail will be extended beyond the current plans. If it proves to be a success, I can see Ferndale to Birmingham being very open to it. I think BRT will be pursued by the RTA, as being the best thing for areas outside the city. How that ties into Detroit, I don't know. But I think it will.

Couple of thoughts on this.

First of all, BRT is coming, Woodward first then probably Gratiot. Because M1 Rail will exist in advance of BRT, I anticipate the Woodward BRT will only make a very few stops in the M1 Corridor [[e.g. New Center, WSU, downtown) because M1 serves the intermediate stops.

M1 will be extended organically based on infill development pressure. The first infill will be in the underdeveloped areas along the planned initial M1 corridor, but once that fills up [[which won't take very long) there will be a need for development immediately to the north of Grand Boulevard, and it is pretty easy to extend M1 a bit at a time.

Once M1 reaches toward Highland Park, it will be time to consider the Great Leap to Ferndale and Royal Oak. I have always believed the logical northern terminus for the light rail along Woodward is downtown Royal Oak; north of there the density varies a good deal and it would be tough to extend it much farther. BRT works better in that environment. Also, north of New Center the streetcar will be more like regional light rail, as there will be room to use the median and separate from traffic. Hopefully the existing stations will have enough room to serve twinned cars in the future.

This, of course, is just my thinking, but it's based on a good deal of study.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Professor, that sounds very good to me.

In my head I like to create new M1-style light rail, 2 new lines. The first would run on Grand River from West Grand Blvd to downtown, loop around Capital Park, and then run up Gratiot to City Airport. The other line would run on Jefferson from around the Chrysler Jefferson North plant downtown, then north on Washington, then West on Michigan to a terminus adjacent to Wyoming. Those lines would facilitate connecting downtown to other neighborhoods, and funnel people to and from various attractions & employment centers. I realize the 2 "new" lines are pipe dreams, but they exist in my head.

[wolverine]

The people mover is good for convenient travel around the downtown for visitors. Doubt the city will want to remove it, especially with the streetcars providing a good connection.

It could have been something better been with what's there. Could have connected to a central parking garage and shuttled people around to their office buildings. Nope more garages and parking lots nearby office buildings.