Woodward Avenue Light Rail

**stasu1213** · September-05-13, 04:49 AM

I see that it is late summer and there are no signs of groundbreaking for the light rail that will go from Jefferson to New Center up Woodward. I am beginning to say "I had told you so". I don't want to hear that the plans are still being worked out. I don't want to hear the construction will start in the fall. Those are excuses saying that the project had been mothballed or scrapped. I had always said on this site that I will believe it when I see it.

**professorscott** · September-05-13, 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

I see that it is late summer and there are no signs of groundbreaking for the light rail that will go from Jefferson to New Center up Woodward. I am beginning to say "I had told you so". I don't want to hear that the plans are still being worked out. I don't want to hear the construction will start in the fall. Those are excuses saying that the project had been mothballed or scrapped. I had always said on this site that I will believe it when I see it.

The contractors' open house was August 23, not quite two weeks ago. MLive says construction is to start this autumn. The M1 Rail people all along have said operations will start in 2015. The construction is being done in two phases. Once it starts, it will be pretty intense, methinks.

**Detroitnerd** · September-05-13, 10:20 AM

Oh, yes. This curbside light rail is going to be wonderful. Of course, even though it seems that every transit planner in the world thinks curbside light rail is an idiotic idea, deep down they really just resent Dan Gilbert's money.

When cars are zipping by light rail vehicles that are stuck behind somebody's illegally parked hooptie, waiting for a tow truck, metro Detroiters will have even more reasons to laugh at "mass transit."

**professorscott** · September-05-13, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Oh, yes. This curbside light rail is going to be wonderful. Of course, even though it seems that every transit planner in the world thinks curbside light rail is an idiotic idea, deep down they really just resent Dan Gilbert's money.

When cars are zipping by light rail vehicles that are stuck behind somebody's illegally parked hooptie, waiting for a tow truck, metro Detroiters will have even more reasons to laugh at "mass transit."

No problem; come up with four billion dollars and we'll build a subway instead. Or figure out how we can eliminate a travel lane in each direction along the entire route and we can make the light rail work in a non traffic lane. [[You'll need MDOT's permission for that, and good luck; we couldn't accomplish it.)

It remains to be seen how many people will use the streetcar and for what purposes; projections are always problematic when you introduce something new. But I can't figure out if you want it to fail or if you're just assuming that it will. For me to assume failure would involve betting against [[among other people) Roger Penske, and that does not seem to me a good bet.

So I, unlike you, am guardedly optimistic, and until we see what actually happens, our opinions will differ. I will point out, though, that the Detroit streetcars that ran from the late 19th century to 1956 were very well used and ran entirely in mixed traffic. But, again, we'll see.

**detmsp** · September-05-13, 11:40 AM

I think the proposed plan is a bit less than ideal. I think they should have removed the parking lane on one side of woodward and put the tracks for both directions there. That way you don't have people parking crossing the tracks all the time.

**esp1986** · September-05-13, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by professorscott

No problem; come up with four billion dollars and we'll build a subway instead. Or figure out how we can eliminate a travel lane in each direction along the entire route and we can make the light rail work in a non traffic lane. [[You'll need MDOT's permission for that, and good luck; we couldn't accomplish it.)

It remains to be seen how many people will use the streetcar and for what purposes; projections are always problematic when you introduce something new. But I can't figure out if you want it to fail or if you're just assuming that it will. For me to assume failure would involve betting against [[among other people) Roger Penske, and that does not seem to me a good bet.

So I, unlike you, am guardedly optimistic, and until we see what actually happens, our opinions will differ. I will point out, though, that the Detroit streetcars that ran from the late 19th century to 1956 were very well used and ran entirely in mixed traffic. But, again, we'll see.

The Downtown area will be the worst regardless, just because of the number of stops. So the curbside thing is merely secondary.

If if ever expands past Grand, it will be median running, and will be able to move pretty quickly with fewer stops.

Boston's T system is also a streetcar system. It runs in it's own right of way, either in the middle of the street, or on a side. It can be very slow at times because of traffic too. So there really is no perfect way to make it happen. The biggest impediment is abandoned cars on the side of the road.

I have a feeling that there will be a tow truck on call whenever the system is running.

Regardless, I am cautiously optimistic about the success. I know I will be using it, as I have clients in the Midtown area, while I work Downtown. And for people who can't find affordable housing Downtown, this will open up a few more options up Woodward, where rents are a bit cheaper.

But to say this isn't going to happen, you're on crack. The RFPs are already being drawn and issued, and a construction manager has been chosen.

**Detroitnerd** · September-05-13, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by professorscott

No problem; come up with four billion dollars and we'll build a subway instead. Or figure out how we can eliminate a travel lane in each direction along the entire route and we can make the light rail work in a non traffic lane. [[You'll need MDOT's permission for that, and good luck; we couldn't accomplish it.)

Professor, you just can't stop defending a bad idea can you? How does that happen? Do they put a nickel in the slot in back of your head every morning?

Oh, yes. The onus is on sensible people with good ideas to come up with funding, not on moneybags who don't know what they're talking about who demand bad ideas be implemented.

And that, in a nutshell, is why shit is always fucked up in town. Because good sense without money walks, and bullshit in pinstripes talks.

With help from a little enabler or two along the way? Huh, professoreenie?

**dtowncitylover** · September-05-13, 01:19 PM

Fall is from September 21-December 21. So it's not even fall yet. I don't think we expected them to break ground at 12:01 AM September 1.

We don't have to like this plan, but we have to accept it. The powers that be, albeit private powers that rarely do these kinds of things, are building this. No one of us have the money or resources do such a projects, in fact neither does the city or the state. I loved the DTOGS plan and jumped for joy when they released that animated video of the plan.

Statsu, I know you've been skeptical all along so I won't chide you for feeling as such. I feel a little of the same way. But I'm gonna stay a bit hopeful. I think the private powers do know that transit is good. And these powers aren't the Fords or the men on the Fourteenth Floor. I think any person who still thinks the Big 3 would try to sabotage this is a conspiracy theorist. The Big 3 have seen the rise of light rail systems across North America, and a metro system in LA, once of the car driving capital of the world, and probably still is.

You would think the Big 3 would have given alot more time and effort into creating a better Detroit so their location of their brands has the same respect and power they did.

**Detroitnerd** · September-05-13, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

We don't have to like this plan, but we have to accept it. The powers that be, albeit private powers that rarely do these kinds of things, are building this. No one of us have the money or resources do such a projects, in fact neither does the city or the state.

Yeah, uh, no. I don't have to accept it. And I have no use for it. And it strains my credibility that people are lining up for People Mover II, and thanking the people paying to build it, even though they then have to run it.

**dtowncitylover** · September-05-13, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Yeah, uh, no. I don't have to accept it. And I have no use for it. And it strains my credibility that people are lining up for People Mover II, and thanking the people paying to build it, even though they then have to run it.

I hate that. PM2. The People Mover goes IN A CIRCLE LIKE A CHRISTMAS TRAIN. It doesn't go anywhere! Around and around it goes. M1 at least GOES places. Riverfront, Campus Martius, Fox Theatre/Stadiums, Wayne State, Museums, Amtrak, Fisher Theatre. And all the restaurants and any shops along the way. Those are places people living or visiting down there like to go. People staying in a downtown hotel can go, without a car, to the DIA or the historical museum. Something they couldn't do before.

PM technology was always shoddy technology that few people wanted to invest in. Most streetcar and light rail technology are modern, with many companies building cars and cables and updating them often.

It seems many people here have this disdain for private enterprise wanting to help build something the public sector usually does. Hey, I'm a liberal not ashamed to admit it, but when the public sector can't do a job that needs to be done, then why not let, in this case, these business guys come in. Thank you Dan Gilbert and Roger Penske for investing in something Detroit does need. Then, yes, once the city is on its feet it will be more than willing to run and upkeep it.

**Detroitnerd** · September-05-13, 02:07 PM

People Mover doesn't take you anywhere you can't walk in 15 minutes. This new system is different: It doesn't take you anywhere you can't drive in five minutes. In fact, the tremendous amount of stops [[all ensured by the private backing) mean it will be a bottleneck in any future mass transit system it is a part of.

So you're right. The People Mover used shoddy, boutique, expensive technology to go in a circle.

M1 light rail will use standard technology in a way that most transit planners think is stupid.

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

It seems many people here have this disdain for private enterprise wanting to help build something the public sector usually does. Hey, I'm a liberal not ashamed to admit it, but when the public sector can't do a job that needs to be done, then why not let, in this case, these business guys come in. Thank you Dan Gilbert and Roger Penske for investing in something Detroit does need. Then, yes, once the city is on its feet it will be more than willing to run and upkeep it.

No, I have no disdain for rich people. I have disdain for people who use the means at their disposal to distort the democratic process and good planning.

Plus, as far as I know, these titans of business aren't planning to pay to RUN the system. They're just paying for most of the construction, with taxes from Washington kicked in as well. So, if they're not going to pay to run the system, why shouldn't the people [[WHO WANTED A CENTER-RUNNING SYSTEM) have some say?

**ghettopalmetto** · September-05-13, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

It seems many people here have this disdain for private enterprise wanting to help build something the public sector usually does. Hey, I'm a liberal not ashamed to admit it, but when the public sector can't do a job that needs to be done, then why not let, in this case, these business guys come in. Thank you Dan Gilbert and Roger Penske for investing in something Detroit does need. Then, yes, once the city is on its feet it will be more than willing to run and upkeep it.

No one is expressing disdain for private enterprise wanting to invest in infrastructure [[Where the City and State can't or won't.).

The disdain arises because Roger Penske and Dan Gilbert don't know the limits of their expertise. Do you think Roger Penske is ever going to ride this thing?

**Detroitnerd** · September-05-13, 02:14 PM

It's sad, too, because light rail has been a huge success story in U.S. cities for the last decade.

But Penske and Gilbert don't understand urban planning. And what they're creating is a parking shuttle, not a rapid transit system. One we'll be on the hook to pay for, just like the People Mover.

People say don't make the perfect the enemy of the good. Only thing is, this "system" isn't really that good at all. It's there for the prestige of the funders, not for the public that needs mass transit.

**rb336** · September-05-13, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

It's sad, too, because light rail has been a huge success story in U.S. cities for the last decade.

But Penske and Gilbert don't understand urban planning. And what they're creating is a parking shuttle, not a rapid transit system. One we'll be on the hook to pay for, just like the People Mover.

People say don't make the perfect the enemy of the good. Only thing is, this "system" isn't really that good at all. It's there for the prestige of the funders, not for the public that needs mass transit.

some of the more successful "new" rail transit systems started out just like M-1 Rail, linking two vibrant areas, and they grew from there

**Detroitnerd** · September-05-13, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by rb336

some of the more successful "new" rail transit systems started out just like M-1 Rail, linking two vibrant areas, and they grew from there

If it has so many stops that it is not as fast as a car, it's not rapid transit.

What really irritates me is, you know, this isn't "rocket surgery." Transit planners know center-running light rail with few stops works. It works wonders. They put the proposals before the public and they knew. They chose center-running. Even the people defending the plan essentially say, yes, it's not the best plan we could have. Well? We're going to be stuck paying for it. So if we're going to be stuck paying for it, why not have the best plan possible?

Oh, no ... something or other about resenting rich people, or not making the perfect the enemy of the good, or something about how really great systems sprang from such absurd origins... pfffftt ...

**motz** · September-05-13, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by rb336

some of the more successful "new" rail transit systems started out just like M-1 Rail, linking two vibrant areas, and they grew from there

Don't quote me, but there are several cities where a small light rail system between two vibrant rail systems was initially put in, and from there the surrounding neighborhoods started clamoring to become the next leg of the light rail. I don't think the system is ideal, but as someone who lives in Woodbridge and often times is in Midtown, I could see this being of a big use to me. I love going downtown, but often times don't feel like biking and honestly hate taking my car down there. Any person who says "Oh you can just drive down there" forgets that a lot of the people in Downtown/Midtown/New Center moved there so they would have to use their car LESS. This helps accomplish that goal. Its not ideal, but its something.

**Gistok** · September-05-13, 02:53 PM

Whenever I take busloads of tourists or just individuals to Detroit, the People Mover is a must. Do I like that it's not used more often... NO. Do I like that it's not paying for its'self... NO. Do I care that it's old technology... NO.

I like the CONVENIENCE of it, and it's not going away...

**Detroitnerd** · September-05-13, 03:03 PM

"Stop picking on Dan Gilbert!"

**drjeff** · September-05-13, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

People Mover doesn't take you anywhere you can't walk in 15 minutes. This new system is different: It doesn't take you anywhere you can't drive in five minutes. In fact, the tremendous amount of stops [[all ensured by the private backing) mean it will be a bottleneck in any future mass transit system it is a part of.

If you can drive from Grand Blvd to Campus Martius in 5 minutes, I think you may be breaking a few laws.

**Detroitnerd** · September-05-13, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by drjeff

If you can drive from Grand Blvd to Campus Martius in 5 minutes, I think you may be breaking a few laws.

Haha. Point taken.

**dtowncitylover** · September-05-13, 03:56 PM

But that's what we're trying to do. Creating an urban environment where a car isn't needed.

And go ahead and pick on Gilbert. But they're all taking initiative on something that he doesn't have to.

**professorscott** · September-05-13, 04:14 PM

Another perspective on where to put light rail when it runs in a street, talking about the current DC project:

http://urbanplacesandspaces.blogspot...cement-of.html

By the way, M1 Rail is not by any means rapid transit, nor is it meant to be. It's a connector between two areas of the City that are doing pretty well. Everyone agrees that rapid transit is something else entirely. As others have said, it makes it pleasanter to live in the area car-free, or to visit several places in Detroit and only have to park your car one time.

It's not what it's not, but it is what it is.

**stasu1213** · September-05-13, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

Fall is from September 21-December 21. So it's not even fall yet. I don't think we expected them to break ground at 12:01 AM September 1.

We don't have to like this plan, but we have to accept it. The powers that be, albeit private powers that rarely do these kinds of things, are building this. No one of us have the money or resources do such a projects, in fact neither does the city or the state. I loved the DTOGS plan and jumped for joy when they released that animated video of the plan.

Statsu, I know you've been skeptical all along so I won't chide you for feeling as such. I feel a little of the same way. But I'm gonna stay a bit hopeful. I think the private powers do know that transit is good. And these powers aren't the Fords or the men on the Fourteenth Floor. I think any person who still thinks the Big 3 would try to sabotage this is a conspiracy theorist. The Big 3 have seen the rise of light rail systems across North America, and a metro system in LA, once of the car driving capital of the world, and probably still is.

You would think the Big 3 would have given alot more time and effort into creating a better Detroit so their location of their brands has the same respect and power they did.

I am not skeptical on Gilbert and Penske building the rail system but the city or state putting roadblocks in the way stalling the project. Remember; this project was to be up and running by now had not the city and state tried to stretch it to the suburbs and then cancelled at the last minute for RTA. This plan was implemented in 2008 and was hoping to be running by 2011.

**Detroitnerd** · September-05-13, 04:17 PM

I'm not picking on Dan Gilbert, though I suppose I could find many things about Dan Gilbert that rub me the wrong way. [[For a city going broke, Detroit sure passes out tax abatements like candy to our big capitalists, for instance. Then they essentially take the transfer of the wealth from poor to rich and engage in "philanthrapitalism" -- on their terms, of course.)

Basically, we had a good plan for rapid mass transit. The powers that be have cut away at it, by degrees, and we're left with a parking shuttle. I'm not happy about that, nor do I think anybody should be.

Would you trust a rocket scientist to do brain surgery on you? Or a brain surgeon to devise a rocket ship?

Detroit's business leaders are going to get what they want. And who will end up paying the price? And who will walk away scot-free?

**wolverine** · September-05-13, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Oh, yes. This curbside light rail is going to be wonderful. Of course, even though it seems that every transit planner in the world thinks curbside light rail is an idiotic idea, deep down they really just resent Dan Gilbert's money.

When cars are zipping by light rail vehicles that are stuck behind somebody's illegally parked hooptie, waiting for a tow truck, metro Detroiters will have even more reasons to laugh at "mass transit."

I've never understood why it's curbside. It's non-functional curbside and operates like a bus. Buses can be bad because they get stuck in traffic and a transit rider should never have to experience traffic congestion. The whole point of taking public transit is to get from point A to B very fast and not have to deal with waiting for other cars getting out of the way. Yeah, I know this isn't "rapid transit." But that doesn't matter. Success is speed regardless. The M1 rail shouldn't be a pleasure ride down Woodward. It should have utility that people will actually appreciate and want to ride it because they know they can reliably reach their destinations at the same time, every time.

By having it in the center, you can still have left turn lanes on the tracks. This is because left turns are signaled so as the train approaches from behind, motorists are given a left green arrow to clear the trackway and the train can continue without slowing down or stopping.

You can discourage motorists from parking in transit vehicle ROW with astronomical fines. Usually something on the low end of $1000. If they fail to pay that fine in reasonable time, they could have their drivers license suspended. If they attempt to drive, their plate will be scanned, car pulled over and impounded and not released until the fine is paid in full.

We've implemented so many bicycle lanes and bus lanes in Chicago but initially many motorists refuse to acknowledge their limited access and restrictions. Started out with warnings, but then strict enforcement and very high fines made people learn quickly enough.