Suburbs are unsustainable?

[Downtown diva]

Many times on this board, I have read about the bad side of living in the suburbs....

one person says that the majority of the suburbs are unsustainable
a couple people claim that the suburbs are a bunch of parking lots, malls, etc...
still other people claim that the burbs are "vanilla"

so here's my question...and I am not trying to be a smart ass....

explain to me, why a family of four, making over 100,000k per year would want ot move to the City of Detroit. Explain to me what schools their children would go to. Also explainwhy the city is a better choice than these suburbs.

I don't see it, but I am willing to listen to these benefits.
.

[lilpup]

that would hardly be an argument since so few families make over $100K per year. The median annual household income in Michigan as of 2007 was $48K and has undoubtedly plummeted from there.

[Downtown diva]

alright...so lets say 48K.

Why would the AVERAGE family move to Detroit?

[Gannon]

This is going to be tough, because simply by CONSIDERING moving to the city, they prove themselves above average.

[reddog289]

I will put in my two cents before it gets ugly. Maybe they want to be urban pioneers or such and such.

[Downtown diva]

so cheerleading and pounding your chest aside, mr gannon, give me some reasons.

[French777]

I would Love to live in Detroit vs currently Rochester Hills! So Much Excitement in Detroit!

[Bearinabox]

Many times on this board, I have read about the bad side of living in the suburbs....

one person says that the majority of the suburbs are unsustainable
a couple people claim that the suburbs are a bunch of parking lots, malls, etc...
still other people claim that the burbs are "vanilla"

so here's my question...and I am not trying to be a smart ass....

explain to me, why a family of four, making over 100,000k per year would want ot move to the City of Detroit. Explain to me what schools their children would go to. Also explainwhy the city is a better choice than these suburbs.

I don't see it, but I am willing to listen to these benefits.
.

You're responding to two different arguments. One is that the suburban lifestyle is unsustainable in the long term, which is usually based on a prediction that energy will not continue to be as cheap or as readily available as it is now for very much longer. If, for example, gas goes to $8 or $10 or $15 a gallon, people in general will think long and hard about buying a house 50 miles from where they work. This is not to say that the entire population of suburban Detroit will move into the city overnight, just that there will be a gradual nationwide trend away from suburbia and toward higher-density communities. That is the sustainability argument. The other argument is that Detroit is a better or more interesting place to live than the suburbs, which is entirely a matter of opinion and has everything to do with individual people and their needs and wants. It is possible for a middle-class family to raise well-adjusted kids in either the city or the suburbs; it's easier in the suburbs, which is why most middle-class families choose to live there. Whether that makes the suburbs a "better choice" is up to the families themselves, and far be it for me or anyone else to tell them where or how to live.

[ASR89]

Hey did you guys hear Quicken is officially moving downtown? You can read about it in the link below.

http://www.detnews.com/article/20090...907130359/1031

[DetroitDad]

First put your thoughts on Detroit aside for just a minute. Let's consider that modern suburban life is not perfect, and really is an experiment in and of itself. Suburbia was a great escape from the problems of the old, dirty, smelly, crowded, and unsafe industrial monster that as Detroit. What we have found was suburbia in general created as many, if not more problems than it solved.

The Children:

http://campusmartiuschronicle.blogspot.com/

A new phenomenon around Campus Martius Park is that there are a lot of high school kids that come Downtown now to shop, or get ice cream, or to just hang out in Campus Martius. While one would guess that a lot of the high schoolers walk down from Cass Tech a few blocks up, I have been surprised to see many t-shirts with emblems of suburban schools printed on them. I guess maybe it shouldn't surprise me that our suburban children are venturing into our city center for the day. Many of Detroit's privately owned suburban shopping malls no longer let them hang out without a parent, and most suburban streets and parks are somewhat less attractive and interesting to walk down.

I like to quote James Howard Kunstler who said that the model of suburbia is all about the impoverishment of the public space, and the glorification of the private space.

Now don't get me wrong, I really have nothing against suburbia. It's the over protective parents who don't watch the kids, the parents who are move to a street without a sidewalk so their kids are not enticed to wonder away while they should be watching them, or the parents who resort to essentially building a arcade or an all out mall to keep the kids from entering the real world. Of course, for others suburbia can be a great and safe place to raise a child in a safe environment for most responsible parents. That is, suburbia is a great place until they reach the age of about ten.

Unfortunately, older suburban kids have no public spaces to hang out with their friends, and don't get toughened up enough by real world experiences, as they are stuck in their suburban home or subdivision "pod". Teens should be exploring the community, and getting ready to spread their wings and fly out into the real world. Instead, suburban children end up bored in their neighborhoods, and can turn to vandalism or torturing small animals behind the two car detached garage. Once a child reaches their teens, they are even more bored, often ending up getting into the liquor, gun, or medicine cabinets when mommy and daddy are out of town, or experimenting with drugs and sex in their parent's basements.

Preteens and teenagers are arguably too young to be doing some of the above mentioned activities. Teenagers no longer need protection, they need guidance, and they need public realms and a community that is safe without restricting freedoms. Teens also need communities that are easy to explore without mom or dad having to drive them everywhere. The deficiencies of suburbia are really showing up in the high amount of drug and alcohol abuse, pregnancy, and depression and suicide rates among suburban teens in this country. Right now, our suburban communities are just not living up to the wants and needs of the children who live in them.

Posted by DetroitDad at 7/07/2009 01:57:00 PM
5 comments

Pollution:

The few people who do regularly walk across [[or near) pedestrian bridges and along feeder streets face huge health risks from fine particle matter, the tiny pieces of that gritty sand on the side of the road that ends up air born. *Some of the risks associated with what I will call second hand driving is asthma, abnormal lung growth in children, bronchitic problems, lung cancer, and birth defects among other things - http://cfpub1.epa.gov/ncer_abstracts.../abstract/8459


Obesity and Divorce

Generally, this goes along with everyone sitting home and socializing, as well as driving everywhere. Our nation is said to be suffering a huge problem with obesity, which is just bizarre when you really think about it. What is most interesting about this, is that a lot of our drive time is spent being stuck in traffic. How strange is it that we wake up to exercise only to go in our car and sit in traffic, work, sit in traffic again, and then go and walk on the treadmill for an hour!? Why not just live in an area where you walk instead of drive 20 minutes to work or school? Some say they don't have time to exercise, thus they only drive; doesn't that assure an early death and burden on their family members? Some other people have said that that is just to much work for them, yet they work out; think of all the other things you could be doing instead of working out. You could be spending time with your friends or family.


Depression

Architecture, setting, and building design plays a role in our psychological state. When was the last time you worshipped at a place that didn't resemble a wooden or plastic casket? When was the last time you saw a school that didn't look like a prison? Grosse Pointe North and other Metro Detroit schools were actually designed by the same architect that designed Jackson Penitentiary by the way. When was the last time you saw anything but cheap houses and retail buildings built to last? When was the last time you saw a big box store that you actually enjoyed walking by? For more on this subject check out this link; http://www.fastcompany.com/blog/mich...n-architecture

[DetroitDad]

It's also worth noting what average means for middle class America. I recommend watching this very very good video explaining the crisis the middle class is currently facing. If you'd rather not watch the video, here is a text version of the video as well.

The Middle Class on the Precipice

http://harvardmagazine.com/2006/01/the-middle-class-on-the.html


The Coming Collapse of the Middle Class

[crawford]

The problem with all these arguments is that Detroit is built in a very similar manner to its suburbs. I doubt even 5% of Detroit city residents do much of their daily errands by foot. The vast majority of city residents have cars, which is even more notable considering that there are so many Detroiters with low incomes.

If 15 and Livernois is unsustainable, then so is 7 and Livernois. If the suburbs fail at some point, there is no reason to think that Detroit city proper would fare any better.

[DetroitDad]

Now that we know that the current middle class model is not sustainable and why it's not sustainable, let's look at the future of this unsustainable way of life. What will push it over the edge? Could it be increased storms from global warming? Could it be unrest in the Middle East? Could it be the coming food crisis? Could it be the aging infrastructure of America beginning to come apart just as we can't afford to fix it?

We also have a second mortgage crisis on the way in the home market, not to even mention the commercial market. That will mean less spending power and more layoffs. Here is a great 60 minutes video about the coming mortgage crisis that is supposed to be as big as the sub prime mess. I recommend watching; http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...n4666112.shtml

Quoted from that link;

A Second Mortgage Disaster On The Horizon?

Scott Pelley reports -- Dec. 14, 2008

New Wave Of Mortgage Rate Adjustments Could Force More Homeowners To Default

[[CBS) When it comes to bailouts of American business, Barney Frank and the Congress may be just getting started. Nearly two trillion tax dollars have been shoveled into the hole that Wall Street dug and people wonder where the bottom is.

As correspondent Scott Pelley reports, it turns out the abyss is deeper than most people think because there is a second mortgage shock heading for the economy. In the executive suites of Wall Street and Washington, you're beginning to hear alarm about a new wave of mortgages with strange names that are about to become all too familiar. If you thought sub-primes were insanely reckless wait until you hear what's coming.

[...]

In 2007, Tilson teamed up with Amherst Securities, an investment firm that specializes in mortgages. Amherst had done some financial detective work, analyzing the millions of mortgages that were bundled into those mortgage-backed securities that Wall Street was peddling. It found that the sub-primes, loans to the least credit-worthy borrowers, were defaulting. But Amherst also ran the numbers on what were supposed to be higher quality mortgages.

[...]

The trouble now is that the insanity didn't end with sub-primes. There were two other kinds of exotic mortgages that became popular, called "Alt-A" and "option ARM." The option ARMs, in particular, lured borrowers in with low initial interest rates - so-called teaser rates - sometimes as low as one percent. But after two, three or five years those rates "reset." They went up. And so did the monthly payment. A mortgage of $800 dollars a month could easily jump to $1,500.

Now the Alt-A and option ARM loans made back in the heyday are starting to reset, causing the mortgage payments to go up and homeowners to default.

[...]

Just look at a projection from the investment bank of Credit Suisse: there are the billions of dollars in sub-prime mortgages that reset last year and this year. But what hasn't hit yet are Alt-A and option ARM resets, when homeowners will pay higher interest rates in the next three years. We're at the beginning of a second wave. [refer to bar graph in video broadcast]

"It means that this problem, the economic difficulties, are not going to be resolved in a short period of time. It's not gonna take six months, it's not gonna 12 months, we're looking at probably about three, four, five years, before this overhang, this supply overhang is worked through," Egan says.

In the next four years, eight million American families are expected to lose their homes. But even after the residential meltdown, Whitney Tilson says blows to the financial system will keep coming.

"The same craziness that occurred in the mortgage market occurred in the commercial real estate markets. And that's taking a little longer to show. But there are gonna be big losses there. Credit cards, auto loans. You name it. So, we're still, you know, we're maybe halfway through the mortgage bubble. But we may only be in the third inning of the overall bursting of this asset bubble," Tilson says.

[DetroitDad]

But,

The icing on the unsustainable cake is this;

How I see it is that the American dream has always been about the the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. In our country’s collective pursuit of happiness, we built a society on oil, credit, and instant everything. Basically, America has built a temporary paradise. This false paradise, deemed as such long before running out of oil or global warming was even imagined, remind me of how asbestos was once considered a miracle material, and those who support oil dependence remind me of the doctors who were once paid to endorse cigarettes as healthy. Oil, like the overabundance of credit is a pillar of our castle in the sand, and the tide is beginning to come in.

I really have looked at the oil nuts as just that, nuts. I lumped them in a group that I shouldn’t have; unfortunately, their numbers just don’t lie. There is a global oil crisis coming, and it is time to prepare for it. If we do not do this now, we are destroying our chances of sustainable economic recovery, and the chances for a sustainable paradise for our next generations. These videos are worth a thousand words.













The Industrial Age [[there never was an Information Age) is about to be over. We used oil because it was the cheapest fuel to power a system like suburbia. Now, I always hear the argument that alternative energy will be able to be replace oil and natural gas. There is strong reason to believe that all the current green alternative energies combined could not take the place of oil in the current suburban model.

[DetroitDad]

Many times on this board, I have read about the bad side of living in the suburbs....

one person says that the majority of the suburbs are unsustainable
a couple people claim that the suburbs are a bunch of parking lots, malls, etc...
still other people claim that the burbs are "vanilla"

so here's my question...and I am not trying to be a smart ass....

explain to me, why a family of four, making over 100,000k per year would want ot move to the City of Detroit. Explain to me what schools their children would go to. Also explainwhy the city is a better choice than these suburbs.

I don't see it, but I am willing to listen to these benefits.
.

You don't see it because Downtown Detroit isn't sustainable living, although it is much more sustainable than many suburbs. Basically, Detroit became a suburb by default. What the people in Detroit who talk of sustainability are really saying is that we need to be thinking about what we as a region are actually doing and why. Does it make more sense to try to sustain the unsustainable or just figure out how to make the city work for us. If we don't change the course we are on, we are likely to end up where we are headed.

Until recently, the general consensus was to rebuild the suburbs into walkable communities complete with mini downtowns and all, planned urbanism [[new urbanism). Unfortunately, that idea has come up against the reality that is the current depression/recession. Here are some more videos along with a podcast that talk about what good urban design is [[video) and what can be done in order to live a sustainable lifestyle. They talk about how suburban developments could be converted, but the general idea is the same.

Audio: http://kunstlercast.com/shows/Kunstl...me_Correa.html

[DetroitDad]

Many people will be staying in the suburbs, especially those that are underwater on their mortgages [[they owe more than their houses are worth). However, it does appear that the suburbs are facing rising taxes with declining services, a repeat of what happened in Detroit. I also think that a significant number of our young people will not be choosing the suburbs in the future, while some will go to other cities, others will try to stay in Michigan's urban areas. I also see several other American cities following Detroit's decline [[an issue for another time).

I'm not the only person bringing up my family in Downtown Detroit.

Have you noticed how many mothers are pushing or walking with babies around Downtown Detroit? It's my understanding that what happened was that a large number of the young singles living in Downtown Detroit during the mortgage meltdown found significant others and wanted to have children. Some of these people ended up stuck in underwater mortgage situations on their condos or with bad credit, unable to move into a suburban apartment. Rather than weight to have children, these people have decided to just have their children now and make the best of a bad situation. I think these families are going to have a huge impact on the future of Detroit in the next five years.

I don't know what is going to happen, and I'll admit that living for what could be might be a mistake. We do have transit plans on the table, but I really don't have answers for some of Detroit's many problems like schools and crime, other than to say I believe their solvable [[actually I might comment more on those a little later). I do think that this is a smart move for my family, and it is a move towards sustainability, which just doesn't exist yet in Michigan. If you do your do diligence and still believe suburbia is the best place for you, great, stay there. For me, I really think Downtown Detroit or one of a few other small towns are the best options for me and mine.

[ZRX Doug]

Jesus, Dad..aluminum foil hat, much?

[rajdet]

If Detroit had the best school system in the state, and a world class mass transit system, would we even be having this discussion?

I would Love to live in Detroit vs currently Rochester Hills! So Much Excitement in Detroit!

French, why do you choose to live in Rochester Hills?

[Gannon]

DetroitDad, all due respect...but what the feck do you mean THERE NEVER WAS AN INFORMATION AGE?


You then go on to PROVE that we're in the middle of it.



Open your eyes man, and enjoy the age you were born into...it is always toughest to see the existing paradigm BECAUSE YOU NEVER LIVED when information was tough to locate and disseminate!


We ARE in the Information Age, it started right after the Technological Age.

Agricultural Revolution took roughly 3000 years from its 'beginning' to where it is now, still staggering in third world nations.

Industrial Revolution took nearly 300 years, one order of magnitude shorter. Same thing, it is still playing out in fringe areas to our economy and lifestyle.

Technological Revolution took about 30 years, again an order of magnitude shorter.

The Information Revolution may have been 3 years and IT may be over...according to the rules set by Alvin Toffler and his wife Heidi when they wrote The Third Wave. When they penned that piece they truly had no idea where we were going, most futurists are stymied.


So...just because you missed it doesn't mean you're not enjoying the fruits of it.


Cheers!

[Downtown diva]

It's also worth noting what average means for middle class America. I recommend watching this very very good video explaining the crisis the middle class is currently facing. If you'd rather not watch the video, here is a text version of the video as well.

The Middle Class on the Precipice

http://harvardmagazine.com/2006/01/the-middle-class-on-the.html


The Coming Collapse of the Middle Class

what does this have to do with the benefits of living in Detroit? What does this have to do with the sustainability of the suburbs?

[Downtown diva]

can somebody on the "unsustainable" side, please tell me which suburbs are unsustainable?
dont give me the hooe about the Middle class, blah blah blah.

tell me which suburbs will no longer be around.... or continue as suburbs.....

[Stosh]

what does this have to do with the benefits of living in Detroit? What does this have to do with the sustainability of the suburbs?

It has nothing to do with it. At all.

Gannon, glad to see that you recognized that flaw in his thinking. Among many.

I think the foil hat won't cover this. Maybe a foil tent. Or just wrap yourself up in it.

When someone completely contradicts themselves in separate thread responses, it's just time to let it go. Over here, Detroit isn't sustainable, but more sustainable than the suburbs. The other thread, Detroit is sustainable. Make up your mind.

[East Detroit]

All the suburbs are unsustainable when Detroit cuts off their water.

Sorry, Downtown Diva, I didn't want to put too much effort into responding to your anti-CoD trolling.

[Gannon]

I suspect that the ones that will survive will be those that can afford enough police to insure order and keep crime manageable.


So, my bets are to the existing police states like Livonia, the Bloomfields, maybe Farmington continuing to exist...Royal Oak for sure with their Nazi-state...but beyond? Not a chance!

Too many things arriving to stumble their economic stroll...price of gas is merely the trigger. As soon as insurance companies start to realize they are losing boatloads of money now that so much of the housing stock is empty and unpaid, I'm sure they will find a scheme to soak the farburbs.

Look to see anyone who can capitalize on those locked into their homes as the usury-writers of the near future...we are seeing it with credit cards now, just wait until all those others start hitting you up because they can and you cannot move!



Then we'll see the suburbs empty out as those costs encroach on their ability to sustain themselves so far outside the infrastructure. I was just thinking on my jog yesterday how long it will take groups to organize to fix the stuff government won't be able to...like major water main breaks and roads...when it comes down to that.

Because it will. And once that hits, in a sustained economic crisis there is NO way to sustain the water system alone beyond Wayne County! No way would the suburbs continue to pay increases...heh.


Roads, bridges, water system...all the stuff that went to dust at the end of the Roman period, too. Only they built so much of their stuff to last, we still get to see it! [[unlike our system built on the lowest bidder...)

[ZRX Doug]

I hate to burst everyone's bubbles, but the truth is that the suburbs don't much NEED Detroit anymore..they've become their own small versions of "the big city," with plenty of homegrown industry to provide jobs for their inhabitants..
The reality is that Detroit would die if the 'burb's were to dry up and blow away..the percentage of workers who are jamming the east-bound lanes every AM are the folks who are keeping the parasite our city has become alive..but they are far from the majority of suburban workers.