Detroit: Fight or Flight

**HarvardWarren** · August-07-13, 12:31 PM

Former Detroiter left East English Village in 2010: http://publicsource.org/investigatio...ight-or-flight

**Detroitnerd** · August-07-13, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by HarvardWarren

Former Detroiter left East English Village in 2010: http://publicsource.org/investigatio...ight-or-flight

Didn't Ben pen a similar piece as a kind of kiss-off to Detroit when he left?

**HarvardWarren** · August-08-13, 06:10 AM

Yes...but as the article states at the beginning - Public Source asked him to write this one. Pretty balanced article, if you ask me. I wouldn't label either one as a kiss-off. Just a personal tale.

**michimoby** · August-08-13, 10:52 AM

What narrative gives you the suggestion that Ben's articles have served as a "kiss-off"? It's apparent that he offers clear reasoning behind his decision to leave Detroit. I don't get the sense that he had any ill will with his choice.

In case you want to read a bit more into his decision: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/...ournal-280081/

**HarvardWarren** · August-08-13, 03:32 PM

Agree! There is no ill-will or kiss off in these pieces.

**daddeeo** · August-13-13, 12:23 PM

This is the bottom on the barrel. He is one of the fortunate to get out alive. Until the neighborhoods are safe, this city will never recover.

**belleislerunner** · August-13-13, 02:16 PM

Quitters are always going to make excuses.

Some people are optimists/realists and fight to make things better even if they're the last home standing on a block.

Others are fair weather fans looking to "turn a profit" after a few years and when things get tough, throw in the towel and bail.

Adversity reveals your true character. Or lack thereof.

**TKshreve** · August-13-13, 02:38 PM

LOL @ belleislerunner. You better have bigger and more guns than the next guy, because you're going to have to use them if you choose fight over flight. If you call that excuses and bailing...... well, make me a name tag.

I cut through the EEV area every day in my commute. It has certainly changed over the years. It comes as no surprise to me that house values have plummeted over the past 10 years. It's sad, because it possesses such potential. And many of the blocks are still sound from end to end. But take a drive down Buckingham and you'll see the familiar tale of "what once was".

**belleislerunner** · August-13-13, 02:52 PM

I'm not saying the areas are pristine. I see them every day too. My point was the author was originally from Pittsburgh, came to Detroit looking to make a buck flipping real estate adn when it didn't work, went back to where he was most familiar.

That happens in every city in America. People who go from Atlanta to NYC back to Buckhead. Or Rockford to Chicago to E. Grand Rapids. This story was no different. He longed for familiarity. Which is a perfectly acceptable choice. Just nothing worth writing an article about.

**TKshreve** · August-13-13, 02:57 PM

What I also took from it was.... his choice to leave was partially not his own, but the surrounding residents and culture that forced his hand. IOW - he would still be here if the area did not continue to deteriorate with the rest of the city.

What's most striking to me is his account of his neighbor leaving three years prior to his departure. It must be lonely and humbling when at the end you look back and recall those who read the writing years ahead of you.

**michimoby** · August-13-13, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by TKshreve

What I also took from it was.... his choice to leave was partially not his own, but the surrounding residents and culture that forced his hand.

This.

Sometimes, circumstances are simply beyond your control and provide just as compelling a case for departure.

**Detroitnerd** · August-13-13, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by michimoby

What narrative gives you the suggestion that Ben's articles have served as a "kiss-off"? It's apparent that he offers clear reasoning behind his decision to leave Detroit. I don't get the sense that he had any ill will with his choice.

In case you want to read a bit more into his decision: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/...ournal-280081/

No, I think there was another article around the same time that I might have been thinking of. That article had been written by a speculator trying to buy low and sell high and complaining that it didn't pan out. That one got roundly criticized here. No, this is a different person and I remember it well now.

Anyway, it's still a kiss-off. It's just a nice one.

KISS OFF

1. To dismiss or reject.
2. To be forced to give up or regard as lost: He can kiss off that promotion.
3. To leave or disappear from notice: got bad press by telling the reporters to kiss off.

**313WX** · August-13-13, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by belleislerunner

Quitters are always going to make excuses.

Some people are optimists/realists and fight to make things better even if they're the last home standing on a block.

Others are fair weather fans looking to "turn a profit" after a few years and when things get tough, throw in the towel and bail.

Adversity reveals your true character. Or lack thereof.

Just because people want to do better than Detroit and Michigan doesn't make them bad people.

**poobert** · August-14-13, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by TKshreve

LOL @ belleislerunner. You better have bigger and more guns than the next guy, because you're going to have to use them if you choose fight over flight. If you call that excuses and bailing...... well, make me a name tag.

I cut through the EEV area every day in my commute. It has certainly changed over the years. It comes as no surprise to me that house values have plummeted over the past 10 years. It's sad, because it possesses such potential. And many of the blocks are still sound from end to end. But take a drive down Buckingham and you'll see the familiar tale of "what once was".

Ugh! Buckingham isn't EEV. That's MorningSide. EEV is in way, way better shape.

As most people here know, I live in EEV. It isn't paradise, but it's pretty nice, as far as the city goes.

It isn't what it was ten years ago [[i.e., just an extension of Grosse Pointe with different looking street signs) but the drop in prices allowed me to buy a house there, along with a lot of other hardworking folk who want a cool house in the city. Overall, I'm glad I did.

Funny thing is I know exactly which house he lived in. It's on Harvard. I walk past it nearly every day walking my dog. It's a beautiful block [[between Waveney and Cornwall). I'm sorry he had shitty "neighbors."

The prices have also been bouncing back and vacancy is now much lower than it has been in 4 years - below 10%. I'm sorry for his experience and don't blame him for leaving, but change is inevitable, and is often for the good.

**RaumVogel** · August-14-13, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

Just because people want to do better than Detroit and Michigan doesn't make them bad people.

Thank you. My life would have been much less prosperous if I had stayed. But I still love the D and I have always hoped for it's recovery. It's like the forces of International $$ had to let it go down far enough to make it cheap enough to invest in again.

**313WX** · August-14-13, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by poobert

Ugh! Buckingham isn't EEV. That's MorningSide. EEV is in way, way better shape.

Yes, but I think you missed his point.

And I can co-sign to this, as I've witnessed it first hand.

I'm sure as you know, Morningside back in the late 90s/early 2000s was just as solid as EEV with the somewhat fancy homes and solidly middle class families [[there was no difference when you crossed Outer Drive or Mack form Grosse Pointe in the quality of the neighborhoods). But as you can see, that has changed significantly in Morningside. Essentially, one can say the cancer, so to speak, to the SW of it eventually took it over.

His point was this could very well happen to EEV if things don't improve in terms of the city's quality of life. People do get sick and tired of being sick and tired. Since the residency requirement is long gone, there's nothing to stop people from leaving either.

**sumas** · August-14-13, 07:54 PM

Having attended Finney Jr Sr High I knew kids from Four Corners EEV and morningside. Only EEV has faired rather well

**Lily** · August-15-13, 11:05 PM

Originally Posted by belleislerunner

Quitters are always going to make excuses.

Some people are optimists/realists and fight to make things better even if they're the last home standing on a block.

Others are fair weather fans looking to "turn a profit" after a few years and when things get tough, throw in the towel and bail.

Adversity reveals your true character. Or lack thereof.

I beg to differ. Everyone who quit or quits on Detroit are not necessarily quitters, they may just be regular people who made hard choices. My husband & i lived in an nice appt off W Outer Drive. Chose to by a nice brick home off East outer drive, near Polish Century club in about 88. Had a child. All was well, for about 5 years, but suddenly overnite, we were broken into twice and had swastikas painted on our garage, along with digusting messages. A week later, broken into again when my 85 year old defenseless mother was there alone. We were gone in less than a week. Police too overworked or didnt care. My family had to be safe. No, we didnt turn a profit of any sort and to put salt on the wound, my daughter moved back here a year later and decided they would move in the house. A few weeks after moving in, she was broken into and came home from work to find all of the Christmas presents under the tree gone......all of her underwear pulled out from drawers and draped on the tree, along other things too disgusting to talk about. Even free rent from mom and dad couldn't keep her there after that.

Point being everyone who has left detroit arent quitters. After 5 great years there, suddenly my race and my husband's religion became an issue with someone. We had a family to raise and two elderly moms to care for. We could no longer do it in Detroit. I hope that things are going to get better in Detroit, and in Wayne County overall, so when we retire in a few years we can go home again be Proud Detroit Residents, and no longer live close by but not in the city.

sorry to be so verbose, but this is a touchy subject here.

Lily

**michimoby** · August-16-13, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by Lily

I beg to differ. Everyone who quit or quits on Detroit are not necessarily quitters, they may just be regular people who made hard choices. My husband & i lived in an nice appt off W Outer Drive. Chose to by a nice brick home off East outer drive, near Polish Century club in about 88. Had a child. All was well, for about 5 years, but suddenly overnite, we were broken into twice and had swastikas painted on our garage, along with digusting messages. A week later, broken into again when my 85 year old defenseless mother was there alone. We were gone in less than a week. Police too overworked or didnt care. My family had to be safe. No, we didnt turn a profit of any sort and to put salt on the wound, my daughter moved back here a year later and decided they would move in the house. A few weeks after moving in, she was broken into and came home from work to find all of the Christmas presents under the tree gone......all of her underwear pulled out from drawers and draped on the tree, along other things too disgusting to talk about. Even free rent from mom and dad couldn't keep her there after that.

Point being everyone who has left detroit arent quitters. After 5 great years there, suddenly my race and my husband's religion became an issue with someone. We had a family to raise and two elderly moms to care for. We could no longer do it in Detroit. I hope that things are going to get better in Detroit, and in Wayne County overall, so when we retire in a few years we can go home again be Proud Detroit Residents, and no longer live close by but not in the city.

sorry to be so verbose, but this is a touchy subject here.

Lily

Lily, thanks for sharing that obviously painful story -- and I'm sorry you had to go through that.

My experience wasn't nearly as violent or threatening as yours. But I also felt a bit of sadness at the lack of well-wishes I received when I departed Detroit. My closest friends understood my reasons for leaving and celebrated the potential journey ahead, but I also received both neutral responses and flat-out derision from others.

There's a deeply personal attachment to Detroit amongst residents that choose to live there, especially those with the upward mobility to thrive in any city. In many cases, that attachment causes them to view leaving the city as a signal of betrayal. It's endearing at best, hurtful at worst.

**night-timer** · August-19-13, 10:17 AM

Lily, sadly, if the Police are "too over-worked or don't care" it's probably because the crime/s committed against you weren't serious or horrific enough to take Priority. I understand your 'sense of violation' and your indignation as an innocent victim of crime, but Police only think about the worst cases - the other cases take less priority. [[None of this, I know, will help you feel any better. Be well.... I hope You and Yours are okay... ;-)

**Honky Tonk** · August-19-13, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by night-timer

Lily, sadly, if the Police are "too over-worked or don't care" it's probably because the crime/s committed against you weren't serious or horrific enough to take Priority. I understand your 'sense of violation' and your indignation as an innocent victim of crime, but Police only think about the worst cases - the other cases take less priority. [[None of this, I know, will help you feel any better. Be well.... I hope You and Yours are okay... ;-)

I no longer buy the "too over-worked or don't care" it's probably because the crime/s committed against you weren't serious or horrific enough to take Priority, but Police only think about the worst cases" nonesense. I think they've just become too complacent. Just like the rest of City Government and services.

**TKshreve** · August-19-13, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

I no longer buy the "too over-worked or don't care" it's probably because the crime/s committed against you weren't serious or horrific enough to take Priority, but Police only think about the worst cases" nonesense. I think they've just become too complacent. Just like the rest of City Government and services.

How DPD officers even want to do their jobs is perplexing enough. You chase down the worst of worst criminals who have zero respect for life, authority or society. Your pay is constantly under fire and now your pension is questionable at best. Meanwhile, is there anyone/thing even following the productivity of these officers and their responsibilities? Or could they "say" their going on runs and slack off?

Perhaps Ray could shed some light on these questions.

**313WX** · August-19-13, 08:54 PM

Originally Posted by TKshreve

How DPD officers even want to do their jobs is perplexing enough. You chase down the worst of worst criminals who have zero respect for life, authority or society. Your pay is constantly under fire and now your pension is questionable at best. Meanwhile, is there anyone/thing even following the productivity of these officers and their responsibilities? Or could they "say" their going on runs and slack off?

Perhaps Ray could shed some light on these questions.

It's like with the folks who have college degrees and are working at McDonalds.

As much as it sucks, you still need the job to support yourself and you're easily replaceable.

**Lily** · August-19-13, 09:15 PM

You are right that they were not horrific and could have been much worse. But these things did cause us to leave the city. Family first. I replied and probably gave too much info, but my reply was directed to Bellislerunner's comment, that quitters always have excuses. I understand that the police are overworked and underpaid, but when someone somewhere makes the decision to slash their hours, that decision means that the police will be too busy to only deal with the most violent of crimes. They will not be able to deal with low priority [[ to them) calls. i really do get that, but that doesnt make that low priority call any less important to the citizen[[s).

And as far as too busy goes.....
It's simple math.....if there are 50 police in a precinct and half are laid off, the remaining officiers will be woking twice as hard [[i wont even start on......the remaining ones end up working overtime, so just where did that savings go from the lay offs?)

and yes, thank you, we are doing fine, we just did a lot of reminding each other that the 3 main incidents could have been worse. property can be replaced, graffitti painted over, no one was killed or physically assulted.

lily

**sumas** · August-20-13, 02:53 AM

First I am all Detroit. Second we had ten assaults on our eastside home so don't whine. Third we did leave the city because of school concerns. Fouth, our kids grew up and I couldn't wait to get back.

We have had some weird problems since being back for 10 years but beats the hell out of the burbs with their narrow and racist attitudes.