Paralyzed firefighter to lose insurance

[cla1945]

What Detroit is doing to Doogie and the other disabled Police and Firefighters is unconscionable. What Detroit [[Orr/Snyder) is trying to do to retirees who were employed in ALL aspects of employment for years upon years in Detroit is beyond understanding.


Orr is Snyders boy. Orr is Snyders puppet. Snyder is after unions, pensions, hitting the elderly harder and harder every day and both of them are callous.

Snyder is the Governor of the State of Michigan. The Governor is supposed to protect the constitution of Michigan and abide by it, but Snyder doesn't play by the rules. He chose to go against what the residents of Michigan voted for and put in his own agenda. He chose to ignore the fact that pensions are protected by the very constitution that he is supposed to uphold. What a snake in the grass.

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/23...ealth-benefits

[FEO]

Below is another article about one of our Police Officers.
http://www.deadlinedetroit.com/artic...u#.UnD-BfnOnmc

[Vic01]

"Paralyzed firefighter to loose insurance"? I guess that's better than tight insurance...

[313WX]

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/23...ealth-benefits

What Detroit is doing to Doogie and the other disabled Police and Firefighters is unconscionable. What Detroit [[Orr/Snyder) is trying to do to retirees who were employed in ALL aspects of employment for years upon years in Detroit is beyond understanding.


Orr is Snyders boy. Orr is Snyders puppet. Snyder is after unions, pensions, hitting the elderly harder and harder every day and both of them are callous.

Snyder is the Governor of the State of Michigan. The Governor is supposed to protect the constitution of Michigan and abide by it, but Snyder doesn't play by the rules. He chose to go against what the residents of Michigan voted for and put in his own agenda. He chose to ignore the fact that pensions are protected by the very constitution that he is supposed to uphold. What a snake in the grass.

What other solutions do you have to fix Detroit's finances?

And before you even suggest it, even if the city were to sell the DIA, that is a one-time sale which won't hardly fix Detroit's structural financial problems.

[cla1945]

"Paralyzed firefighter to loose insurance"? I guess that's better than tight insurance...

Sorry, my bad.

[cla1945]

What other solutions do you have to fix Detroit's finances?

And before you even suggest it, even if the city were to sell the DIA, that is a one-time sale which won't hardly fix Detroit's structural financial problems.

There are many ways to avoid doing this to people who have given more than their fair share to Detroit. Tell me what incentive does the remainder of the Fire Department or Police Department or even the Public Works Department have to go into dangerous situations and risk life or limb if the City won't stand by them? I can tell you, there is no incentive any longer. The wind has been knocked out of them by Orr/Snyder/Kwame/Monica and all the other money mongers. Firefighters, Police, and even a ditch digger take a risk every day and do it willingly because they are dedicated to Detroit and it's people...if the City won't be there if they are hurt on the job, then that loyalty and dedication slowly ebbs away.

The insurance I had with Detroit is going away, to be replaced with a policy that I am still paying for but with much less coverage, higher co-pays, higher deductibles, higher co-insurance. I may lose a portion of my pension [[and I am speaking of ALL the retirees, not just myself). But if I were hit by a building and paralyzed and had to pee through a catheter every day because of my job with Detroit and Detroit turned their back on me, I would be outraged and I would think that most of you out there would feel the same way.

As far as your question is concerned, selling art from the DIA could help, the Historical Museum has archives of cars that would fetch millions of dollars; the Water Department needs to be sold; Belle Isle needs to just go to the state; back taxes need to be collected; entire Departments within Detroit need to be eliminated....and most of all, the fat at the top needs to be trimmed...and most importantly, there has to be a way to find people who have integrity and are honest, above reproach to lead the City and have administrators who are not solely interested in lining their pockets with taxpayers money....that's a start.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

I am sympathetic to this man's plight, and I hope it gets fixed. But being owed money does not create money. Detroit needs to reign in spending across the board in order to help people like this. There are more legit claims on Detroit money than there is money to pay them. There is no way to avoid suffering. The only question is to figure out, using law first, common sense second, and compassion third, who is going to suffer and how bar. Take a bow, 50 years of city liberals. Your work is done here.

[artds]

The people of Detroit are now experiencing the consequences of managing their finances poorly and electing incompetent public officials. The real tragedy would be if 4 decades of doing that came without any consequences.

[cla1945]

The people of Detroit are now experiencing the consequences of managing their finances poorly and electing incompetent public officials. The real tragedy would be if 4 decades of that came without any consequences.

The people of Detroit didn't manage the finances, the Mayor and administration did. thug KK raped and pillaged the coffers of Detroit with impunity and he is the biggest crook of them all.

Blame should be placed on the voters in Detroit who put him back in office for a second term.

Hopefully, they will see who would be the best person to lead them out of this and vote for Duggan.

[CassTechGrad]

PresidentBarack Obama said:

“Americans must have the freedom to keep whatever doctor and health-care plan they have.”He was adamant: “If you like your health plan, you will be able to keep your health-care plan. Period.” He was clear: “Let me be clear: If you like your doctor or health-care provider, you can keep them. If you like your health-care plan, you can keep that, too.”

“No matter what you’ve heard,” he said in a weekly radio address in August 2009,“if you like your doctor or health-care plan, you can keep it.”

“For those Americans who already have health insurance, the only changes you will see under the law are new benefits,better protections from insurance company abuses, and more value for every dollar you spend on health care. If you like your plan you can keep it and you don’t have to change a thing due to the health care law.”

[dmike76]

Ironically, Kwame will get health care and three square meals a day in prison. After seeing this story, I don't see how they can cut pensions. Now the guy who got the sweetheart deal from Ficano[[age 41, only worked for the county for 8 years), HE should get his pension cut. In my mind, the art is far less important than making sure that people get their pensions, especially the disabled city workers.

[cla1945]

Ironically, Kwame will get health care and three square meals a day in prison. After seeing this story, I don't see how they can cut pensions. Now the guy who got the sweetheart deal from Ficano[[age 41, only worked for the county for 8 years), HE should get his pension cut. In my mind, the art is far less important than making sure that people get their pensions, especially the disabled city workers.

Agreed 100%. The guy who got the huge pension deal with Finaco will probably be able to keep it because Wayne County isn't going bankrupt, but all the Wayne County voters should remember this when election time rolls around..I think the Feds have Ficano in their sites and it won't be long before he's indicted.

[Lowell]

I saw that report too. How disgraceful and jacked up is that?

At least he will be able to get coverage, due to the ACA, which should be subsidized to the point where, added to the $200 a month he will get. Hopefully that will cover his needs.

Charlie LeDuff made a good point at the end of that report noting that Kwame Kilpatrick who looted the poor city of Detroit will get full health care coverage in prison while this deserving fire fighter gets tossed off. I believe I heard that included a recent knee replacement.

[Johnnny5]

I saw that report too. How disgraceful and jacked up is that?

At least he will be able to get coverage, due to the ACA, which should be subsidized to the point where, added to the $200 a month he will get. Hopefully that will cover his needs.

Charlie LeDuff made a good point at the end of that report noting that Kwame Kilpatrick who looted the poor city of Detroit will get full health care coverage in prison while this deserving fire fighter gets tossed off. I believe I heard that included a recent knee replacement.

__________________________________________________ _________________________________________________- If someone wants health insurance they should become a felon, not a firefighter. I agree that's totally F'd up!

[hhockey]

It amazes me how cavalier some people are when it comes to the city retirees loosing health care and pensions. We retirees are not getting rich off our pensions nor living like kings in suburban mansions. Many of the police and fire will receive no social security, therefore no medicare. Many are 70 plus years old and to suddenly loose health care and a pension is a tragedy. Mr Orr has plenty of money to spend on assistants and lawyer fees soon to be in access of 100 million dollars. As far as Obamba care it is not CHEAP. the co pays are 12,000 bucks to get bronze policy for a 100 bucks.I know, i am one of those who have to get it thanks to Orr. Oh and by the way my pension is a whopping 23,000 bucks. But hell who cares if we are broke with no pensions or health care that was promised. If the shoe was on the other foot Ill be some would not be so cavalier.

[antongast]

Hopefully, they will see who would be the best person to lead them out of this and vote for Duggan.

Can we get in writing from you that if Duggan wins you'll shut the fuck up about our voting habits forever? Or wait, let me guess, this is going to be Bing redux where we get a few months' grace for voting the way people in the suburbs want us to, and then you all will go back to haranguing us about Kilpatrick as soon as it turns out Duggan isn't Jesus and shit's still fucked up?

[Scottathew]

Orr is Snyders boy. Orr is Snyders puppet. Snyder is after unions, pensions, hitting the elderly harder and harder every day and both of them are callous.

Why are you not outraged at the people that actually put Detroit in this situation? You should be mad at every single deficit mayor and council. Those are the people that put these police and firefighters in this position.


If an arsonist set your house on fire would you be mad at the firefighter for making your belongings soggy? I would be mad at the arsonist.

Direct your anger toward the reason why we're here, not the people who are making the tough choices to fix it.

[313WX]

selling art from the DIA could help, the Historical Museum has archives of cars that would fetch millions of dollars;

Although I already said why neither one of these proposals would work, in addition, once an Art Museum sells off Art, it loses a status in both the Art World and under US Tax Code, which will end up causing irreversible harm to the image & future of the DIA.

What scares me is that so many people are more than happy to sell off our world class attractions that allows us to remain competitive amongst other major cities/metropolitan area and that our children, grandchildren and great grandchildren should also be able to enjoy just so they can get their full pension and health benefits [[never mind providing an acceptable level of municipal services to the citizens of Detroit). If anything, that speaks volume to the level of provincialism in our region.

the Water Department needs to be sold;

As much as I am against this proposal or any proposal to sell off the DWSD, Orr just presented an offer to the suburbs to collectively purchase the DWSD for $9 Billion dollars in exchange for majority control of it. Will you and other retirees convince your leaders in the suburbs to take up his offer to protect your pensions?

Belle Isle needs to just go to the state;

As much as I would prefer if Belle Isle remained under the control of the city of Detroit [[or an authority in which the citizens of Detroit elected the body), we have already stopped just short of what you want with the ambiguous lease Kevyn Orr shoved down our throats. The state will "effectively" operate Belle Isle as if it is their own park for at least the next 10 years [[no idea exactly what they're going to do with the park, but we just gotta cross our fingers and hope for the best, right?).

back taxes need to be collected;

Kevyn Orr personally went before the State of Michigan on behalf of Detroit to beg for help with the city's tax collections, as the city's systems are severely outdated while Detroit's court system and tax division are both severely understaffed to retrieve all of the back taxes owed on their own.

In any other state in America, they would be more than happy to help their state's by-far largest city generate as much revenue as possible, especially when said state is supposedly bankrolling cash between tax revenue from your pensions, savings from cutting the state's most vulnerable off public assistance AND starving its municipalities from Sales Tax revenue sharing.

But in Michigan, "Sorry Detroit!!! Although we took your revenue sharing dollars, your voting rights and we're going to gut your city until nothing but a skeleton remains, we can't help you with that silly tax collection problem!!!"

entire Departments within Detroit need to be eliminated

Before Orr arrived, Bingo has already outsourced the Lighting Department, The Health Department, the Human Resources department, the Planning/Development department and put DDOT under private management.

In fact, Orr is already outsourcing Garbage Collection as I type, DDOT/SMART will likely be combined into one system before he's gone [[thanks to the RTA), and [[as stated earlier) he's either going to spin off or sell off Detroit's Water Department, even going as far as to remove the city's name from it [[as if the department was never a Detroit asset).

[[BTW, except for DDOT and the Public Lighting Department, every single one of those were funded through grants from the federal government, but that's neither here or there, right? Never mind the fact that DDOT has not improved under private management, and has in fact worsened thanks to SMART almost eliminating its service in/out of the city) .

Yet, even after Orr did a thorough review of the city's finances and considered the aforementioned, he still believes the health care benefits must be slashed and the pensions must be cut. After all, the goal is not just to pay off the bills of today, but to also ensure the 700,000 Detroiters, 1/3 of which live below poverty, are able to "pull themselves up by the bootstraps" [[or be able to pay off the city's bills and balance the city's budget without any financial assistance what so ever) going forward.

the fat at the top needs to be trimmed

That sounds all good and well in theory. However, Orr wants to just reduce Pension benefits alone by $2.1 Billion dollars, never mind the cuts he has proposed to the health care benefits. Even if we did eliminate all of "the fat from the top", it wouldn't cover even 1/10th of what Orr wants to cut.

and most importantly, there has to be a way to find people who have integrity and are honest, above reproach to lead the City and have administrators who are not solely interested in lining their pockets with taxpayers money

That also sounds good and well going forward, but it doesn't help us in fixing the quagmire we're facing presently from our past actions.

[steve from virginia]

Why are you not outraged at the people that actually put Detroit in this situation? You should be mad at every single deficit mayor and council. Those are the people that put these police and firefighters in this position.

...

Direct your anger toward the reason why we're here, not the people who are making the tough choices to fix it.

- The 'people that put Detroit in this situation' would have to be the auto manufacturers. Up until the 1970s, the 'Big Three' ruled Detroit like a company town.

- Every city and state [[municipality) in the country has finance problems related to debt ... so do all the countries ... at least those that don't have oil to sell, and some of these producers carry excess debts.

- Debt problems are embedded within industrialization itself. Economists don't understand this, including the late, great John Maynard Keynes. At bottom, industrialization cannot pay its own way, it's a loss-making enterprise, not a 'going concern'.

- Being an industrial city, Detroit was more debt-dependent than finance centers such as New York and London.

- It is ridiculous for the city to commit itself to paying criminal bankers and not pay individuals ... a pension is deferred compensation. Removing a funded pension is theft. Blame is a distraction.

[DetroitPlanner]

As much as I am against this proposal or any proposal to sell off the DWSD, Orr just presented an offer to the suburbs to collectively purchase the DWSD for $9 Billion dollars in exchange for majority control of it. Will you and other retirees convince your leaders in the suburbs to take up his offer to protect your pensions?

For as much as the suburbs like to complain about the Water Department, they really do not want to have any skin in the game to own it. There is a lot of liability in running a system so huge and it is easier to make someone else the scapegoat. There is no evidence that water bills will go down as the cost of Water in the Detroit are is about as cheap as it gets. It costs about One penny to deliver and clean the water per gallon.

[313WX]

For as much as the suburbs like to complain about the Water Department, they really do not want to have any skin in the game to own it. There is a lot of liability in running a system so huge and it is easier to make someone else the scapegoat. There is no evidence that water bills will go down as the cost of Water in the Detroit are is about as cheap as it gets. It costs about One penny to deliver and clean the water per gallon.

Everything you say is true.

I'm merely entertaining the silly asssertion that somehow retirees can practically avoid cuts to their benefits.

[artds]

For as much as the suburbs like to complain about the Water Department, they really do not want to have any skin in the game to own it. There is a lot of liability in running a system so huge and it is easier to make someone else the scapegoat. There is no evidence that water bills will go down as the cost of Water in the Detroit are is about as cheap as it gets. It costs about One penny to deliver and clean the water per gallon.

As a suburbanite, I for one would love it if we had a majority ownership stake in the water department [[and we will soon). I know many others feel the same way.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

[QUOTE=steve from virginia;408274]- The 'people that put Detroit in this situation' would have to be the auto manufacturers. Up until the 1970s, the 'Big Three' ruled Detroit like a company town.

- Every city and state [[municipality) in the country has finance problems related to debt ... so do all the countries ... at least those that don't have oil to sell, and some of these producers carry excess debts.

Clearly, any and all governments' ability to collect tax revenue is affected by economic fluctuation. But those places with irresponsible spending during good times are the places where the budgetary problems are the worst now. With some exceptions, the "blue states" have per capita spending and borrowing rates much higher than the "red states." Southern and Western states have many fewer issues with municipal and state solvency. They tax, spend, and borrow less.

- Debt problems are embedded within industrialization itself. Economists don't understand this, including the late, great John Maynard Keynes. At bottom, industrialization cannot pay its own way, it's a loss-making enterprise, not a 'going concern'.

First, many manufacturers stay profitable. Yes industrial activities require heavy upfront expenditures, but thereafter the largest ongoing cost is labor. And industrial labor cost, if a business is to stay in business [[without a federal bailout), needs to stay in line with the market value of the product produced. Second, the City of Detroit- the government- is not an industrial concern.

- Being an industrial city, Detroit was more debt-dependent than finance centers such as New York and London.

I can't speak for London, but I know for a fact that New York, both city and state, are gigantically in debt, and will one day go through a version of Detroit is going through. Perhaps less extreme, because they have healthy revenue, but they have huge and ever-increasing debt. And they are about to elect a mayor who has promised to open the flood gates of spending.

- It is ridiculous for the city to commit itself to paying criminal bankers and not pay individuals ... a pension is deferred compensation. Removing a funded pension is theft. Blame is a distraction.

I will leave aside the absurd "criminal bankers" non-sequitor for a moment, and mention merely that federal bankruptcy law puts retired staff [[from CEOs on down) near the bottom of the repay totem pole, and for a good reason. In order for an institution-government or business- to move forward with its operations, it needs to maintain working relationships with those it still needs to do business with. Retirees are former assets to the institution, ability to borrow money is a current need. If Detroit had to pay the retirees first, they wouldn't have enough money to pay for current operations. The CoD government would be a pension plan, rather than a government, providing services to its residents.

Criminal bankers? How is lending money, with conditions agreed to by both parties [[in the city's case, lawyers, mayors, councils, and treasury staff all have review powers), and then enforcing those conditions criminal? Hate banks? You [[and the city) are free not to use them. You can join a credit union. Then you're the owner. And you would hate people not paying you back, too!

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

"a pension is deferred compensation"


Oh, and I need to tell you, Steve, I think deferred compensation is a terrible idea, public or private sector. You never can be sure of economic and other conditions in the long run. Deferred compensation assumes an ability [[and willingness) of future people to pay. What if population shrinks? What if there is a depression? What if the life expectancy increases significantly? What if your business/industry withers away? Agreeing to deferred compensation- no matter whether you are the payer or recipient- assumes risk that there will not be an ability to pay.

[Hermod]

"a pension is deferred compensation"


Oh, and I need to tell you, Steve, I think deferred compensation is a terrible idea, public or private sector. You never can be sure of economic and other conditions in the long run. Deferred compensation assumes an ability [[and willingness) of future people to pay. What if population shrinks? What if there is a depression? What if the life expectancy increases significantly? What if your business/industry withers away? Agreeing to deferred compensation- no matter whether you are the payer or recipient- assumes risk that there will not be an ability to pay.

I think a good case in point to here is the Hatter's union. Because hat making shops were so small, the union negotiated their contracts with the shops so that the shops would pay into the union pension fund for their employees. Unlike the Teamsters [[and a few others) the hatters union pension fund was honestly and prudently run. As hatmakers retired they received a small pension [[though decent by the standards of the day).

What happened was that in 1961, John F. Kennedy went hatless to his inauguration. Overnight, men all over the US quit wearing homburgs, derbies, fedoras, and boaters as a part of being normally dressed outside. There was an almost complete evaporation of the hat business. Hatmaker companies closed their doors and very little was coming in to the pension fund. Legacy pensioners saw their monthly pensions get cut again and again. near the end, $30 a month was a common pension. I am not sure if the union even exists any more. Who is to blame here? Do we blame the workers, the small hat making company owners, the union, or President Kennedy?