Orr is looking at out of state influence to change Detroit's city charter.

[brizee]

And supporters of this horseshit have the balls to call those that oppose this dictator garbage [[a majority of Michigan BTW) conspiracy theorists.

It seems every step of the way theory becomes fact.

[Wesley Mouch]

And supporters of this horseshit have the balls to call those that oppose this dictator garbage [[a majority of Michigan BTW) conspiracy theorists.

It seems every step of the way theory becomes fact.

I can't what you're saying here. What theory? What fact?

[corktownyuppie]

And supporters of this horseshit have the balls to call those that oppose this dictator garbage [[a majority of Michigan BTW) conspiracy theorists.

It seems every step of the way theory becomes fact.

Not sure I understand. He said that he was going to:

- Look to other successful cities to examine "best practices" that might help us run better....collect more taxes...streamline services...etc.

- Then he was going to *propose changes* to the City Charter that the citizens would have to debate and vote on.

Not only do I not think this is a problem, I think it's a problem if we're NOT doing this.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

Seems like EXACTLY what Orr should be doing. Restructuring and eliminating debt is one thing, but setting up a better system of governance is essential to keeping things from tanking again.

[Novine]

Whatever one thinks of the current city charter, it was the result of a long and extensive public process with voter approval for the changes that were made. Orr plans on trashing all that in the name of "good governance". If you're a city voter, why should you even care anymore? It's clear that your vote doesn't count for anything.

[SWMAP]

I am a life-long Detroiter and I have a very good private school education. Even with all that background, and a career in a civic field in Detroit, I don't think I have the background to contribute much to determining how Detroit should be governed. I watched the Charter Commission get formed, I read all the imploring here to get involved but I didn't want to be a part of some "folk wisdom" effort - and isn't it exactly that when a mixed bag of residents with not much education and chips on their shoulders get together to hammer out something, led by hidden hands of manipulative organizers?
The Charter has proved itself already to be convoluted, restrictive rather than liberating, narrow, pretentious for a shrinking community.
I do support Kevyn Orr's desire to seek out best practices and practitioners of good government and I will participate when better ideas are presented to the citizens. Have you ever met Rosemary Robinson? It is frightening that she was elected to the Charter Commission to write a governance document for us. And that city lawyer who lost his job for helping Kilpatrick keep his secrets. I just am tired of hearing that the people's wisdom is necessary and best when that is patently not true in an instance like the City Charter.

[mwilbert]

This doesn't sound like a big problem to me. Orr isn't imposing a new charter; it would need to be adopted Personally, I'd love to see Detroit adopt a city manager form of government.

[TexasT]

The city charter is terribly written. Who the hell wrote it? As a lawyer, my job is to look for holes in contracts and when I look at the charter, all I see is Swiss cheese [[which leads to things like the Duggan fiasco).

Good for Orr. God bless him.

[professorscott]

Whatever one thinks of the current city charter, it was the result of a long and extensive public process with voter approval for the changes that were made. Orr plans on trashing all that in the name of "good governance". If you're a city voter, why should you even care anymore? It's clear that your vote doesn't count for anything.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury." - Alexander Fraser Tytler

[Wesley Mouch]

Whatever one thinks of the current city charter, it was the result of a long and extensive public process with voter approval for the changes that were made. Orr plans on trashing all that in the name of "good governance". If you're a city voter, why should you even care anymore? It's clear that your vote doesn't count for anything.

Novine, why so pessimistic?

The bankruptcy judge was appointed under duly adopted laws of the US, State, and City. I'll accept that not everything about our democracy is perfect, but its pretty good.

Vote does count. But votes aren't absolute. When a vote calls for discrimination against blacks, your vote is overruled. When a vote puts a city into financial and structural mess, your vote is overruled. But the vote is still one of the most basic and precious things we have. Don't trash it just because in a few cases its not the final deciding factor. Checks and balances, baby.

[313WX]

Not sure I understand. He said that he was going to:

- Look to other successful cities to examine "best practices" that might help us run better....collect more taxes...streamline services...etc.

- Then he was going to *propose changes* to the City Charter that the citizens would have to debate and vote on.

Not only do I not think this is a problem, I think it's a problem if we're NOT doing this.

I have to agree.

In fact, I also like that that he's consulting organizations that have no ties to Detroit or Michigan to assist him with this.

[Honky Tonk]

But, but, but, we've ALWAYS done it THAT way!!!!!!

[Zug]

I am a life-long Detroiter and I have a very good private school education. Even with all that background, and a career in a civic field in Detroit, I don't think I have the background to contribute much to determining how Detroit should be governed. I watched the Charter Commission get formed, I read all the imploring here to get involved but I didn't want to be a part of some "folk wisdom" effort - and isn't it exactly that when a mixed bag of residents with not much education and chips on their shoulders get together to hammer out something, led by hidden hands of manipulative organizers?
The Charter has proved itself already to be convoluted, restrictive rather than liberating, narrow, pretentious for a shrinking community.
I do support Kevyn Orr's desire to seek out best practices and practitioners of good government and I will participate when better ideas are presented to the citizens. Have you ever met Rosemary Robinson? It is frightening that she was elected to the Charter Commission to write a governance document for us. And that city lawyer who lost his job for helping Kilpatrick keep his secrets. I just am tired of hearing that the people's wisdom is necessary and best when that is patently not true in an instance like the City Charter.

I agree. A lot of people are resistant to things that seem elitist...however, sometimes we need people with expertise to figure out tough issues. This actually sounds like one of Orr's better moves. I'd much rather structure things based on some of the top minds in policy making than blindly support a charter proven to be flawed. And why keep the current charter other than "tradition" and a hollow argument of "local control?"

[Hermod]

Brizee must be Joann Watson's nephew in fear of losing a "friends and family" no-work job.

[Richard]

Every city is different,the main reason of the new charter was the transition to representation by districts and create a level playing field for every neighborhood ,not just a few.

The second step would be the new elections by districts,because without a strong city council that listens and helps,because without representation the charter is powerless .

Once you have your voice back you use the city council to tweak the charter to how it best works for the city as a whole.

Step one is finished,step two is get representation in your district,step three make the changes that make your district and the city stronger.

Charter is not cut in stone,more so a blueprint.

[Eber Brock Ward]

But, but, but, we've ALWAYS done it THAT way!!!!!!

At work, I call this argument "estoppel by prior f@ck up" and do not accept it.

[Honky Tonk]

At work, I call this argument "estoppel by prior f@ck up" and do not accept it.

Same here.

[Richard]

I think it is hard to place blame when you have 90 years of the same thing and see no options.

The biggest thing is as the new city council elections are coming up, those who wish to represent a district need to be out there educating and explain clearly how they will represent those that will entrust them to be their voice,and that their voice will be heard.

[Gistok]

Orr said... “We’re looking at practices that are inefficient and don’t help us,”

Brizee.... I think the horseshit is coming from somewhere... but it isn't Orr... "methinks you doth protest too much"....

[Richard]

Orr said... “We’re looking at practices that are inefficient and don’t help us,”

Brizee.... I think the horseshit is coming from somewhere... but it isn't Orr... "methinks you doth protest too much"....

I give him/her credit though,he has dropped all of the cussing from the posts which shows he is open to change and if he did not care about the city he would not post his concerns while keeping an open mind for change.

If we do not understand something,we should question it and look for answers from all sides to better understand,if we do not,then we become one of the sheep.

[Novine]

"The bankruptcy judge was appointed under duly adopted laws of the US, State, and City. I'll accept that not everything about our democracy is perfect, but its pretty good. "

What does this have to do with Orr undoing the city charter that was just adopted by city voters? If the city charter was 50 years old and never had been revised, that would be one thing. But voters went through the process of electing a charter commission, holding public hearings and adopting a new charter. Now Orr wants to trash it because he doesn't like certain portions of it. Again, if I was a city voter, I would ask "why bother?"

[Locke09]

I give him/her credit though,he has dropped all of the cussing from the posts which shows he is open to change and if he did not care about the city he would not post his concerns while keeping an open mind for change.

If we do not understand something,we should question it and look for answers from all sides to better understand,if we do not,then we become one of the sheep.

That's why I never ever criticize people who question things or look upon things with skepticism - not even children. Closed minds are the ones that try to denigrate people for asking questions, addressing suspicions and yes, even imagining conspiracies. Mistakes are more likely to be made when people don't question things than when they do question things.

Sometimes we're so busy salivating over the idea of someone giving us some peanuts that we don't even see the more valuable things we might be losing. My father taught me that this is how people typically get scammed. The con artist offers them a little and takes a lot while they're not paying attention.

[brizee]

"The bankruptcy judge was appointed under duly adopted laws of the US, State, and City. I'll accept that not everything about our democracy is perfect, but its pretty good. "

What does this have to do with Orr undoing the city charter that was just adopted by city voters? If the city charter was 50 years old and never had been revised, that would be one thing. But voters went through the process of electing a charter commission, holding public hearings and adopting a new charter. Now Orr wants to trash it because he doesn't like certain portions of it. Again, if I was a city voter, I would ask "why bother?"

Pretty much.

This adminstration [[which Orr is an apendage) hasn't given me a reason to trust or believe anything they say. And they don't care what citizens [[or is it customers?) have to say.

This whole nu-EFM is an end run-around the will of Michigan voters anyway[[ Orr's own words not mine).

Why not just say fuck it, bring in ALEC to rewrite the charter? Fully extend that middle finger into people's faces.

[corktownyuppie]

Why not just say fuck it, bring in ALEC to rewrite the charter? Fully extend that middle finger into people's faces.

I still don't get it. Maybe I'm just dumb. Even if ALEC drafted the whole list of ideas, Detroiters would still have to debate and approve any changes. We take what we like, we reject what we don't like.

Plus, I think it's counterproductive to focus on WHOSE idea and WHOSE proposal it is. Why no focus on the idea itself on its own merits? Novine and I don't agree on most anything but when he/she explained the actuarial challenges of a closed pension system vs an open system, my reaction was "Hm. That's an interesting point...one that begs further discussion."

I don't care if the idea comes from Rick Snyder or Diane Bukowski. Lets understand them, deliberate them, and keep improving them.

[Locke09]

This actually makes voting even more important. You will always be at the mercy of the integrity of your elected officials, so you need to choose carefully.

Voters need to start caring more about the makeup of their state government. Are people being elected who will represent the will of the people, or who will circumvent the will of the people? Will an Attorney General fight to uphold the State Constitution all the time or only when it is convenient? Will they argue "states rights" only when they are trying to avoid ObamaCare or also when figuring out who will decide a case involving interpretation of the State Constitution? Are they against Big Brother Government in general or only when it's federal Big Brother?