Justice for Trayvon [Protest Rally in Grand Circus Park]

**noise** · July-15-13, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Its very easy to say that. If Zimmerman were dead on the pavement, would it be a bad benchmark? If Martin killed Zimmerman against the pavement would you let Martin walk? I would.

Especially since I've broken my nose.

If Zimmerman were dead on the pavement, it wouldn't have been due to the nose.

**Downtown Lady** · July-15-13, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by RickBeall

No danger of this becoming imflammatory.

It didn't.

**Downtown Lady** · July-15-13, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by Ltdave

when is the 'peace walk' for the 13 service members killed by Hasan at Ft Hood?

the 'stand your ground' law wasnt used in the defense because at the point George was on his back getting his head beat against the sidewalk, it became just straight out self-defense against a lethal attack...

there were 35 some 'children' shot and killed in Chicago last month. whens the 'peace rally' for them?

You are free to schedule these peace rallys. Please share the details with us after you do.

**Wesley Mouch** · July-15-13, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by noise

Especially since I've broken my nose.

If Zimmerman were dead on the pavement, it wouldn't have been due to the nose.

Right you are. It wouldn't have been the broken nose -- it probably would have been the head bangs on the pavement. Oh, its so easy to judge after the fact and encourage calm, reasoned judgement.

**Eber Brock Ward** · July-15-13, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

I can live with that position. My issue is with a law that allows deadly force based on one's subjective experience and makes not demand to de-escalate potential conflict as a first choice.

There's a reason why we have rules of engagement in military conflict; all it takes is one misunderstanding and two countries can be at war. The worst thing is that you can now have two people arguing with each other claiming that they both turned to deadly force because they both feared for their life...knowing that the legal system will always favor the survivor against the deceased, we are now providing incentive to be the first to shoot and with the biggest gun.

I don't see this as a moral or legal positive in any way.

CTY,

I agree with your concerns about SYG laws, but it's important to note that Zimmerman didn't assert a SYG defense, instead relying on regular, old-fashioned legal defenses like self-defense/excusable homocide.

**Jimaz** · July-15-13, 11:12 AM

From today's Detroit News: Zimmerman verdict ignites protests

Civil rights charges weighed amid rallies from Detroit to Calif.

**Johnnny5** · July-15-13, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by Eber Brock Ward

CTY,

I agree with your concerns about SYG laws, but it's important to note that Zimmerman didn't assert a SYG defense, instead relying on regular, old-fashioned legal defenses like self-defense/excusable homocide.

Yeah, but some people will continue to ignore that fact.

**Wesley Mouch** · July-15-13, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Johnnny5

Yeah, but some people will continue to ignore that fact.

Also absent from the discussion is that Zimmerman's non-white race.

The more I think about this incident and the raction, the more it seems to me to be an internal 'black' discussion about where black America wants to fit into the multicultural America.

How does black America feel about its trajectory of minority marginalization in favor of Hispanics. Is that a factor?

**poobert** · July-15-13, 11:57 AM

Our justice system isn't perfect. We know that. You are given a trial by a jury of your peers and guilt must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. All this verdict is saying is that there was reasonable doubt. It sucks sometimes, but does somebody honestly have a better idea? What if you had to stand before a jury one day?

I don't really agree with this verdict, but I accept it.

Is "justice" just another word for "we didn't get our way"? From what I can tell we have no reason to believe that these jurors did not do their duty. When I was on a jury I can say we all took our charge very seriously.

Perhaps Sharia law would be in order? We could look to North Korea, perhaps? Summary executions? What kind of "justice" are we talking here?

**antongast** · July-15-13, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Also absent from the discussion is that Zimmerman's non-white race.

The more I think about this incident and the raction, the more it seems to me to be an internal 'black' discussion about where black America wants to fit into the multicultural America.

How does black America feel about its trajectory of minority marginalization in favor of Hispanics. Is that a factor?

I have no idea what you're talking about and I don't think you do either. This is about whether or not we regard black people as sufficiently human that killing them is viewed as a crime in our society. "Trajectory of minority marginalization" is just pseudo-intellectual word salad.

**michimoby** · July-15-13, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by antongast

I have no idea what you're talking about and I don't think you do either. This is about whether or not we regard black people as sufficiently human that killing them is viewed as a crime in our society. "Trajectory of minority marginalization" is just pseudo-intellectual word salad.

I can hypothesize with a high degree of confidence that Zimmerman will indeed be held liable for Trayvon's death in the civil trial. How about we wait until the civil trial wraps up before we make a generalized statement around whether or not we view black Americans with the same degree of empathy or concern when their lives are taken?

Are we suggesting that, because there was reasonable doubt that Casey Anthony killed her daughter, we don't value toddlers? Or because Amanda Knox was convicted, then acquitted, of the murder of her roommate that young British women aren't valued?

**TexasT** · July-15-13, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by poobert

Our justice system isn't perfect. We know that. You are given a trial by a jury of your peers and guilt must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. All this verdict is saying is that there was reasonable doubt. It sucks sometimes, but does somebody honestly have a better idea? What if you had to stand before a jury one day?

I don't really agree with this verdict, but I accept it.

I accept the verdict. I think it was in line with Florida's law. I really disagree with Florida's law though [[not Stand Your Ground, as that wasn't used; I'm referring to their self-defense law).

However, the verdict doesn't bother as much as some people's gleeful reaction to Zimmerman being acquitted.

**TexasT** · July-15-13, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by michimoby

I can hypothesize with a high degree of confidence that Zimmerman will indeed be held liable for Trayvon's death in the civil trial.

There is a good chance he is immune from civil liability under Florida's laws. If he wins on immunity, then the Martins are responsible for all of his legal bills. I'm not sure I could stomach them writing a big fat check to Zimmerman under the circumstances. He may have been found not guilty of murdering their son, but there's no dispute that he killed him.

There's a good chance they don't bring the lawsuit. They'd be facing hundreds of thousands in liability themselves.

**bailey** · July-15-13, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by TexasT

[[not Stand Your Ground, as that wasn't used; I'm referring to their self-defense law).

Isn't Michigan's substantially the same? We are a SYG state and here in MI the it's State's burden to prove BRD the defendant did not act in self defense.
If this were in Michigan, it would come out the same way.

However, the verdict doesn't bother as much as some people's gleeful reaction to Zimmerman being acquitted

I think the gleeful reaction is fine, if you thought he was wrongly accused.

**TexasT** · July-15-13, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

Isn't Michigan's substantially the same? We are a SYG state and here in MI the it's State's burden to prove BRD the defendant did not act in self defense.
If this were in Michigan, it would come out the same way.

No, the SYG law was not invoked. This has nothing to do with SYG.

I think the gleeful reaction is fine, if you thought he was wrongly accused.

Gleeful, no. A teenager was killed. Sorry, I'm a "letter of the law" person and there's nothing that makes me "gleeful" about this case.

**antongast** · July-15-13, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by michimoby

I can hypothesize with a high degree of confidence that Zimmerman will indeed be held liable for Trayvon's death in the civil trial. How about we wait until the civil trial wraps up before we make a generalized statement around whether or not we view black Americans with the same degree of empathy or concern when their lives are taken?

Are we suggesting that, because there was reasonable doubt that Casey Anthony killed her daughter, we don't value toddlers? Or because Amanda Knox was convicted, then acquitted, of the murder of her roommate that young British women aren't valued?

This is far from the only data point regarding American society and its relationship to black people. This case touched a nerve because the nerve was there to touch. It's not random.

IIRC, the Amanda Knox case did touch off a broader conversation about systematic bias in Italian society, because the handling of that particular case was seen as emblematic of some larger issues in the justice system there. Except in that instance, the accusation was that the system dealt with Knox more harshly than she deserved; it was Knox who was thought to have been dehumanized by the system, not the murder victim. Isn't that the only reason anybody was talking about that case?

I have no idea whether or how Casey Anthony fits here. I paid as little attention to that case as possible.

**TexasT** · July-15-13, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by antongast

This is far from the only data point regarding American society and its relationship to black people. This case touched a nerve because the nerve was there to touch.

Perfectly stated. Thank you.

**brizee** · July-15-13, 01:28 PM

I didn't think I was all that invested in this trial.

It did affect me though. I guess it's sort of good to get reminded just how much some lives are worth in this country [[shit the world) and exactly. Can't ever let myself get too complacent or comfortable.

George Zimmerman has a book deal waiting, probably a Fox News gig, maybe even a political run I'm sure.

And the jurors get to profit off of this too of course.

It was a very cheap price ultimately. GZ would have more punishment if he'd shot a dog.

**bailey** · July-15-13, 01:39 PM

no, the SYG law was not invoked. This has nothing to do with SYG.

Yes, I understand SYG was not invoked... I quoted your parenthetical, mentioned that Michigan is an SYG state and finished with the point that Michigan has the exact same burden of proof that FL does for self defense. If this were in Michigan, it would come out the same way under our laws. Florida is not some extreme version of self defense laws.

BTW...While Zimmerman did not ultimately use the "stand your ground" defense in his case, Sanford police did not arrest him until almost two months after the shooting because of the Florida stand your ground rules that require police to have specific evidence to refute a self defense claim in order to arrest someone claiming self defense.

Further, the SYG regime is tied up in self defense claims as per "stand your ground" the old requirement that one had to first try to flee [[retreat) before using deadly force is removed.

Gleeful, no. A teenager was killed. Sorry, I'm a "letter of the law" person and there's nothing that makes me "gleeful" about this case

a teenager was killed, however, sending an "innocent" man to jail is not a just result.

**Eber Brock Ward** · July-15-13, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by brizee

It did affect me though. I guess it's sort of good to get reminded just how much some lives are worth in this country [[shit the world) and exactly. Can't ever let myself get too complacent or comfortable.

George Zimmerman has a book deal waiting, probably a Fox News gig, maybe even a political run I'm sure.

This is why the Martins need to win in a civil trial. Not a dime of bacon should go to Zim for what happened.

**TexasT** · July-15-13, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

Yes, I understand SYG was not invoked... I quoted your parenthetical, mentioned that Michigan is an SYG state and finished with the point that Michigan has the exact same burden of proof that FL does for self defense. If this were in Michigan, it would come out the same way under our laws. Florida is not some extreme version of self defense laws.

BTW...While Zimmerman did not ultimately use the "stand your ground" defense in his case, Sanford police did not arrest him until almost two months after the shooting because of the Florida stand your ground rules that require police to have specific evidence to refute a self defense claim in order to arrest someone claiming self defense.

Further, the SYG regime is tied up in self defense claims as per "stand your ground" the old requirement that one had to first try to flee [[retreat) before using deadly force is removed.

Ok. I don't even see the relevance of SYG as it pertains to Zimmerman's acquittal. And I'm not sure Michigan's self-defense law is as broad as Florida's but even if it is, so? I still disagree with Florida's law if Zimmerman is not guilty of manslaughter under his version of the facts.

a teenager was killed, however, sending an "innocent" man to jail is not a just result.

Never said it did. But I am not "gleeful." And I don't believe that Zimmerman was morally innocent - he just didn't break Florida law.

**emu steve** · July-15-13, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by Eber Brock Ward

CTY,

I agree with your concerns about SYG laws, but it's important to note that Zimmerman didn't assert a SYG defense, instead relying on regular, old-fashioned legal defenses like self-defense/excusable homocide.

Two points:

1). Even though Zimmerman didn't request a SYG hearing the judge was required to, and did, read Florida's law which is SYG. My jaw drop when I heard the judge read the part of the law of self defense. That law could be used by a bar drunk who gets into a fight outside the bar and starts losing and decides to use lethal force.

2). What I find most objectionable about Zimmerman's account is that he used MAXIMUM lethal force, not minimal force to defend himself [[assuming that is what it was about).

Zimmerman could have shot Martin in the RIGHT SHOULDER, instead of the heart and that would have effectively provided Zimmerman the opportunity to do what he needed to do end the altercation.

**Jimaz** · July-15-13, 02:04 PM

From Democracy Now!, some more detailed background about the relationship between "Stand Your Ground" and this case:

After Aiding Zimmerman's Case, ALEC-Backed "Stand Your Ground" Could Threaten a Civil Lawsuit

**Downriviera** · July-15-13, 02:06 PM

I don't think Trayvon Martin makes a good poster child for marches and demonstrations. He was suspended from school when this happened and had been suspended in the past. There are reports he attacked a bus driver. He was caught with a breakin tool and womens jewelry. Not a hardened criminal but not innocent either. He did not deserve to die, but when you smash someones nose in and bash their head on concrete you are taking risks.

I would rather see images of Hadiya Pendleton, the 15 year old honor student from Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. College Preparatory High School in Chicago, who was shot and killed a week after performing at President Obama's inauguration.

**TexasT** · July-15-13, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by emu steve

My jaw drop when I heard the judge read the part of the law of self defense. That law could be used by a bar drunk who gets into a fight outside the bar and starts losing and decides to use lethal force.

Exactly. That's why I disagree with Florida's self-defense law.

Although as a Texan, not much room to talk. Hell, a guy killed a hooker when she didn't give him a refund and he [[properly) walked under Texas law [[you can protect your property with deadly force in Texas). God we live in a fucked up world.