DPD Cops v. Coney Patrons -- Probable Cause or Testosterone-Fueled Pi$$ing Contest

[mam2009]

I think some folks really don't realize how fruitless it is to be defiant to cops. The odds are always in their favor in that critical decision making moment. Now that I've gotten that out of the way...

...Soooooo did the officers decide to investigate the men based on probable cause, based on the bruising of their egos or was it something else?

I appreciate my law enforcement officers, but I certainly don't want my tax dollars being wasted because some wannabe schoolyard bully got his wittle feewings hurt because so & so said something he didn't like or looked at him funny!!!!

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/23...t#WNPoll132266

[Hamtragedy]

I've had my run-ins with overly aggressive Detroit cops, and I'm white, and I'm from here. The time and energy wasted by these officers on two educated black men [[in this case) is typical of some of the BS I've witnessed.

The statement "Let me see your ID," when you know you've done nothing wrong pisses me off more than anything. Of course, the response "What the fuck for?" is a sure bet to get a free ride in a police car, so I let my blood boil and hand it over to the assholes. Of my 40 plus years in this community, I still can't imagine what it's like to be black under the same circumstances, dare I call it duress.

That being said, I still don't know why anyone from a neighboring community would want to come to Detroit to be a police officer for 30K/yr. other than to bust a few people's skulls.

[brizee]

So when Detroit Police claim they can't respond to actual crimes in under ten hours is this the lack of personnel and heavy case load they talk about?

Just fuck with people for no reason. Because they're black most people won't even feel they did anything wrong. Regardless that they're college students, majoring in law enforcement and criminal justice no less.

[Chinman]

You’ve probably seen old movies where the protagonist is approached by a Nazi or Soviet guard and ordered to “show your papers.” We know that’s a tell-tale sign of a police state. So if police ever ask you to show ID during your travels, it’s natural to feel violated.
In a free society, citizens who are minding their own business are not obligated to “show their papers” to police. In fact, in the United States there’s no law requiring citizens to carry identification of any kind.
So when can police ask for ID?

Carrying an ID is generally required if you’re driving a vehicle or a passenger on a commercial airline. These requirements have been upheld on the slippery premise that individuals who prefer not to carry ID can choose not to drive or fly.
From here, ID laws only get more complicated. In Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, the Supreme Court upheld state laws requiring citizens to reveal their identity when officers have reasonable suspicion to believe criminal activity may be taking place. Commonly known as “stop-and-identify” statutes, these laws permit police to arrest criminal suspects who refuse to identify themselves.
As of 2012, 24 states had stop-and-identify laws. Regardless of your state’s law, keep in mind that police can never compel you to identify yourself without reasonable suspicion to believe you’re involved in illegal activity.
But how can you tell if an officer asking you to identify yourself has reasonable suspicion? Remember, police need reasonable suspicion to detain you. So one way to tell if they have reasonable suspicion is to determine if you’re free to go. You can do this by saying “Excuse me officer. Are you detaining me, or am I free to go?” If the officer says you’re free to go, leave immediately and don’t answer any more questions.
If you’re detained, you’ll have to decide if withholding your identity is worth the possibility of arrest or a prolonged detention. In cases of mistaken identity, revealing who you are might help to resolve the situation quickly. On the other hand, if you’re on parole in California, for example, revealing your identity could lead to a legal search. Knowing your state’s laws can help you make the best choice.
Remember that the officer’s decision to detain you will not always hold up in court. Reasonable suspicion is a vague legal standard, and police often make mistakes. So if you’re searched or arrested following an officer’s ID request, you may contact an attorney to discuss the incident and explore your legal options.

[aj3647]

Just fuck with people for no reason. Because they're black most people won't even feel they did anything wrong. Regardless that they're college students, majoring in law enforcement and criminal justice no less.

What does the fact that they are college students have to do with anything? Are college students immune from breaking the law? I can tell you that is certainly not the case in Ann Arbor. And it's not like the police can just look at you and tell you're a college student, especially when you're nowhere near a campus.

The fact that they are in college just seems totally immaterial to the story. Either they struck the officer, or they didn't. It wouldn't make a difference if they have doctorates or are high school dropouts.

[Jimaz]

Can't show probable cause? Jail the pigs.

[firstandten]

What does the fact that they are college students have to do with anything? Are college students immune from breaking the law? I can tell you that is certainly not the case in Ann Arbor. And it's not like the police can just look at you and tell you're a college student, especially when you're nowhere near a campus.

The fact that they are in college just seems totally immaterial to the story. Either they struck the officer, or they didn't. It wouldn't make a difference if they have doctorates or are high school dropouts.

Officially the brothers were charged with assaulting a police officer but the video tells a different story. It was pretty apparent that the brothers were profiled. When the brothers didn't show their proper respect according to the officers they went to the "show me your ID" line. The brothers asked why and one thing led to another. Unlike you I feel if the brothers broke any law they where baited into it. That was unprofessional behavior by the cops and shouldn't be tolerated. We have enough real crime and real criminals in Detroit to have cops harassing a couple of college educated kids. That's the point brizee was trying to make. Because these cops profiled those kids they felt and were going to treat those brothers like the run of the mill neighborhood gang bangers. When it became clear to the cops that the brothers had a little more going for them than the kids they normally run into, instead of backing off they doubled down on their foolishness. Crap like that is the reason the city pays millions in lawsuits.

[Marlon_JB2]

I've been in a similar situation before, with Dearborn Police. But I was so scared and I knew that I had nothing to hide that I just complied even though I KNEW that they were violating my rights.

Here's the story, copied and pasted from another forum... I know EXACTLY how they feel.

Here's a story and transcript

WARNING: STORY IS EXTREMELY LONG, AND TAKES PLACE BETWEEN 5:00PM - 5:30PM

BTW: I'm dressed in jeans that fit. They did NOT sag, nor were they TIGHT, [[I hate both) although kinda short. I also had on a light gray hoodie, and under that is a green and blue plaid button up shirt, and white Mid-top Nike Air Force 1s. White socks.

Found an iPod on Craigslist. As you guys and girls know, I've been going insane for the last few months since my iPod was stolen in November '09. Search for "Someone broke into my Jeep Part Dos"

So I got desperate and couldn't afford a new one because I had a 100 mile a day commute back and forth to school, and another 20 miles back and forth to work each day of the week. Gas costs serious $$$$ and right now my car insurance payment is still a few days late. [[OK so I'm gonna pay it right after I make this post.) Saw a nice deal on Craigslist for $120... 80GB iPod. Had to have it.

So I talked to the dude, after several text messages and today, phone calls, we set up a meeting in Dearborn, MI at a Starbucks. Come to find out we are at two different Starbucks locations after I specifically said the Starbucks at Michigan and Oakwood. He's at Michigan and Oakman. Ugh. So we ended up meeting in the parking lot at Fairlane Mall, next to the Macy's and JC Penney. I'm driving the WK [[of course, refuse to drive the Kia), and he comes around in a blue '07ish Cadillac Escalade. Dude is about my age, maybe a few years older.

Him: Hey, sorry about the misunderstanding.
Me: That's alright.
Him: [[Hands me the iPod)
Me: Can I turn it on and plug it in to check it out?
Him: Sure.
Me: [[Checks out the iPod, turns out to be OK.)
Him: Everything OK?
Me: Yeah. [[I hand over the cash) Thanks.
Him: Yeah, I get these all the time, just let me know if you need another one, or know someone else who does.
Me: [[I get kinda suspicious, but OK, whatever, I don't know this dude, he could just be a seller of refurb products, as this iPod was refurb-sealed)

He leaves.

So I'm sitting in the parking lot still trying to get everything synced up.

I see Dearborn Police running around. Didn't think ANYTHING of it until they creeped up behind me, turned on the lights.

Me: WTF? [[To myself)
Me: Hello officer. How are you today?
Officer #1: Hi. Could you step out of the vehicle? No wait, turn the vehicle off, step out of the vehicle, and give me the keys.
Officer #1: Do you have anything on you that I should know about?
Me: No.
Me: Does what he asks me to do, which involves putting my hands on top of my head and such.
Officer #1: So what are you doing here?
Me: Why do I have to go through all of this?
Officer #1: Oh someone may have called in some suspicious activity.
Me: I met a guy right here, I purchased an iPod from him, found it on Craigslist.
Officer #1: [[Continues to pat me down from head to toe)
Officer #1: What's your name?
Me: [[Gives him my full legal, government name, all 26 letters of it.)
Officer #1: How old are you?
Me: 22.
Officer #1: Turn around and face towards him. [[This is Officer #2, who just came out of absolutely NOWHERE, dressed in street clothes.)
Officer #2: Where's your ID?
Me: It's in my wallet, inside the cupholder.
Me: [[Walks to go get it.)
Officer #1: No, come back here now, he'll go get it for you.
Me: [[Goes back to my place I guess.)

Officer #2 [[Decides to go touch my wallet, look for my ID, and gives it to Officer #1, and I guess he goes to type the information in his funky little computer.)

Officer #1: Is there anything wrong with your license? Is it revoked? Suspended?
Me: If it's suspended or revoked, I darn sure do not know about it and I'd appreciate it if you told me because I make a living off of my driver's license.

Officer #1: Who's vehicle is this?
Me: Mine.
Officer #1: Where do you work?

[[At this point I'm started to get really frustrated)

Me: Metropolitan Parking Services located in Tower 200 of the GM Renaissance Center, Downtown Detroit.
Officer #1: Do you work full time?
Me: No.
Officer #1: So what else do you do?
Me: I'm a college student.

Here comes Officer #3!!!!!!! He pulls up in another squad car, this one unmarked, and parks in front of my Jeep. The Jeep is blocked in at this point!!!!!!! Even if I wanted to, I couldn't run and go anywhere!!!!

Officer #1: Where do you go to school?
Me: Eastern Michigan University [[As if this wasn't evident by all the school logo crap on and inside my Jeep)
Officer #1: How long have you been going to school there?
Me: Fall 2005.
Officer #1: How come you haven't graduated yet?
Me: I took a year off to take care of my mother, she was sick and couldn't walk.
Officer #1: Oh.

Meanwhile Officer #2 is STILL searching my Jeep, and Officer #3 is assisting.

Officer #2: What's with the black leather gloves?
Me: They're my motorcycle and scooter riding gloves.
Officer #2: Is that what this helmet is for?
Me: Yes.
Officer #2: Where is the motorcycle or scooter?
Me: At home. In the garage.
Officer #2: How is the computer hooked up? You got a power plug in here?
Me: Yeah, the power inverter is next to the console.
Officer #2: Is THIS A POLICE SCANNER?
Me: No, it's a CB radio.
Officer #2: What do you need that for?
Me: Trail riding.
Officer #2: HOW ARE YOU ABLE TO AFFORD ALL THIS STUFF?
Me: I WORK SIR. MY MOM TOLD ME THAT IF I WANTED SOMETHING, I HAD TO WORK HARD TO EARN THE MONEY TO BUY IT!

Officer #3: What's with the tires?
Me: I'm trying to sell them but nobody seems to want them because they don't have much life left in them but I figured SOMEBODY would possibly need them to get by.
Officer #3: Where did they come from?
Me: The Jeep you're looking at.
Officer #3: What size are they?
Me: P245/65R17.
Officer #3: How many miles do they have on them?
Me: 39000.

Officer #2 and Officer #3 are now in my cargo area.

Officer #2: What's in the box?
Me: Subwoofers.
Officer #2: Anything else inside of them?
Me: No.

Officer #3 Asks me why I'm there...... this is the 3rd time now....

Officer #3: So where are you going to get the songs from?
Me: My computer.
Officer #3: Are you going to sell music?
Me: No.
Officer #3: Now don't lie to me, WHY ARE YOU HERE?
Me: I just told you and your fellow officer here, why exactly I'm here.
Officer #3: Now do I have to go inside to that computer to prove it?
Me: Go right ahead. [[I wasn't gonna give them my password )
Officer #2: Hey wait you've got two iPods in here.
Me: Yeah, that one belongs to my sister.

They all chit chat for a little bit.

Officer #1: Where are you going now?
Me: I'm going HOME SO I CAN GET READY FOR WORK, I HAVE TO BE THERE AT 7:15PM.
Officer #1: Here. [[He hands me my license back.)
Me: [[Hops back in the Jeep, puts SOME Of the stuff back where I had it, there were papers, and other random crap I carry around in the Jeep everywhere, seats down, etc etc.... then discover I have no keys.)

Me: Yeah uh...
Officer #3: Yeah I guess you need your keys huh?
Me: YEAH, I GUESS I DO NEED MY KEYS.
Me: [[Drives off like a bat out of hell. )

I am just so unbelievably angry right now. There's some stuff that went down that I cannot remember or just can't think of right now, this isn't everything.

So disappointed.

Words cannot describe. At all.

To sum up everything, I just wanted to make it to work that day... and class the next day.

[firstandten]

Sounds like the Dearborn PD was having a slow day and you came along to give them something to do.

[Marlon_JB2]

Pretty much.

[gnome]

So you cash transaction from a guy in an Escalde in a parking lot and you wonder why cops roll on you?
Really ? They asked you the same questions over and over to rattle you and see if your story would change.

If they would have smacked you around, towed your car and kept you in jail for a few hours, you might have something to complain about.

But right now, you sound like a ninney. And it sounds like you bought a stolen i-thingy.

[Downriviera]

Fairlane Mall parking lot is a bad idea. Should have stuck with Starbucks for the meet up.

[Marlon_JB2]

gnome, all I have to say is...

NOT SURPRISED by your reply. And I have yet to read where I wondered WHY this happened.

All I wanted to know is why I was targeted for their actions. THEIR actions however, I was expecting as soon as they pulled up behind me.

Thank you for putting words in my mouth. I have a few members in my family in law enforcement and not one of them said that they had justifiable cause to try ANY of that crap.

I didn't do anything to get smacked around but trust me, had I done so, I'd have been in the exact same position as these two guys. They didn't touch me, but oh boy if they did... I'd have been all over the news too.

[Detroit Stylin]

Fairlane Mall parking lot is a bad idea. Should have stuck with Starbucks for the meet up.

Doesn't justify violating his rights

[iheartthed]

So you cash transaction from a guy in an Escalde in a parking lot and you wonder why cops roll on you?
Really ? They asked you the same questions over and over to rattle you and see if your story would change.

If they would have smacked you around, towed your car and kept you in jail for a few hours, you might have something to complain about.

But right now, you sound like a ninney. And it sounds like you bought a stolen i-thingy.

You sound like an idiot right now. According to his story the officers did not ask for permission to search his vehicle. They are supposed to ask permission to do that. They were also supposed to ask permission to search his pockets. The cops thought they had a drug bust and that this wouldn't matter if they got lucky. They didn't get lucky. They should be reprimanded for what they did.

[jackie5275]

I just want to clarify was this the actual Deaborn PD or the quasi-Dearborn PD Fairlane Town Center Policy Authority?

[Gistok]

I was sitting in a parked car at the Ruby Tuesday in Farmington Hills at Orchard Lake Rd. with a friend at night after we had left the restaurant. We had only been in the car for 2 minutes, when a Farmington Hills police officer pulled up, and asked what we were doing, to which I replied talking. He asked to search the vehicle, to which I politely said NO... and that was the end of it.

[EastsideAl]

I see DPD engaged in this kind of activity all over the place these days. I also seem them pulling cars over like crazy on major local streets - often with a flatbed at the ready nearby in case there is any juicy asset seizure action to be had.

And I think back to the night last year when I watched people stripping my neighbor's house, called the cops, and was told that they were no longer responding to calls unless it was your own house that was being invaded. But I could go by the district and make a report in the morning!

And my blood boils. We need police reform soooooo badly.

[firstandten]

So just because you aren't required by law to show ID you are permitted to get indignant when asked? These two are throwing what amounts to a temper tantrum over something exceedingly minor; taking three seconds to pull out your wallet does not harm your person or demean you as a human being.

Instead we have asshats making Nazi comparisons about 'show me your papers'.

Yes, it does demean you as a human being when you know you are being harassed and profiled. Something "minor" is in the eye of the beholder. The reality is that you have a segment of cops who abuse their authority and feel they can do and say whatever they want to people and make up probable cause if they don't have it to begin with. That is not good policing and it does not advance there mission which is to serve and protect.

[Gushi1124]

I'm white and I have been harassed in Sterling Heights, warren and Hamtown, it happens life goes on

[aj3647]

You sound like an idiot right now. According to his story the officers did not ask for permission to search his vehicle. They are supposed to ask permission to do that. They were also supposed to ask permission to search his pockets. The cops thought they had a drug bust and that this wouldn't matter if they got lucky. They didn't get lucky. They should be reprimanded for what they did.

Then the poster should have filed a formal complaint and contacted an attorney. Even though he indicated his story happened a while ago, he said nothing about pursuing action against the officers.

We're getting only one side of the story here. Remember that before you condemn the officers as guilty.

[firstandten]

Claiming that you were racially profiled in an area where 9.5 out of every 10 people is the same race as you are is idiotic.

I didn't say racially profiled I said profiled period. In case you don't know blacks are profiled not only by color but by economic standing. What is idiotic is that you don't understand that. I said in an earlier post that the police probably profiled them as gangbangers or the criminal element. They do that by how they dress, the neighborhood they are in etc, etc. Hell we all know they are black. Dude, wake up !!

[softailrider]

I was sitting in a parked car at the Ruby Tuesday in Farmington Hills at Orchard Lake Rd. with a friend at night after we had left the restaurant. We had only been in the car for 2 minutes, when a Farmington Hills police officer pulled up, and asked what we were doing, to which I replied talking. He asked to search the vehicle, to which I politely said NO... and that was the end of it.

I stopped eating at Ruby Tuesday because I think the food is crappy. I have eaten at that location many times in the past, even though it's near a major intersection, I can't ever remember seeing a F.H police car in that lot.

[Crumbled_pavement]

So just because you aren't required by law to show ID you are permitted to get indignant when asked? These two are throwing what amounts to a temper tantrum over something exceedingly minor; taking three seconds to pull out your wallet does not harm your person or demean you as a human being.

Instead we have asshats making Nazi comparisons about 'show me your papers'.

I'm a black male, so let me enlighten you. You're right, the two brothers should have just shown their ID and we believe [[keyword: believe) the incident would have basically have been over with. Still, that does not give the officer the right to assault either of them. The one officer put his hand in the man's chest and he simply pushed his arm away. So that in your twisted world gives the officer the right to swing on BOTH of the brothers? Sorry, wrong answer.

[iheartthed]

Then the poster should have filed a formal complaint and contacted an attorney. Even though he indicated his story happened a while ago, he said nothing about pursuing action against the officers.

We're getting only one side of the story here. Remember that before you condemn the officers as guilty.

He absolutely should have filed a complaint. And, as I said, based on the story that he told us, they should have been reprimanded. Now if the cops dispute that the events of the story were different that's something. But if they corroborate his version of the story then they should be reprimanded. The person sounding like an idiot that I was responding to above was defending the actions of the officers according to the op's story...