Quicken Loans moving downtown

**rbdetsport** · July-13-09, 12:08 AM

Well it is official that quicken is moving downtown! Unfortunetly it's not as big as previously assumed. They will move in to the compuware building which has been much speculated about recently. I am on my iPod so I can't paste the article from the detroitnews but if someone can do that that'd be great. Anyone think that if the economy improves that they will move on with their bigger plans? I can't believe the package of 200 million was turned down even in this horrible economy.

**ASR89** · July-13-09, 12:25 AM

http://www.detnews.com/article/20090...907130359/1031

This is good news for Downtown Detroit.

**Novine** · July-13-09, 06:16 AM

Does that mean the money that the DDA had set aside to put towards a new building can now be used for its previous purpose to help rehab and secure older buildings?

**bailey** · July-13-09, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by Novine

Does that mean the money that the DDA had set aside to put towards a new building can now be used for its previous purpose to help rehab and secure older buildings?

More importantly, why are public funds being used at all to subsidize the poaching of a business from Livonia? Quicken is not building a HQ downtown to bring all its employees under one roof, they are moving a small fraction of their employees from one leased space to another leased space.

Nobody has a problem with public funds being used for that? Really? I find that to be kinda funny. I mean, imagine if this transaction were reversed...say 10-15 million in public development dollars to help Compuware move 1500 employees to some leased space up on Big Beaver. After all, we need to help Troy with it's vacant office space. right?

**digitalvision** · July-13-09, 08:32 AM

Bailey, there used to be a state law that prevented that such thing, it was repealed awhile ago. It's perfectly legal and HAS been done to Detroit in the past. Only recently have the scales tipped the other way at all.

In theory, however, I agree with you. Our competition as a region is Dubai and Denver; not Livonia [[i.e. ourselves). I don't like using public monies to subsidize infighting, either.

I personally think that with our upcoming layoffs Detroit should cut even more and make the tax structure comparable. I think in 10 years, the revenues will rebound as people want to be in the city and invest; but business-wise, without incentives, in most cases it makes no financial sense.

**bailey** · July-13-09, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by digitalvision

Bailey, there used to be a state law that prevented that such thing, it was repealed awhile ago. It's perfectly legal and HAS been done to Detroit in the past. Only recently have the scales tipped the other way at all.

In theory, however, I agree with you. Our competition as a region is Dubai and Denver; not Livonia [[i.e. ourselves). I don't like using public monies to subsidize infighting, either.

I personally think that with our upcoming layoffs Detroit should cut even more and make the tax structure comparable. I think in 10 years, the revenues will rebound as people want to be in the city and invest; but business-wise, without incentives, in most cases it makes no financial sense.

I guess we basically agree. However, with regard to your last statement there... shouldn't subsidies be coming from Detroit if it needs to lure the business and not the state tax payer? Just because it's no longer illegal, doesn't make the subsidy ok.

But anyway, I was just noting that if this were the reverse, all hell would break loose on this board. Nothing about the current move benefits anyone but Quicken. They are doing nothing but renting some empty space in a building that was already heavily subsidized...and being given more subsidy to make it happen. But that just results in silence on here...because it's 1500 employees downtown for 8 hours a day. Not many of them are going to be doing any moving based on such a sketchy move. temporary lease in space that is "temporarily" empty. Would you move your family on that information? There might be a few more renters downtown, which is nice. But, they were only poached from nearby communities.

I just think it's funny that over on the "death of the suburbs" thread there is a lengthy discussion on commuting costs and sprawl.... and here we are subsidizing the reverse. Taking 1500 jobs from a bedroom community and moving them 20 miles away. taking a lot of folks from short commute to long. and we're all paying for it.

**DLife** · July-13-09, 08:55 AM

How many employees does Quicken have in Livonia?? Will there be anyone working in Livonia still after the move?

**digitalvision** · July-13-09, 09:02 AM

You don't have disagreement from me - I hate incentives, but they're the way of the world. You know, years ago, there were Federal incentives to make people live farther away from where they worked. The government has always done this crap, republicans, democrats, doesn't matter it just the dollars go with whomever's in power's agenda.

I personally support walkable, sustainable communities wherever they may be.

However, once I realized just how much of downtown is propped up with government money, I was shocked.

Literally, there's very few new projects in the past years that don't have DDA/government loans, or state/federal incentives. That's a warning sign that without government help, development downtown is not sustainable as a free market thing, unless you get Keffalinos-esque places, which is what the market can actually support financially.

**Danny** · July-13-09, 09:06 AM

Having Quicken Loans move its WHQ's from Livonia to Downtown Detroit in OCP Compuware Building a cost cutting great ideal. That way when have some more money and if our economy stablizes, then Quicken will consider building a new WHQ in Downtown Detroit.

Stosh · July-13-09, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by digitalvision

You don't have disagreement from me - I hate incentives, but they're the way of the world. You know, years ago, there were Federal incentives to make people live farther away from where they worked. The government has always done this crap, republicans, democrats, doesn't matter it just the dollars go with whomever's in power's agenda.

I personally support walkable, sustainable communities wherever they may be.

However, once I realized just how much of downtown is propped up with government money, I was shocked.

Literally, there's very few new projects in the past years that don't have DDA/government loans, or state/federal incentives. That's a warning sign that without government help, development downtown is not sustainable as a free market thing, unless you get Keffalinos-esque places, which is what the market can actually support financially.

You might want to let Detroit Dad know this, on the other threads about sustainability.

**Detroit500** · July-13-09, 10:15 AM

In a lot of ways, using existing construction is better than building new. Yes for a short term impact on the economy, building new is always nice, but as far as sustainability, as well as a long-term goal for Detroit having higher occupancy rates in existing structures is actually a really good thing. It's all about supply and demand, currently we have too many office buildings in Detroit compared to demand, and every time you build a new one, it makes that ratio even worse.

**Rocko** · July-13-09, 10:29 AM

500, your exactly right! If they fill the Compuware closer to capacity, then the next place - large or small - that wants to move downtown will have to look somewhere else. Also, this could be a real boon for the shops at Compuware - even if the Borders closes, hopefully this will provide the impetus for the Eastern Market Group to go-ahead with their plan to put in a small grocery store in its place [[http://www.modeldmedia.com/inthenews...rder19809.aspx), not to mention increased business for other nearby restaurants and stores.

It would be nice if this could somehow jumpstart something with 1001 Woodward, even if it was only some ground floor retail or something. 1700 employees is better than 0 employees and Quicken will now have their foot in the downtown door so they can expand more later.

**Novine** · July-13-09, 10:30 AM

"That's a warning sign that without government help, development downtown is not sustainable as a free market thing, unless you get Keffalinos-esque places, which is what the market can actually support financially."

If you cut off the government funding for freeways, most of the suburbs would be unsustainable as a free market thing. Just about all development is subsidized in one way or another by the government.

crawford · July-13-09, 10:40 AM

Any Quicken employees here?

Very good for downtown, but I'm sure employees are concerned about two things:

1. Who will pay my city income tax?

2. Who will pay for my parking?

Unless these two issues are addressed, all employees are taking a pay cut.

**Fury13** · July-13-09, 10:44 AM

The bottom line here is: Dan Gilbert's grandiose plans for making a major impact on downtown Detroit have turned into one big yawn.

**French777** · July-13-09, 10:44 AM

wouldn't they just park at the Compuware Garage?

**digitalvision** · July-13-09, 10:47 AM

I'm no sprawl fan, but for fun, I'll go down your rabbit hole, Novine ;-)

Freeways are for general consumption. I "benefit" regardless of which city I live in. If I need to go to Port Huron from Detroit, I-94 benefits me very directly. A mass transit line from Pontiac to Detroit would also benefit me very directly, but also everyone along the line.

The government is paying for something that everyone shares and can benefit from. When the government subsidizes businesses like this, it's picking winners and losers, which is contrary to a free market economy. Government should provide infrastructure, but directly picking winners and losers I do not agree with.

**digitalvision** · July-13-09, 10:53 AM

Crawford - When I heard that DPD is moving their cars, it was a sign that confirmed what I had garnered a few months ago on this deal.

They're just going to park in Compuware. Or is now CompuQuicken? Quickenware? Compicken? MMMMM Teryaki Compicken. Tasty. :-)

I was also aware of employees already who have made the move to the city. I can verify at least a few new home owners, mostly in the neighborhoods oddly enough, due to Quicken.

As to pay cut - they've got a job. Deal. Every time someone new comes to the city people say "Oh I'm not taking the cut" or whatever, and what happens? Jack. It's all indignant bluster.

crawford · July-13-09, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by French777

wouldn't they just park at the Compuware Garage?

I know there's tons of parking. My question is whether its free. If they're paying, the employees are taking a pay cut.

**sturge** · July-13-09, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by French777

wouldn't they just park at the Compuware Garage?

Yes, thats where they will park....for free.

**Gistok** · July-13-09, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by bailey

More importantly, why are public funds being used at all to subsidize the poaching of a business from Livonia? Quicken is not building a HQ downtown to bring all its employees under one roof, they are moving a small fraction of their employees from one leased space to another leased space.

Nobody has a problem with public funds being used for that? Really? I find that to be kinda funny. I mean, imagine if this transaction were reversed...say 10-15 million in public development dollars to help Compuware move 1500 employees to some leased space up on Big Beaver. After all, we need to help Troy with it's vacant office space. right?

Umm..... Warren mayor Jim Fouts trying to lure the GM HQ from the RenCen to Warren with tax breaks and incentives... does that ring a bell?

**Novine** · July-13-09, 11:13 AM

"The government is paying for something that everyone shares and can benefit from. When the government subsidizes businesses like this, it's picking winners and losers, which is contrary to a free market economy. Government should provide infrastructure, but directly picking winners and losers I do not agree with."

Except when they build interchanges which leads to huge profits for some property owners and no gain for others and the same for communities that live and die by the location of those improvements. I know there is a difference between direct business subsidies and infrastructure but where a freeway is built and who benefits from it and those who lose is just as much a game of picking winners and losers. We like to hide that behind some claim of general public benefit when the public benefit is minimal and the private gains can be massive.

**bailey** · July-13-09, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Umm..... Warren mayor Jim Fouts trying to lure the GM HQ from the RenCen to Warren with tax breaks and incentives... does that ring a bell?

IIRC, Fouts did not have the MEDG footing the bill. It was WARREN waiving WARREN taxes. [[plus GM has a massive presence there already). I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with Quicken wanting state tax dollars to offset the costs of a pointless move. Public funds to build...renovating ...ok, I'll go along. Not the best thing, but at least it's adding something . Tax subsidy so it can move some of it's workers to a temporary space is insane. If it were a company getting the same deal to go the other direction the protests and angry letter writing would reach feaver pitch around here.

**OriginalG313** · July-13-09, 12:21 PM

The Quicken employees will also be able to use the Child Care, Cafe, and Wellness center in the Compuware building. And, they'll have access to the DMC doctors around the corner. From what I've been told, other downtown companies use the facilities at Compuware. I'm pretty the employees in the Ernst & Young building use them.

**digitalvision** · July-13-09, 12:25 PM

Novine,

I remember doing research and remembering the exact same argument being made for train tracks through towns a hundred or hundred and twenty years ago. Would you be against trains? The location of the stop made or broke businesses and communities at that time.

Or is it an argument of convenience so you can bag on freeways? Same stuff, different day.

Every conveyance requiring public subsidy has the same issues. I bet the Romans had the same arguments for the first roads with horse-drawn carriage.