Guess Sports DO make a big contribution to an area's energy and economic vitality

[emu steve]

Dave Curtis, managing partner, said the downtown Detroit location, which opened late last year, ranked in the top 25 in sales among all Buffalo Wild Wings locations nationwide as the Tigers played the Oakland Athletics last week.

This week, the company is calling on its entire 110-person staff to handle crowds watching 95 TVs spread among three floors.

“Those games are bringing in a large crowd,” Curtis said.

“We’re going to be completely staffed to accommodate it.”

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...#ixzz2hyH0WO3i

[Eber Brock Ward]

steve, they certainly do.

but the question doubters have posed is: does that increased vitality offset the amount spent on subsidies for stadia, including infrastructure upgrades.

seems the dominant answer is "probably not"

[DetroitPlanner]

The Tigers, Wings, and Lions are icing on the cake. You cannot open up a major eatery based upon them alone. You will lose you shirt should one move.

Of course billioniares are going to try to sell the municipality the economic development aspect of the development. They want to be able to tap them for much of the cost, keeping them billionaires. Truth be told yes there are some places benefitting from the stadium, but the way they are built are much like casinos; surrounded by moats of parking and trying their best to keep as many of the dollars spent that day inside the stadium. It is for this reason that Eber Brock Ward [[Detroit's first mr. moneybags) is correct.

[rb336]

The Tigers, Wings, and Lions are icing on the cake. You cannot open up a major eatery based upon them alone. You will lose you shirt should one move.

Of course billioniares are going to try to sell the municipality the economic development aspect of the development. They want to be able to tap them for much of the cost, keeping them billionaires. Truth be told yes there are some places benefitting from the stadium, but the way they are built are much like casinos; surrounded by moats of parking and trying their best to keep as many of the dollars spent that day inside the stadium. It is for this reason that Eber Brock Ward [[Detroit's first mr. moneybags) is correct.

In the case of the stadiums, once the new hockey arena is in place there will be games in that area year round. Throw in concerts, the proximity to other entertainment venues like the music box, opera house, orchestra hall, etc., then throw in the higher office occupancy and it certainly creates the critical mass for successful businesses. higher density of people creates a safer feeling and a more lively feeling. In this setting, it contributes to the growth rather than attempting to act as a catalyst, which has been shown to be unsuccessful

[Hamtragedy]

8 football games.
81-90 baseball games
41 hockey games

130 days of sporting events

235 days a year stadia go unused, unless for monster truck rallies, Kid rock, or ice capades.

[motz]

8 football games.
81-90 baseball games
41 hockey games

130 days of sporting events

235 days a year stadia go unused, unless for monster truck rallies, Kid rock, or ice capades.

The only stadium that suffers from true inactivity is Comerica, and that is because no roof. Beyond that, every other sports venue can host events year round. Its just a matter of drumming up support to get these events here. Also punching whoever owns that Plymouth Arena that keeps booking shows that should be elsewhere.

[iheartthed]

The Tigers, Wings, and Lions are icing on the cake. You cannot open up a major eatery based upon them alone. You will lose you shirt should one move.

And what happens when your team isn't doing so great? If the Tigers weren't playing in October then what would the revenue at BW3 look like?

[iheartthed]

steve, they certainly do.

but the question doubters have posed is: does that increased vitality offset the amount spent on subsidies for stadia, including infrastructure upgrades.

seems the dominant answer is "probably not"

Not only does it offset the subsidies, but is the gimmick of using sports teams to attract people downtown an effective replacement for an actual central business district? Is BW3's bottom line better off having the stadium there or would it be better if there was a centralized business district downtown?

[bailey]

8 football games. [64k a game, 500k a year in attendance]
81-90 baseball games [2013 regular season attendance of 3, 083,000 with 2.5-3+ million a year since 2006 and about 35k a game]
41 hockey games [20k a game and 500k a year]

130 days of sporting events [that wouldn't be happening there if not for the stadia.]

235 days a year stadia go unused, unless for monster truck rallies, Kid rock, or ice capades. [however, when they are used for them, that's another 20-50k people downtown spending money on a night they wouldn't be].

Added some missing context.

I think there is a valid point that the funding formula is too heavily tilted towards subsidizing billionaires....however, that doesn't mean these should not be a public private partnership or that they bring nothing to the City.

[bailey]

And what happens when your team isn't doing so great? If the Tigers weren't playing in October then what would the revenue at BW3 look like?
Not only does it offset the subsidies, but is the gimmick of using sports teams to attract people downtown an effective replacement for an actual central business district? Is BW3's bottom line better off having the stadium there or would it be better if there was a centralized business district downtown?

Little 'chicken vs egg' in those questions.... would there be a BW3 there if the Tigers played in Novi and the lions were still in Pontiac? Clearly BWs wouldn't be there if the Tigers were still in Corktown...because they weren't there before.

[iheartthed]

Little 'chicken vs egg' in those questions.... would there be a BW3 there if the Tigers played in Novi and the lions were still in Pontiac? Clearly BWs wouldn't be there if the Tigers were still in Corktown...because they weren't there before.

And if Troy and Southfield were in Detroit? Yeah, BW3 would still be there...

[DetroitPlanner]

In the case of the stadiums, once the new hockey arena is in place there will be games in that area year round. Throw in concerts, the proximity to other entertainment venues like the music box, opera house, orchestra hall, etc., then throw in the higher office occupancy and it certainly creates the critical mass for successful businesses. higher density of people creates a safer feeling and a more lively feeling. In this setting, it contributes to the growth rather than attempting to act as a catalyst, which has been shown to be unsuccessful

So what? Everything is tilted to the owners advantage. More money is spent inside the stadium or in parking controlled by the stadium than is spent outside of it. By investing public dollars into this, the return is still very small for anyone but the owner. The owners have cities over a barrel because they have folks bidding for them to come to town. They use this as a bargaining chip to increase their own profits. Do you have any idea how much the City and County have invested in Ford Field, Comerica, or Joe Louis as opposed to the owners? What sort of direct revenue do they make off of the facility as opposed to what they have put into it? As I have stated these things are designed like casinos, to keep as many dollars from leaking to other parts of the City as possible. The majority of the money generated stays with the Stadium, so as far as it being a good investment, its a great one if you are a billionaire who can get a municipality to build much of it for you. If you are Buffalo Wild Wings you are getting scraps. Yes it is still good for business, but it should not be why you open your business as if it leaves [[and teams are very mobile these days chasing stadium dollars) your business is closed, with no guarantee of you being able to recoup your investment.

[DetroitPlanner]

The only stadium that suffers from true inactivity is Comerica, and that is because no roof. Beyond that, every other sports venue can host events year round. Its just a matter of drumming up support to get these events here. Also punching whoever owns that Plymouth Arena that keeps booking shows that should be elsewhere.

That would be Pate Karmanos. You can find him at lunchtime eating at his favorite spot in Downtown Brightmoor [[Scotty Simpson's). Better watch out though Brightmoor has Pete's back.

[Gistok]

Not only does it offset the subsidies, but is the gimmick of using sports teams to attract people downtown an effective replacement for an actual central business district? Is BW3's bottom line better off having the stadium there or would it be better if there was a centralized business district downtown?

They're mutually exclusive from a restaurant POV.... a CBD offers lunch choices... a stadium is mainly a dinner crowd. The 2 together offer a better survival rate for restaurants chances of survival. But even that alone is not enough... you need downtown/midtown residential to keep restaurants going on non-game nights.

Standalone CBDs are usually dead at night... just look at Wall St. in NYC... after 6PM you won't see anyone out and about.

[DetroitPlanner]

Added some missing context.

I think there is a valid point that the funding formula is too heavily tilted towards subsidizing billionaires....however, that doesn't mean these should not be a public private partnership or that they bring nothing to the City.

It is not a public private partnership. It is called extortion. If it was a true partnership then the City would be getting a direct benefit. Do you know how many additional waiters paying city taxes you would need to employ to make up $500 million amortized over 30 years?

[ghettopalmetto]

They're mutually exclusive from a restaurant POV.... a CBD offers lunch choices... a stadium is mainly a dinner crowd. The 2 together offer a better survival rate for restaurants chances of survival. But even that alone is not enough... you need downtown/midtown residential to keep restaurants going on non-game nights.

Standalone CBDs are usually dead at night... just look at Wall St. in NYC... after 6PM you won't see anyone out and about.

Maybe Wall Street needs a hockey arena, then. Stupid New Yorkers!

[Detroitnerd]

As if on cue, while subsidies for our pizza baron are up for debate, the "business reporters" for the News come up with anecdotal evidence supporting said subsidies. Surprise, surprise...

[iheartthed]

They're mutually exclusive from a restaurant POV.... a CBD offers lunch choices... a stadium is mainly a dinner crowd. The 2 together offer a better survival rate for restaurants chances of survival. But even that alone is not enough... you need downtown/midtown residential to keep restaurants going on non-game nights.

Standalone CBDs are usually dead at night... just look at Wall St. in NYC... after 6PM you won't see anyone out and about.

Wall St is relatively dead after 6pm. That's relative to Midtown Manhattan, which is the largest business district in New York. The Wall Street area still supports a ton of restaurants, bars, convenience stores, gyms and even a couple of grocery stores.

[motz]

Little 'chicken vs egg' in those questions.... would there be a BW3 there if the Tigers played in Novi and the lions were still in Pontiac? Clearly BWs wouldn't be there if the Tigers were still in Corktown...because they weren't there before.

Red Wings and many other sporting events my friends. Midtown's sports option are alright [[Lefty's, Circa, 3rd St, Starters) but downtown is where to truly GOOD sports bars are, whether it be BW3, Bookie's, any number of places. Corktown has McShane's, which is good. But BW3 would be buzzing regardless of if the Tiger's were in the playoffs. It is a quality sports bar.

[bailey]

And if Troy and Southfield were in Detroit? Yeah, BW3 would still be there...

However, Troy and Southfield exist and we can't fix that unless there is a draw. Ford field and Copa exist now and that has had a huge effect on what people see and think about Detroit. . Detroit needs to be the "center" of stuff. Rightly or wrongly, today, the "center" focuses more on sports and bars and nightlife because very few of the bean counter or those with controlling interest at XYZ Industries, Inc gives a tinker's damn about anything other than which city/county is going to give it the best deal.

It is not a public private partnership. It is called extortion. If it was a true partnership then the City would be getting a direct benefit. Do you know how many additional waiters paying city taxes you would need to employ to make up $500 million amortized over 30 years?

I agree the formula is way, way out of wack.

I disagree that there isn't a significant economic multiplier effect that goes beyond just the waiters.

I mean, look around the immediate neighborhood... compare the DAC of the late 90s to the DAC of today. Compare the Gem or the tons of other venues that are getting a second wind around downtown like the Colony Club or places like Cliff Bells. Would the Broderick be renovated? etc.

[nain rouge]

I'd say stadiums do wonders for big money entertainment districts. The real question is: how important do you think an entertainment district is in Detroit? Is it going to help "save" Detroit?

I think those are hard questions.

Corktown is interesting, however, in that it lost its stadium and yet its doing better as a place to live and spend time than it has in many decades.

[iheartthed]

However, Troy and Southfield exist and we can't fix that unless there is a draw. Ford field and Copa exist now and that has had a huge effect on what people see and think about Detroit. . Detroit needs to be the "center" of stuff. Rightly or wrongly, today, the "center" focuses more on sports and bars and nightlife because very few of the bean counter or those with controlling interest at XYZ Industries, Inc gives a tinker's damn about anything other than which city/county is going to give it the best deal.

Well, the Red Wings have played downtown for over 30 years with consistent playoff appearances and that never contributed much spin off. So is the renewed interest in downtown spurred by the presence of the sports teams or is it because of the investment in a previously discarded area of the city? Could that interest in the city's core still been sparked by attracting investment for other uses of the space?

[TTime]

http://www.theonion.com/articles/ext...buffalo,33963/

[Detroitnerd]

Wait, maybe this stadium subsidy thing makes sense. Remember that neighborhood around Tiger Stadium? It had all those cool housing developments and a million bars and everything was humming there all the time. Hell, you couldn't afford a loft apartment for thousands of dollars a month! Then, when they closed Tiger Stadium, the buildings started to become vacant, the shops, restaurants and bars closed, and finally they had to demolish most of the neighborhood because it was so blighted. So maybe this all makes sense.

Oh, wait. That's not what happened. It was totally the opposite of that. Forget it.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Sports teams are a net plus for downtown, in my opinion. Will they contribute enough in tax revenue in the near term to cover the public money spent? Almost certainly not. But there are many ways to measure their success.

1) Visitors to downtown for sports events DO spend a lot of money outside the stadium. Hotels, casinos, restaurants, and bars [[and retail, too, when we get it) do much more business with them. Yes, many days don't have sports, but there would certainly be massively less revenue for the existing establishments [[and their employees) should they not have those hundreds of games and events.

2) Even visitors who DON'T spend money get to see downtown. Walking past restaurants, casinos and new developments leads to people having more positive feelings about downtown, which will lead to some of them to visit again in the future, and not just for sports. People going downtown to a game at least "browse" downtown.

3) Sports provide virtually the only significant positive press Detroit gets in the national media [[yes, including TV shots that show Detroit to look lively, cool, and unthreatening).

4) The stadiums and parking and concessions employ, including part-time and seasonal staff, thousands of Detroiters [[and even more metro-Detroiters). These people spend money and pay taxes, a good chunk in the city. And service & hospitality jobs are the best venue for people with limited education and job experience to break into the workforce.

5) Physically large developments like the stadiums fill in large gaps in our blighted city. The desert has shrunk significantly in the Comerica/Ford Field area, and the gap between active midtown and Foxtown will shrink tremendously when the new arena [[plus anything associated that) gets built.

Sports developments are not a panacea for cities. And having them does not warrant an outsized public expenditure. But they do bring thousands of people per event downtown that would not otherwise come. And they do that consistently. In a sense, in terms of public expenditure, they can be regarded as a loss-leader. Like a party store selling 99cent 2-liters of pop.

Comerica Park & Ford Field did not fix Detroit, but they helped bring a pulse back to downtown. I think the new arena will enhance that tremendously. I also think- as I have said before in other posts- that Detroit would do well to pursue a Major League Soccer franchise & stadium.

And we are also lucky in Detroit with our sports owners [[the jury is out on Mr. Gores). I think there is little to no chance that the Fords or the Ilitches would up and move their teams to the suburbs, let alone out of the area. They are here for the long haul.

And picking up on a note mentioned by Nain, even the areas vacated by teams can benefit. Corktown is livelier than ever. If/when the Joe gets torn down, it will give the city a chance to fix that awful, anti-urban, post-apocalyptic area of fences, weird parking, covered walks and East German humanity.

I'm thankful for the teams, the fans, the owners, the stadiums, and even the doubters.