M1 Rail contract awarded

**professorscott** · July-30-13, 09:41 PM

Crains is reporting tonight that M1 Rail has awarded the construction project. Thanks to Bill Shea for letting us know. Go to www.crainsdetroit.com for the story.

**compn** · July-30-13, 09:56 PM

is this the 3 mile train to nowhere? or has the plan changed since then?

**professorscott** · July-30-13, 10:05 PM

If you want to think of it that way. I was on the team that did some of the very early planning, but I'm not offended when people are skeptical. I think it will provide an important link between two really growing and vibrant areas of the City and allow the People Mover to finally start to become what it was meant to be. But there's always the chance that I am, and private contributors representing tens of millions of dollars are, wrong. We'll see.

**5speedz34** · July-30-13, 10:24 PM

You have to start somewhere.

Guess what? You want to get downtown from Midtown/WSU/New Center? Deal with a under-served bus system or drive the 2-3 miles and pay and park your car.

Somewhat relevant story; I live in Woodbridge and tonight went to the Tigers game with my Uncle who epitomizes suburbanites in this region. He picked me up before hand and I told him I would probably take the bus home. He was flabbergasted. He's one of the many people who leave games early just to avoid traffic, a practice I despise. He said, "Wouldn't you rather have a ride home??" Guess what, I went out after the game, met up friends in Harmonie Park, had a drink and a smoke, and a full hour after the game watched people sitting in traffic trying to get out of downtown. Walked over to the RPTC hopped on the 21 Grand River bus and was home in 15 min. Granted I live off of Grand River but I essentially did about the same distance the M1 will cover on Woodward. You have to start somewhere.

**mwilbert** · July-30-13, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by compn

is this the 3 mile train to nowhere? or has the plan changed since then?

The problem with this train isn't that it doesn't go anywhere. It is how it goes there. I'm still looking forward to it though.

**professorscott** · July-30-13, 10:47 PM

The point of the streetcar isn't that it's going to be fast; it isn't and doesn't need to be. The distance it covers is not vast. The point is that it is going to be frequent and reliable, neither of which can be said about DDOT's service these last several years. It will give people a viable travel option between downtown and midtown, and in practice will extend the reach of DPM for people using that to get around the downtown loop.

**nain rouge** · July-30-13, 11:06 PM

Professor Scott's use of the term "streetcar" brings up an important point. Many of Detroit's historic neighborhoods were built around the streetcar. It makes sense, then, to bring the basic idea of the streetcar back to such neighborhoods through the form of light rail. As we've seen, retrofitting the city entirely for the automobile has often had less than desirable results. Ideally, it should be a healthy mix.

**mwilbert** · July-30-13, 11:06 PM

I agree with all of that [[except that I think we will have to see how reliable it is given its implementation). However, nothing will convince me that a second-lane curbside system alongside on-street parking is a reasonable configuration.

**detmsp** · July-31-13, 12:57 AM

Originally Posted by professorscott

The point of the streetcar isn't that it's going to be fast; it isn't and doesn't need to be. The distance it covers is not vast. The point is that it is going to be frequent and reliable, neither of which can be said about DDOT's service these last several years. It will give people a viable travel option between downtown and midtown, and in practice will extend the reach of DPM for people using that to get around the downtown loop.

What bothers me about the plan is that I feel like it stands in the way of light rail service. Woodward is a major artery and deserves to have light rail that goes out to 8 mile and beyond. If we get to a time where we have the money to build that, this streetcar system will be in the way. Either you'll have to rip out M1 rail [[making it a waste of money) or you'll end up with a hodgepodge service where you take the light rail from 8 mile to midtown and then transfer to the street car to get downtown. That means it won't really be rapid transit because you'll be going super slow on the street cars once you hit midtown and you'll have to wait for a transfer.

I get that we have to start somewhere... I just wish that somewhere fit in a bit more nicely with where we want to eventually be.

Also, prof, can you elaborate on why this will be more reliable than busses? My understanding [[and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that M1 will co-mingle with traffic. So if there's a traffic jam, M1 will be late. I'm not seeing how this will be more reliable than a bus, so please enlighten me

**DetroitPlanner** · July-31-13, 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by compn

is this the 3 mile train to nowhere? or has the plan changed since then?

If you want to think of a train that links Amtrak, New Center, Wayne State, the Cultural Center, the Medical Center, the Stadiums, the theaters, downtown, the North End, the People Mover, and thousands of low-income and student housing units as a train to no where, then no, nothing has changed.

**DetroitPlanner** · July-31-13, 06:56 AM

Originally Posted by detmsp

Also, prof, can you elaborate on why this will be more reliable than busses? My understanding [[and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that M1 will co-mingle with traffic. So if there's a traffic jam, M1 will be late. I'm not seeing how this will be more reliable than a bus, so please enlighten me

One way it will be more reliable will be that it will use GPS to time lights so that waits at reds will be minimized, but you can also do that with BRT. It will also be privately operated, which may make it more reliable, but that is not a guarantee.

**ghettopalmetto** · July-31-13, 07:23 AM

Originally Posted by detmsp

What bothers me about the plan is that I feel like it stands in the way of light rail service. Woodward is a major artery and deserves to have light rail that goes out to 8 mile and beyond. If we get to a time where we have the money to build that, this streetcar system will be in the way. Either you'll have to rip out M1 rail [[making it a waste of money) or you'll end up with a hodgepodge service where you take the light rail from 8 mile to midtown and then transfer to the street car to get downtown. That means it won't really be rapid transit because you'll be going super slow on the street cars once you hit midtown and you'll have to wait for a transfer.

I get that we have to start somewhere... I just wish that somewhere fit in a bit more nicely with where we want to eventually be.

Also, prof, can you elaborate on why this will be more reliable than busses? My understanding [[and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that M1 will co-mingle with traffic. So if there's a traffic jam, M1 will be late. I'm not seeing how this will be more reliable than a bus, so please enlighten me

No system is ever perfect. Just look at how many modifications have been made to the New York City Subway over the past 100 years. Or, how many modifications have been made to roadway networks.

This is a good starting point. If the line is extended up to 8 Mile [[or beyond), then I imagine service would mimick that of light rail in places like Baltimore or Minneapolis, where trains run at faster speeds in the outlying areas, and run just a bit slower in the downtown area.

From a technical standpoint, both light rail vehicles and streetcars operate on the same gauge track and are powered by overhead catenary. The only modifications that might be required to run light rail vehicles on the Woodward line would be some sort of boarding/alighting platform extension.

**Hermod** · July-31-13, 07:24 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

One way it will be more reliable will be that it will use GPS to time lights so that waits at reds will be minimized, but you can also do that with BRT. It will also be privately operated, which may make it more reliable, but that is not a guarantee.

You can give an ordinary bus driver a "magic gadget" to change the lights in his favor as well. I wonder how long before those thingies would get out on the black market so lots of drivers would have them as well.

**Hermod** · July-31-13, 07:30 AM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

This is a good starting point. If the line is extended up to 8 Mile [[or beyond), then I imagine service would mimick that of light rail in places like Baltimore or Minneapolis, where trains run at faster speeds in the outlying areas, and run just a bit slower in the downtown area.

From a technical standpoint, both light rail vehicles and streetcars operate on the same gauge track and are powered by overhead catenary. The only modifications that might be required to run light rail vehicles on the Woodward line would be some sort of boarding/alighting platform extension.

You know, that was one [[of many) of the "killers" that destroyed the fabulous and comprehensive interurban system that Detroit once possessed. The city pols always dictated that once in the city limits, the interurban cars couldn't run express to the downtown, but had to stop at every street corner to pickup and discharge local passengers just like a street car [[at local fares). They did not allow bypass tracks so that the interurbans could speed to the downtown.

**Hermod** · July-31-13, 07:32 AM

Originally Posted by professorscott

The point of the streetcar isn't that it's going to be fast; it isn't and doesn't need to be. The distance it covers is not vast. The point is that it is going to be frequent and reliable, neither of which can be said about DDOT's service these last several years. It will give people a viable travel option between downtown and midtown, and in practice will extend the reach of DPM for people using that to get around the downtown loop.

Like this one?

Attachment 21006

**rbdetsport** · July-31-13, 07:38 AM

Originally Posted by detmsp

What bothers me about the plan is that I feel like it stands in the way of light rail service. Woodward is a major artery and deserves to have light rail that goes out to 8 mile and beyond. If we get to a time where we have the money to build that, this streetcar system will be in the way. Either you'll have to rip out M1 rail [[making it a waste of money) or you'll end up with a hodgepodge service where you take the light rail from 8 mile to midtown and then transfer to the street car to get downtown. That means it won't really be rapid transit because you'll be going super slow on the street cars once you hit midtown and you'll have to wait for a transfer.

I get that we have to start somewhere... I just wish that somewhere fit in a bit more nicely with where we want to eventually be.

Also, prof, can you elaborate on why this will be more reliable than busses? My understanding [[and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that M1 will co-mingle with traffic. So if there's a traffic jam, M1 will be late. I'm not seeing how this will be more reliable than a bus, so please enlighten me

Unless plans have changed, the technology on the rail line will utilize a hybrid system that can move at faster speeds in its own right-of-way. The Siemens vehicles that have been ordered have this capability. In the future, I expect them to expand the streetcar line into more of a commuter system past Grand Boulevard. Unless plans have changed, in regards to the technology..

One thing I was concerned about is that they were still deciding whether or not to place electric overhead wires along the route. This concerns me, because I assume that is required for the longer term plans. I wonder what they decided.

**compn** · July-31-13, 07:43 AM

as a replacement for the bus system it sounds like a good idea.
obviously i dont know how much traffic goes midtown<>downtown.
if theres private funds, it must be a lot of traffic.

**DetroitPlanner** · July-31-13, 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by Hermod

You can give an ordinary bus driver a "magic gadget" to change the lights in his favor as well. I wonder how long before those thingies would get out on the black market so lots of drivers would have them as well.

I agree, but I think you are paranoid about the average driver getting one. You will need the scale of a larger vehicle to make it worthwhile. I am in favor of giving this to first responders as well due to the proximity of Woodward to hospitals.

**DetroitPlanner** · July-31-13, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by rbdetsport

Unless plans have changed, the technology on the rail line will utilize a hybrid system that can move at faster speeds in its own right-of-way. The Siemens vehicles that have been ordered have this capability. In the future, I expect them to expand the streetcar line into more of a commuter system past Grand Boulevard. Unless plans have changed, in regards to the technology..

One thing I was concerned about is that they were still deciding whether or not to place electric overhead wires along the route. This concerns me, because I assume that is required for the longer term plans. I wonder what they decided.

There is currently a study going on along the entire length of Woodward to determine the best mode. For more information or to submit comments: http://www.woodwardanalysis.com/

**Hermod** · July-31-13, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

I agree, but I think you are paranoid about the average driver getting one. You will need the scale of a larger vehicle to make it worthwhile. I am in favor of giving this to first responders as well due to the proximity of Woodward to hospitals.

It has about the same complexity as a garage door opener. It is just a matter of some entrprenur hacking into the underlying codes and developing a device to mimic those codes.

**professorscott** · July-31-13, 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

One way it will be more reliable will be that it will use GPS to time lights so that waits at reds will be minimized, but you can also do that with BRT. It will also be privately operated, which may make it more reliable, but that is not a guarantee.

Not a guarantee? You realize who they're competing against, right? I bet anyone here a thousand dollars that M1 Rail is more reliable than DDOT. WSJ had a great op-ed the other day, written by a guy who was the contracted COO to DDOT when Ron Freeland was running the shop. Go buy a copy and read it. Then you won't take me up on my offer of a bet.

**bailey** · July-31-13, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by 5speedz34

You have to start somewhere.

Guess what? You want to get downtown from Midtown/WSU/New Center? Deal with a under-served bus system or drive the 2-3 miles and pay and park your car.

Somewhat relevant story; I live in Woodbridge and tonight went to the Tigers game with my Uncle who epitomizes suburbanites in this region. He picked me up before hand and I told him I would probably take the bus home. He was flabbergasted. He's one of the many people who leave games early just to avoid traffic, a practice I despise. He said, "Wouldn't you rather have a ride home??" Guess what, I went out after the game, met up friends in Harmonie Park, had a drink and a smoke, and a full hour after the game watched people sitting in traffic trying to get out of downtown. Walked over to the RPTC hopped on the 21 Grand River bus and was home in 15 min. Granted I live off of Grand River but I essentially did about the same distance the M1 will cover on Woodward. You have to start somewhere.

I thought Barbara Rose Collins decided it was to be called Paradise Valley now?

**tkelly1986** · July-31-13, 09:04 AM

Here is the article referenced above, It not only sheds light on DDOT's incompetence, but also gives an example of overall mismanagement and absurdity in the city's gov structure.

http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB10001424127887323829104578623422748612116-lMyQjAxMTAzMDMwMDEzNDAyWj.html

**rbdetsport** · July-31-13, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

There is currently a study going on along the entire length of Woodward to determine the best mode. For more information or to submit comments: http://www.woodwardanalysis.com/

It looks as if the alternative has already been selected. That is unfortunate. I have a strong belief that once BRT is in place, LRT will not be implemented as a "next step".

Also, in the evaluation criteria, one that was highly considered was "Integration with Existing System [[feeder routes)". First of all, what existing system...? Secondly, how is BRT any better than LRT at connecting with feeder routes? And third, was M1 Rail not considered a "feeder route"? If so, that was a huge mistake. I feel like the evaluting strategy used was light on the technical details and too much based on public opinion. Also, who performed this study? If it was Parsons Brinckerhoff....

**esp1986** · July-31-13, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by professorscott

The point of the streetcar isn't that it's going to be fast; it isn't and doesn't need to be. The distance it covers is not vast. The point is that it is going to be frequent and reliable, neither of which can be said about DDOT's service these last several years. It will give people a viable travel option between downtown and midtown, and in practice will extend the reach of DPM for people using that to get around the downtown loop.

This piques an important question, in my opinion...

Seeing as this is a streetcar, will it ride like a bus? Meaning, will it only stop when there are people waiting or someone requests a stop? Or will it stop at every stop regardless? This would very much factor into travel times.