Looks Like Dan Gilbert has some competition

**RambiskoWatts** · July-24-13, 03:17 PM

http://detroit.curbed.com/archives/2...pment.php#more

A bidding war in Detroit?

**emu steve** · July-24-13, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by RambiskoWatts

http://detroit.curbed.com/archives/2...pment.php#more

A bidding war in Detroit?

Is the competition for real?

A soccer team and stadium?

I'm not familiar with the costs, etc. of a proposed D.C. United stadium but I'd suspect the dollar amount is pretty high.

I'll try to check what a first rate stadium cost [[exclusive of land).

EDIT: Here is an article on other soccer stadiums. A proposed D.C. United is $157M. The median cost of 10 listed stadium is around $125M.

http://www.blackandredunited.com/sta...-buzzard-point

**Spartan** · July-24-13, 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by emu steve

Is the competition for real?

A soccer team and stadium?

I'm not familiar with the costs, etc. of a proposed D.C. United stadium but I'd suspect the dollar amount is pretty high.

I'll try to check what a first rate stadium cost [[exclusive of land).

well according to the article, it would be a $1B project in total [[all privately funded). I love the idea, but these owners don't seem to have the best rep, and it seems maybe a bit pie-in-the-sky to me.

**Cliffy** · July-24-13, 03:32 PM

Gilbert should get it because he actually follows through. That Silverdome guy has basically given up on the Silverdome and the roof has been torn off since last winter. His track record is one of failure.

**emu steve** · July-24-13, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by Cliffy

Gilbert should get it because he actually follows through. That Silverdome guy has basically given up on the Silverdome and the roof has been torn off since last winter. His track record is one of failure.

?: Refresh my memory why the guy bought the Silverdome, what he planned to do with it and why he didn't.

Did he have a realistic plan?

When did he buy the Silverdome?

Etc. etc.

**Zug** · July-24-13, 03:51 PM

They planned to convert the Silverdome into a two-level sports/entertainment complex. The top level was to be an open air soccer stadium [[to lure MLS here), with an arena & theater housed on the first floor underneath the soccer stadium. As you know, none of this has happened. Now they want a downtown stadium...riiiiiight. Sell the land to Gilbert, please.

**Richard** · July-24-13, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by Zug

They planned to convert the Silverdome into a two-level sports/entertainment complex. The top level was to be an open air soccer stadium [[to lure MLS here), with an arena & theater housed on the first floor underneath the soccer stadium. As you know, none of this has happened. Now they want a downtown stadium...riiiiiight. Sell the land to Gilbert, please.

They were also heavy backers of expanding casinos in the state and was going to convert the silverdome into one should it pass at the time,which means no cut in stone use.

I believe he wanted to turn the Pen building into a casino also which is why they wanted to demolish the bank,then retreated from the backlash because it was at the same time as the casino push and created lots of bad publicity
at the time,just like now wanting to demolish a historic building because it is in the way.

Would this not be considered more in competition with the pizza place stadium then Mr Gilbert ?

Can the city and state afford two massive tax captures at once,that would create two large dead zones for the next 30 years,and only add service related jobs at the most.

It pains me to go along with Mr. Gilbert on this one ,providing there is full public disclosure.

**Zads07** · July-24-13, 04:24 PM

Shameless plug, but I wrote this for Curbed last summer when he wanted to demolish the State Savings Bank.

http://detroit.curbed.com/archives/2...d-be-saved.php

I'll tell ya, the idea of another stadium kind of intrigues me, yet shows me we need more than just stadiums in this city. Let Gilbert buy it because he follows through on what he says he's gonna do, and not only that, his plan is actually pretty decent too.

**Gistok** · July-24-13, 05:45 PM

Great article Zads07!! Well stated, especially about Penn Station in NYC... the NY Times at the time correctly commented "We will probably be remembered more for what we have destroyed, than what we have saved"... and those words still ring very true!!

I agree that Gilbert should get development rights on that site... it's a continuation of the Campus Martius to Greektown developments that he's undertaking.

If this Canadian group wants to spend $1 billion... they should piggyback onto the Ilitch's VAST land holdings in west Foxtown and south Midtown. a 1.65 billion development would be much better for that huge parcel of vacant land... and a combined $1.65 billion would get much more bang for the buck than just $650 million that Ilitch was planning. One would hope Ilitch has the sense to consider a merged project.

If the Canadian owned group wants to built highrise offices and residential... I would think that the city owned Statler block and Ilitch owned Tuller block would be ideal... and maybe a soccer stadium behind the Fox just next door.

It's not that there's a lack of development land in the downtown area, so fighting over the same parcel seems almost absurd!! Also... this developer again committed a faux pas by talking about taking down the Albert Kahn designed old Police HQ, again without consideration.... also... I hope the Canadian group has the smarts to know that there will NOT be another casino in Detoit.

**Hypestyles** · July-24-13, 06:31 PM

Pro Soccer in downtown Detroit is good. Hopefully this will happen soon, and will have community-relations soccer programs with urban schools.

**401don** · July-24-13, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Great article Zads07!! Well stated, especially about Penn Station in NYC... the NY Times at the time correctly commented "We will probably be remembered more for what we have destroyed, than what we have saved"... and those words still ring very true!!

I agree that Gilbert should get development rights on that site... it's a continuation of the Campus Martius to Greektown developments that he's undertaking.

If this Canadian group wants to spend $1 billion... they should piggyback onto the Ilitch's VAST land holdings in west Foxtown and south Midtown. a 1.65 billion development would be much better for that huge parcel of vacant land... and a combined $1.65 billion would get much more bang for the buck than just $650 million that Ilitch was planning. One would hope Ilitch has the sense to consider a merged project.

If the Canadian owned group wants to built highrise offices and residential... I would think that the city owned Statler block and Ilitch owned Tuller block would be ideal... and maybe a soccer stadium behind the Fox just next door.

It's not that there's a lack of development land in the downtown area, so fighting over the same parcel seems almost absurd!! Also... this developer again committed a faux pas by talking about taking down the Albert Kahn designed old Police HQ, again without consideration.... also... I hope the Canadian group has the smarts to know that there will NOT be another casino in Detoit.

Don't waste your breath discussing anything these clowns propose. They have as much chance as you or me at buying this property.

**Novine** · July-24-13, 08:44 PM

You can tell it's crisis time when the clowns come rolling out with their pie-in-the-sky plans. Where's the guy with the personal transit hydrogen-powered cars? I'm sure that will be next.

**Cliffy** · July-24-13, 09:47 PM

Too bad Michael Jackson and Don Barden are both dead or they would propose another theme park.

**Spartan** · July-25-13, 12:02 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

If this Canadian group wants to spend $1 billion... they should piggyback onto the Ilitch's VAST land holdings in west Foxtown and south Midtown. a 1.65 billion development would be much better for that huge parcel of vacant land... and a combined $1.65 billion would get much more bang for the buck than just $650 million that Ilitch was planning. One would hope Ilitch has the sense to consider a merged project.

If the Canadian owned group wants to built highrise offices and residential... I would think that the city owned Statler block and Ilitch owned Tuller block would be ideal... and maybe a soccer stadium behind the Fox just next door.

This would be great. Sell the Fail Jail to Gilbert and have these guys purchase some land for development behind the Fox to coincide with the new "district" Ilitch is supposed to building. Lots of land to build a stadium over there, and Harry's could still be the soccer bar :-)

**emu steve** · July-25-13, 12:49 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Great article Zads07!! Well stated, especially about Penn Station in NYC... the NY Times at the time correctly commented "We will probably be remembered more for what we have destroyed, than what we have saved"... and those words still ring very true!!

I agree that Gilbert should get development rights on that site... it's a continuation of the Campus Martius to Greektown developments that he's undertaking.

If this Canadian group wants to spend $1 billion... they should piggyback onto the Ilitch's VAST land holdings in west Foxtown and south Midtown. a 1.65 billion development would be much better for that huge parcel of vacant land... and a combined $1.65 billion would get much more bang for the buck than just $650 million that Ilitch was planning. One would hope Ilitch has the sense to consider a merged project.

If the Canadian owned group wants to built highrise offices and residential... I would think that the city owned Statler block and Ilitch owned Tuller block would be ideal... and maybe a soccer stadium behind the Fox just next door.

It's not that there's a lack of development land in the downtown area, so fighting over the same parcel seems almost absurd!! Also... this developer again committed a faux pas by talking about taking down the Albert Kahn designed old Police HQ, again without consideration.... also... I hope the Canadian group has the smarts to know that there will NOT be another casino in Detoit.

In all due respect, I'm not sure that is how developers think.

They want the land that they want; not the land we want them to want.

That land off of Gratiot, and near Greektown, is much more desirable to them [[all developers) then behind the Fox.

I'm sure though that Gilbert wants to control the lands around Greektown for reasons Gistok mentions, i.e., it fits with his ongoing development plans.

As for me, I'm just glad folks want to do something with those blocks.

**emu steve** · July-25-13, 05:14 AM

Originally Posted by emu steve

Is the competition for real?

A soccer team and stadium?

I'm not familiar with the costs, etc. of a proposed D.C. United stadium but I'd suspect the dollar amount is pretty high.

I'll try to check what a first rate stadium cost [[exclusive of land).

EDIT: Here is an article on other soccer stadiums. A proposed D.C. United is $157M. The median cost of 10 listed stadium is around $125M.

http://www.blackandredunited.com/sta...-buzzard-point

It seems I posted this Wednesday and Wednesday night a story broke that D.C. will get a soccer stadium. Cost: 300M not counting land. And the land deal sounds pretty expensive too.

EDIT2: The cost might include the cost of land through a complicated land swap where a developer gives land and cash for other developed property that D.C. owns [[a D.C. government office building).

Some of that cash will be used to acquire other needed land.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...y.html?hpid=z1

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/lo...216832291.html

**mikeg19** · July-25-13, 06:16 AM

Originally Posted by Zug

They planned to convert the Silverdome into a two-level sports/entertainment complex. The top level was to be an open air soccer stadium [[to lure MLS here), with an arena & theater housed on the first floor underneath the soccer stadium. As you know, none of this has happened. Now they want a downtown stadium...riiiiiight. Sell the land to Gilbert, please.

You've managed to echo my sentiments. I'm guessing they realized that after buying the Silverdome, or excuse me, fleecing it from the city, MLS told them no way in hell were they putting a franchise that far away from downtown. And now another stadium next to two stadiums plus the new hockey arena? Seems kinda ridiculous, especially with this groups track record for development. But who knows, it could happen. As long as this is quick and construction starts fairly soon.

**Cliffy** · July-25-13, 07:10 AM

They didn't fleece the Silverdome, nobody wanted it. This is kind of like foreign people buying homes in Detroit for $500. There is a reason the locals don't buy them, they know better! Same goes with the dome. If it was worth anything, the local elites would have bought it.

It has nothing to do with downtown. The MLS wants soccer only stadiums with a 20-30k seating capacity. They are very strict about where they play. They don't want a soccer team at the silverdome or Ford Field for that matter. Again, these guys don't have the money to build a stadium and run a team. I'd rather have someone like Illitch who is a billionaire then these out of towners coming in here trying to fleece the city.

**Novine** · July-25-13, 08:28 AM

The last thing downtown needs is another stadium sitting empty half the year sucking up space and not generating any activity. What are we, Chester, PA?

http://www.psmag.com/business-econom...problem-62665/

**emu steve** · July-25-13, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by Cliffy

They didn't fleece the Silverdome, nobody wanted it. This is kind of like foreign people buying homes in Detroit for $500. There is a reason the locals don't buy them, they know better! Same goes with the dome. If it was worth anything, the local elites would have bought it.

It has nothing to do with downtown. The MLS wants soccer only stadiums with a 20-30k seating capacity. They are very strict about where they play. They don't want a soccer team at the silverdome or Ford Field for that matter. Again, these guys don't have the money to build a stadium and run a team. I'd rather have someone like Illitch who is a billionaire then these out of towners coming in here trying to fleece the city.

Agree. Let's not castigate someone for taking a chance on something no one else wants.

He took a long shot chance on something and got stuck holding a lemon.

It is a shame that both this developer and Gilbert want the same land [[usually in Detroit and the CBD finding one person wants to develop land can be difficult. E.g., DTE is doing their thing with the block across from GAR building because something [[a park) is better than nothing).

**Eber Brock Ward** · July-25-13, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by emu steve

Agree. Let's not castigate someone for taking a chance on something no one else wants.

He took a long shot chance on something and got stuck holding a lemon.

It is a shame that both this developer and Gilbert want the same land [[usually in Detroit and the CBD finding one person wants to develop land can be difficult. E.g., DTE is doing their thing with the block across from GAR building because something [[a park) is better than nothing).

Disagreed. There is a difference between "taking a chance," where you give it an honest effort and keep the property up, and "being a slumlord."

This Canadian group has shown themselves to be much more the former than the latter with respect to the Silverdome.

**mikeg19** · July-25-13, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Cliffy

They didn't fleece the Silverdome, nobody wanted it. This is kind of like foreign people buying homes in Detroit for $500. There is a reason the locals don't buy them, they know better! Same goes with the dome. If it was worth anything, the local elites would have bought it.

It has nothing to do with downtown. The MLS wants soccer only stadiums with a 20-30k seating capacity. They are very strict about where they play. They don't want a soccer team at the silverdome or Ford Field for that matter. Again, these guys don't have the money to build a stadium and run a team. I'd rather have someone like Illitch who is a billionaire then these out of towners coming in here trying to fleece the city.

Actually somebody did want it, to the tune of $20 million. It was going to be turned into a entertainment complex, but Pontiac declined and let it go to auction where the current owners essentially stole it prom the city at $500K. Yes, I understand it was Pontiac's fault, not the current property owners fault for getting it at that price. But as was mentioned, after MLS pretty much told them to piss off unless they had a stadium ready to go downtown, they haven't put anywhere near the money they said they would into the Silverdome.

**Bham1982** · July-25-13, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by mikeg19

You've managed to echo my sentiments. I'm guessing they realized that after buying the Silverdome, or excuse me, fleecing it from the city, MLS told them no way in hell were they putting a franchise that far away from downtown.

You realize that the vast majority of MLS venues are in suburbs, right? Almost all the new MLS stadiums are in suburbs.

**Gistok** · July-25-13, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by emu steve

In all due respect, I'm not sure that is how developers think.

They want the land that they want; not the land we want them to want.

That land off of Gratiot, and near Greektown, is much more desirable to them [[all developers) then behind the Fox.

I'm sure though that Gilbert wants to control the lands around Greektown for reasons Gistok mentions, i.e., it fits with his ongoing development plans.

As for me, I'm just glad folks want to do something with those blocks.

Ummmm.... the closest residential OR high rise office space is many blocks from this NE corner of downtown... how is it that the land at the NE corner of downtown is more desireable than Grand Circus Park... possible location for a high rise office and residential tower [[surrounded by Broderick, Whitney, Kales, et al). I only mentioned the behind Foxtown area as the location for the soccer stadium. A soccer stadium along Gratiot will end up like the Joe... wedged into an area that may be too small for what they want to built there. I was NOT implying that anyone would want to build a high rise office building in west Foxtown... that would be a silly place to put an office tower...

This Canadian group does NOT have a track record in Detroit... so they're NOT going to get the justice campus location anyway... might as well try to steer them to the Ilitch area. Whether or not THEY WANT it is up to them... just what THEY DO WANT... is not what they're going to get....

**Spartan** · July-25-13, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

You realize that the vast majority of MLS venues are in suburbs, right? Almost all the new MLS stadiums are in suburbs.

It's actually pretty close to half and half, and the most successful ones generally are within the cities, many right downtown. Only suburb-based LA [[which suburbs are so big they're pretty much the city) and KC are in the top 8, and only city-based DC [[which plays in a shitty old football stadium) and Columbus are in the bottom 11.

City [[Seattle)
Suburb [[LA)
City [[Montreal)
City [[Portland)
City [[Vancouver)
Suburb [[KC)
City [[Houston)
City [[Toronto)
Suburb [[Salt Lake)
Suburb [[NY)
Suburb [[Philadelphia)
Suburb [[Dallas)
Suburb [[San Jose)
Suburb [[Colorado)
City [[Columbus)
Suburb [[NE)
City [[DC)
Suburb [[Chicago)
Suburb [[Chivas)