This is Exactly Why I Give Up on Michissip...I Mean Michigan

**313WX** · August-13-13, 04:45 PM

Unions Are Upset That A 22-Year Old Financial Analyst is Billing $275/hr as a Consultant For The City of Detroit

**313WX** · August-13-13, 04:53 PM

Really?

I can understand if you're upset about the fact that the city's being billed so much money for someone to tell us our watch is broken. But what I don't understand is what the age of this guy has to do with anything.

You people bitch, moan and groan about this backwater not having enough opportunities for 48% of our college graduate children who leave the state to never return, yet when this young man who's probably set for life doing consulting work for a city that filed the largest municipal bankruptcy in history is doing something most seasoned financial people wouldn't dream of doing until they're grey in the head and receding, you people chastised the poor guy because he's actually doing something that's quite rare for someone in his age in this state, and that's being successful.

It's not his fault the city's broke. He's just here, in theory, helping to clean the mess his parents and grandparents made with their purely idiotic decisions over the past half century.

This is exactly why the majority of Michigan's young and educated flee this state as soon as possible after graduating college, because of this toxic provincial mindset.

**jt1** · August-13-13, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

Really?

I can understand if you're upset about the fact that the city's being billed so much money for someone to tell us our watch is broken. But what I don't understand is what the age of this guy has to do with anything.

You people bitch, moan and groan about this backwater not having enough opportunities for 48% of our college graduate children who leave the state to never return, yet when this young man who's probably set for life doing consulting work for a city that filed the largest municipal bankruptcy in history is doing something most seasoned financial people wouldn't dream of doing until they're grey in the head and receding, you people chastised the poor guy because he's actually doing something that's quite rare for someone in his age in this state, and that's being successful.

It's not his fault the city's broke. He's just here, in theory, helping to clean the mess his parents and grandparents made with their purely idiotic decisions over the past half century.

This is exactly why the majority of Michigan's young and educated flee this state as soon as possible after graduating college, because of this toxic provincial mindset.

I think the age certainly brings into question his ability and knowledge. He may be the smartest person in the world however the type of work he is doing requires experience to truly be the best.

I'm all for retaining the best and the brightest and paying good money to keep them but I think it is a viable question.

My issue is more with the reporting. There is absolutely no reason the local media should be listing his name, age, where he went to school, etc.

There's a difference between being educated/intelligent and being an expert in your field. The sad thing is that even with his bill rate, I'm guessing he is making borderline $100K which is about a fifth of his bill rate.

**313WX** · August-13-13, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by jt1

I think the age certainly brings into question his ability and knowledge. He may be the smartest person in the world however the type of work he is doing requires experience to truly be the best.

I'm all for retaining the best and the brightest and paying good money to keep them but I think it is a viable question.

My issue is more with the reporting. There is absolutely no reason the local media should be listing his name, age, where he went to school, etc.

There's a difference between being educated/intelligent and being an expert in your field. The sad thing is that even with his bill rate, I'm guessing he is making borderline $100K which is about a fifth of his bill rate.

But none of that should be relevant. For one, he's on a team of consultant from Conway MacKenzie. It's not as if he's the only one consulting the city of Detroit. For two, I'm sure even at his age, he brings a lot more to the table to help the city restructure its finances than anyone down at City Hall or any of the unions can combined. To pick at what he's being billed merely because of his age reveals much bigger problems they have with this than the bill itself.

**dtowncitylover** · August-13-13, 05:17 PM

A high school classmate of mine, two years out of State makes this kind of money in Chicago. Saw him last year, wearing the best clothes, lives in a nice neighborhood. He does financial work also. I'm not mad or jealous, he got himself a good degree from a good school and got a good job. It's nothing I care to do. Good for him. And good for this guy for doing what he wants to do. But now he is being derided for his age. Tsk tsk. We want to get good paying jobs, called "lazy" when we can't find anything, and then when we do we're scolded for being too young.

**douglasm** · August-13-13, 05:27 PM

What he's billing doesn't really upset me that much. In my little town, our city attorney [[a very part time job) bills $200 an hour, his assistant $175 and the para-legal $125, this for a town of about 900. Given the scope of the problem in Detroit and the ratsnest people are trying to untangle, it doesn't seem unusual that a financial analyst is billing $275.

Remember too that he isn't walking away with $275 per, either. People tend to forget that a hunk of his pay goes to the back office operations of the firm he works for, including various assistants that help him compile the information he needs.

**EastsideAl** · August-13-13, 06:14 PM

What a poorly written article. Somebody obviously has no idea how the consulting business works. That kid isn't making anywhere near $275/hr, nor is he the one billing it from the city.

He's an employee of a consulting firm that is billing the city that amount for his services - and, it seems, is also billing much more for the services of several other, apparently more experienced, people. The firm is charging for access to professional people they have theoretically vetted and trained. But unless those people are partners in the firm, most of that billed rate is not going to them personally, but straight into the firm's coffers to pay for expenses and the partners' share of the profits.

The unions' anger also seems misplaced. Again, perhaps because of a misunderstanding of how that business works. They really shouldn't be singling out this guy over what the city's paying his company for him. But they should be objecting to the huge amount these "services" are costing a purportedly broke city that can't even afford to keep lights on, police and fire depts. staffed, or its pension obligations funded. And the amount of padding involved for the firm's profit margin, way over and above what the individuals are actually paid for their work.

**Cliffy** · August-13-13, 06:43 PM

This is highway robbery by the consultants. I mentioned this in another thread a few days ago. Some kid out of college who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground is not worth $275 an hour to ANYBODY. This consulting firm is a vulture just like Orr's law firm charging $1000 hour. I don't blame the kid and he's just going along with it but I blame all the Republicans who are sooooo in love with consultants and the private sector and they can do no wrong. People can't get an ambulance or police car but we have money to burn for these people. We are broke. Who gives a shit if this is the best or whatever they bill themselves as. We got no money. This is seriously fucked up and anyone who blindly goes along with this is an idiot.

**Honky Tonk** · August-13-13, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by Cliffy

This is highway robbery by the consultants. I mentioned this in another thread a few days ago. Some kid out of college who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground is not worth $275 an hour to ANYBODY. This consulting firm is a vulture just like Orr's law firm charging $1000 hour. I don't blame the kid and he's just going along with it but I blame all the Republicans who are sooooo in love with consultants and the private sector and they can do no wrong. People can't get an ambulance or police car but we have money to burn for these people. We are broke. Who gives a shit if this is the best or whatever they bill themselves as. We got no money. This is seriously fucked up and anyone who blindly goes along with this is an idiot.

If I were you, I'd march right into City Hall and tell them "Look, I'm more then qualified to do this kid's job, not only that, I'll do it for $22 an hour, plus lunch!" Maybe they'll give you a crack @ it?

**Locke09** · August-13-13, 07:29 PM

It's not so much a matter of the young man's age, but a question of just how expert he is after being out of school for one year. The average pay of the highest 10% of financial analysts is $145,000. In New York the average is $116,000 and in Connecticut it is $127,000, according to latest studies I could find.

It was said in the article that a reasonable portion of the rate that one would expect to be paid to the employee is 35%. Are we to believe a person 1 year out of college is making about $157,000 per year - higher than the highest 10% of financial analysts? If the answer is no, than Conway MacKenzie, who by the way has been around the City supposedly doing "turnaround" since long before January 2013, is fleecing the City.

Just because the City needs expert help does not absolve the City of the need to ensure that the help is not inordinately high.

Reminds me of the story of two twin brothers. The older one is famished and feels he is about to starve. He asks his younger twin for some of the stew he has made. The younger one says, "Sure, but you have to give me your birthright in exchange." The older one says, "Fine, whatever, I'll starve if I don't get something to eat." The younger brother went down in history as a "trickster". The older one went down in history as an idiot.

**firstandten** · August-13-13, 07:30 PM

I heard of the $275/hr the kid probably gets 35% of the amount

**canuck** · August-13-13, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

If I were you, I'd march right into City Hall and tell them "Look, I'm more then qualified to do this kid's job, not only that, I'll do it for $22 an hour, plus lunch!" Maybe they'll give you a crack @ it?

Good one HK!

**JBMcB** · August-13-13, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

Unions Are Upset...

Well, asked and answered. Unions have no concept that education and ability drive pay. If the law firm were unionized, the kids would be getting $20/hour and the guys doing the exact same thing but have there for ten years would be getting $800 an hour.

**coracle** · August-13-13, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by Cliffy

This is highway robbery by the consultants. I mentioned this in another thread a few days ago. Some kid out of college who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground is not worth $275 an hour to ANYBODY. This consulting firm is a vulture just like Orr's law firm charging $1000 hour. I don't blame the kid and he's just going along with it but I blame all the Republicans who are sooooo in love with consultants and the private sector and they can do no wrong. People can't get an ambulance or police car but we have money to burn for these people. We are broke.

Just imagine Cliffy these Republican vultures in the Private Sector charging $275 -$1000 per hour to clear up the mess wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the fifty years of Democrat assholes in the Public Sector that created it. It's a dirty job but somebody has to do it.

**DetroitPlanner** · August-13-13, 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by Cliffy

This is highway robbery by the consultants. I mentioned this in another thread a few days ago. Some kid out of college who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground is not worth $275 an hour to ANYBODY. This consulting firm is a vulture just like Orr's law firm charging $1000 hour. I don't blame the kid and he's just going along with it but I blame all the Republicans who are sooooo in love with consultants and the private sector and they can do no wrong. People can't get an ambulance or police car but we have money to burn for these people. We are broke. Who gives a shit if this is the best or whatever they bill themselves as. We got no money. This is seriously fucked up and anyone who blindly goes along with this is an idiot.

WHAT?!? But privatizing is supposed to SAVE money and be cheaper!

**DetroitPlanner** · August-13-13, 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by coracle

Just imagine Cliffy these Republican vultures in the Private Sector charging $275 -$1000 per hour to clear up the mess wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the fifty years of Democrat assholes in the Public Sector that created it. It's a dirty job but somebody has to do it.

The majority of the current debt has a lot to do with why they are in this mess. Republicans pretty much run banking and the markets. Lets not kid ourselves.

**Locke09** · August-13-13, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by JBMcB

Well, asked and answered. Unions have no concept that education and ability drive pay. If the law firm were unionized, the kids would be getting $20/hour and the guys doing the exact same thing but have there for ten years would be getting $800 an hour.

Right - education and ability. He has a Bachelor's not a Masters. he doesn't have his CFA yet, which some get instead of a Master's or in addition to a Master's, denoting they are very well-equipped in financial knowledge. He has one year's experience.

In the highest paid region in this industry, Connecticut, he would make about $78,000 according to multiple salary studies [[30% higher than the average salary for this classification). That's $39 per hour. Let's say $60 per hour with great benefits. That's less than 25% of the rate being paid. It's not about his salary, it's about the firm's rate.

I guess since the City's paying half and the State's paying half, all the firms just decided to double their rates.

I wish the News had asked what has been delivered thus far for the fees this company has charged since January 2013. Surely there must be something tangible for the millions in fees. Because if you're charging about $250,000 every two weeks, you've racked up millions in invoices. Perhaps something wonderful has been done and it really was worth the cost.

**Jason** · August-13-13, 08:59 PM

We don't know how much the guy is getting paid.

All we know is that the firm is billing by the hour [[based on a very broad categorization of the employees). The document is just a list of the people assigned to this job, and how many hours they worked.

This just happens to be the job that the new guy got assigned to. And I'm sure his individual responsibilities on the team are in line with him being the new guy fresh out of college.

**Cliffy** · August-13-13, 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by coracle

Just imagine Cliffy these Republican vultures in the Private Sector charging $275 -$1000 per hour to clear up the mess wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the fifty years of Democrat assholes in the Public Sector that created it. It's a dirty job but somebody has to do it.

Right... Lets blindly start paying $275-1000 hour and we don't know how many hours and what exactly they are really doing. Lets turn a blind eye to the financial industry because those guys never steal. I mean this Conway Mckenzie outfit that is HQ in NYC is really cleaning it up. Again, I've worked with consultant contracts in the public sector. They send you an invoice with hours worked and you really can't prove anything. Same shit here. There is no way some kid straight out of MSU with just a bachelors and 1 year experience is getting paid $100 hour either. Just more consultant scams.

**Cliffy** · August-13-13, 09:43 PM

Originally Posted by Jason

We don't know how much the guy is getting paid.

All we know is that the firm is billing by the hour [[based on a very broad categorization of the employees). The document is just a list of the people assigned to this job, and how many hours they worked.

This just happens to be the job that the new guy got assigned to. And I'm sure his individual responsibilities on the team are in line with him being the new guy fresh out of college.

If I had to guess, he's probably making $30 hour plus benefits.

**Novine** · August-13-13, 10:18 PM

Any signs of improvement in city services as a result of the work of these firms? Millions going out the door for these consulting services, where are the improvements?

**DetroitVideoDaily** · August-13-13, 10:38 PM

Originally Posted by Novine

Any signs of improvement in city services as a result of the work of these firms? Millions going out the door for these consulting services, where are the improvements?

Good question. I'm wondering when the improvements I keep hearing about are going to start happening.

They can start by cutting some of the vacant lots that haven't been cut once this summer. Seems like the mowing of city lots would be fairly low hanging fruit and visually would have an impact. Not sure though, probably not that simple... sigh.
-DVD

**Wesley Mouch** · August-13-13, 11:06 PM

1) We had the option to avoid bankruptcy. We fought it tooth and nail. Didn't like the consent agreement. Didn't like the EFM law. Didn't like anything. We no longer have a say in this matter. Its up to a federal judge and an EM. Enjoy.

2) This is nothing but the Unions playing the spin game. I'll bet they pay their outside legal firm the same. And some of them are probably no more or less qualified. What's really happening here is the Unions will say or do anything to rile up the public. Big legal and big accounting firms ain't cheap.

3) If you think there's anything abusive here, you're just helping the Unions fight their battle. Which is OK -- unless you're a pensioner. In that case, be careful. Unions don't look out for pensioners. They don't pay dues. Unions will scream and yell about abuse -- but that's just a tactic in their battle for more money for them. They'll sell the pensioners in a NY minute -- which btw costs a lot.

**professorscott** · August-13-13, 11:11 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitVideoDaily

Good question. I'm wondering when the improvements I keep hearing about are going to start happening.

They can start by cutting some of the vacant lots that haven't been cut once this summer. Seems like the mowing of city lots would be fairly low hanging fruit and visually would have an impact. Not sure though, probably not that simple... sigh.
-DVD

These things will happen but it's going to take a bit of time. How much time depends principally, now, on Hon. Justice Rhodes. If he agrees that the City is bankrupt, then Mr. Orr can begin to implement structural changes, which are massive and will have the side effect of improving many services.

Essentially, a good many City employees who perform no immediately useful function [[e.g. fighting fires, driving a bus, picking up trash) will suddenly be looking for work. Those who perform essential functions will find the rules of the road have changed a good bit. Some people will still be performing the same function as before but will be working for companies contracted with the City.

Mr. Orr's plan to invest an additional $125 million into services [[average per year for the next decade) is real but also depends upon His Honor's acquiescence.

So the triggering event is what happens with the bankruptcy proceeding. Anything that delays the eventual decision that Detroit is in fact bankrupt, delays improvements to services. Keep that in mind while deciding for whom to cheer.

**ghettopalmetto** · August-14-13, 06:56 AM

Originally Posted by Cliffy

This is highway robbery by the consultants. I mentioned this in another thread a few days ago. Some kid out of college who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground is not worth $275 an hour to ANYBODY. This consulting firm is a vulture just like Orr's law firm charging $1000 hour. I don't blame the kid and he's just going along with it but I blame all the Republicans who are sooooo in love with consultants and the private sector and they can do no wrong. People can't get an ambulance or police car but we have money to burn for these people. We are broke. Who gives a shit if this is the best or whatever they bill themselves as. We got no money. This is seriously fucked up and anyone who blindly goes along with this is an idiot.

Don't you understand? Money manipulators are SMARTER and WORK HARDER than the rest of us!

I know it's not nearly as sexy a profession, or apparently as useful, but I know consulting engineers with 30 years experience who don't bill at $275 an hour. But this kid, whose feet are barely wet, can justify that rate for grunt work?

Just goes to show you where we are as a culture/society/economy, where bean counters are treated like rock stars, while the people who actually MAKE THINGS are expected to make concession after concession in their wages and benefits.

It's nothing personal against Mr. Johnston. But damn, if this is the "cheap" guy on the team.... Smells like profiteering to me: Socialize the losses, privatize the profits.