Do people regret the 1967 riot?

[marshamusic]

IMO, many whites were just plain run out of the city by fear

Maybe some were run out by unjustified fear, but in my neighborhood the fear was justified. I watched the scenario unfold daily. Crime started escalating around 1963 and by 1967 it was pretty well underway. Initially, some left, most chose to hold their ground. Eventually the majority threw up their hands, quit, and moved out with the others. The same thing happened with the educated, affluent, black middle-class. They too became tired of being victims. That was the real downfall of Detroit because the tax base had left.

Do you have thoughts that you might share as to why [[based on your observation) the crime escalated in the early 60's?

I believe that the crime in the white neighborhoods like you describe was, in part, a result of block busting. As whites fled, homes were offered at below market rates, just to escape; a "lower", that is, less economically and socially strata of blacks, moved into communities that they might not otherwise have afforded, and many brought the social issues with them from the projects and lower class communities [[at that time, it would have been post-Black Bottom).

I also wonder if the impact of drugs [[heroin) began during that time, during those escalating years of the Vietnam War, especially.

I keep hearing that crime was a significant cause of white flight. But I never read here accounts of what crime was an issue in the early years of the flight, just after WWII [[I also read how "schools" were a cause of flight as well, but in the post war years when the flight started, Detroit still had an exemplary school system. So I'm curious).

At any rate, I do believe that crime was a factor during the early 60's, as you describe.

Would you [[or someone) talk about this more? As always, I think it is possible to have a decent discussion about these factors in our history.

[Bham1982]

Do you have thoughts that you might share as to why [[based on your observation) the crime escalated in the early 60's?

I believe that the crime in the white neighborhoods like you describe was, in part, a result of block busting. As whites fled, homes were offered at below market rates, just to escape; a "lower", that is, less economically and socially strata of blacks, moved into communities that they might not otherwise have afforded, and many brought the social issues with them from the projects and lower class communities [[at that time, it would have been post-Black Bottom).

I also wonder if the impact of drugs [[heroin) began during that time, during those escalating years of the Vietnam War, especially.

I keep hearing that crime was a significant cause of white flight. But I never read here accounts of what crime was an issue in the early years of the flight, just after WWII [[I also read how "schools" were a cause of flight as well, but in the post war years when the flight started, Detroit still had an exemplary school system. So I'm curious).

At any rate, I do believe that crime was a factor during the early 60's, as you describe.

Would you [[or someone) talk about this more? As always, I think it is possible to have a decent discussion about these factors in our history.

Crime soared nationally beginning in the late 50's through the early 70's, and Detroit was no exception. Many cities had tenfold increases in violent crime during that time period. I'm no crimininologist, but I would guess contributing factors would be increased heavy drug use, breakdown of rigid family and neigborhood standards, movement of African Americans from the South into Northern cities, and increased stratification of society.

[Honky Tonk]

Do you have thoughts that you might share as to why [[based on your observation) the crime escalated in the early 60's?

I believe that the crime in the white neighborhoods like you describe was, in part, a result of block busting. As whites fled, homes were offered at below market rates, just to escape; a "lower", that is, less economically and socially strata of blacks, moved into communities that they might not otherwise have afforded, and many brought the social issues with them from the projects and lower class communities [[at that time, it would have been post-Black Bottom).

I also wonder if the impact of drugs [[heroin) began during that time, during those escalating years of the Vietnam War, especially.

I keep hearing that crime was a significant cause of white flight. But I never read here accounts of what crime was an issue in the early years of the flight, just after WWII [[I also read how "schools" were a cause of flight as well, but in the post war years when the flight started, Detroit still had an exemplary school system. So I'm curious).

At any rate, I do believe that crime was a factor during the early 60's, as you describe.

Would you [[or someone) talk about this more? As always, I think it is possible to have a decent discussion about these factors in our history.

Marsha, there are multiple reasons for the Detroit exodus. Some are so plain and simple, "white" people just wanted 40 acres and a mule, [[elbow room), another was the crime factor, and of course, another was real estate fear mongering. From what I've experienced, the last was insignificant compare to the first two. One day we'll sit down over a cup of Darjeeling with Buckwheat honey, and compare notes. I'd love to hear more about your Hasting Street experiences and impressions. Who knows, maybe we'll solve the world's racial problems?

[marshamusic]

Marsha, there are multiple reasons for the Detroit exodus. Some are so plain and simple, "white" people just wanted 40 acres and a mule, [[elbow room), another was the crime factor, and of course, another was real estate fear mongering. From what I've experienced, the last was insignificant compare to the first two. One day we'll sit down over a cup of Darjeeling with Buckwheat honey, and compare notes. I'd love to hear more about your Hasting Street experiences and impressions. Who knows, maybe we'll solve the world's racial problems?

Bless your heart, Honky Tonk. You are a gentleman and a scholar.

I write [[and speak) about this period in Detroit, and I want to articulate these varied reasons. Much of my work is about expressing a more accurate, nuanced narrative about the city rather than simplistic ones that I hear from many sides.

There is a constant refrain of "crime was the cause of white flight", and I know that this is true in the latter years of flight [[and Black flight, too), though I am not so sure that it was the cause in the early years of white flight.

There is also the mantra that "racism was the cause of white flight" and I know that this alone is not true. But where it is true, I think we should say so.

I know that the desire for the amenities of the new, suburban housing, compared to the old, packed neighborhoods of Detroit [[yes, it sounds odd now, but that was the reality, back in those days) was also a cause of the "sprawl".

There should be much more emphasis on the move of jobs further and further out to the suburbs, for tax incentives and often to develop new all-on-one-floor production facilities, rather than the multi-storied, old buildings in the city.

If I can say this - without it appearing as if I am blaming whites for the problem - I believe that some of the crime was a by-product of white flight; that is, as homes were "dumped" on the market as whites rushed to get out [[for whatever reason, but sometimes due to active block-busting), Blacks began to move in.

Some, especially the young, reacted to antagonism that they met upon their arrival to the new neighborhoods, and some families, of course, brought the social problems [[juvenile delinquency, etc.) that they were trying to escape, with them. Sometimes, of course, it was a combination of both. The introduction of drugs into the community as a whole, was an overriding cause, I believe.


Honkey Tonk, tea would be great, or I'll see you at one of the events around here. Better yet, maybe a few of us DetroitYes folks could meet up on a Sunday afternoon and hear the Blues on St. Aubin.

And btw [[not so shameless plug), I'm doing another Marsha Music, Live From Hastings Street! presentation at the Downtown Synagogue [[on Griswold and Clifford) on Tuesday, August 20 from 8 -10pm. I'm honored that I've been asked to come and talk about some of these things.

[drpoundsign]

AS far as good and bad books about the D I heard that "Devil's Night" was Very Prejudicial and Not helpful at all. Ironic that the racist greedhead real estate agents who would bar their OWN door-or more likely make their neighbors bar Theirs against Minorities-catalyzed the Transition. Famous Line from the time...Boy asks his Dad "how long before they reach Gross Pointe?" During the Height of the Riots.

"'bout Thirty Years, Son." Accurate

Yes, Islandview, Kettering and Houston Whittier I would think underwent racial transition around the time Black Bottom and Hastings were destroyed. There Was some looting and a little burning on the Avenue of Fashion Section of Livernois near University of Detroit.

[IrishSpartan]

AS far as good and bad books about the D I heard that "Devil's Night" was Very Prejudicial and Not helpful at all. Ironic that the racist greedhead real estate agents who would bar their OWN door-or more likely make their neighbors bar Theirs against Minorities-catalyzed the Transition. Famous Line from the time...Boy asks his Dad "how long before they reach Gross Pointe?" During the Height of the Riots.

"'bout Thirty Years, Son." Accurate

Yes, Islandview, Kettering and Houston Whittier I would think underwent racial transition around the time Black Bottom and Hastings were destroyed. There Was some looting and a little burning on the Avenue of Fashion Section of Livernois near University of Detroit.

I'm not sure what area you are referring to as Houston Whittier. If you mean any of the neighborhoods along the street Houston Whittier racial transition didn't begin to occur until the mid-1970's or late-1970's. The neighborhoods north of Houston Whittier were still over 80% White in the early 1980's. Lots of Germans and Italians still there, but about to get out as the decade continued.

[IrishSpartan]

IMO, many whites were just plain run out of the city by fear

Maybe some were run out by unjustified fear, but in my neighborhood the fear was justified. I watched the scenario unfold daily. Crime started escalating around 1963 and by 1967 it was pretty well underway. Initially, some left, most chose to hold their ground. Eventually the majority threw up their hands, quit, and moved out with the others. The same thing happened with the educated, affluent, black middle-class. They too became tired of being victims. That was the real downfall of Detroit because the tax base had left.

Were you in a neighborhood between Livernois & Wyoming during this time period?

[sumas]

Bless your heart, Honky Tonk. You are a gentleman and a scholar.

I write [[and speak) about this period in Detroit, and I want to articulate these varied reasons. Much of my work is about expressing a more accurate, nuanced narrative about the city rather than simplistic ones that I hear from many sides.

There is a constant refrain of "crime was the cause of white flight", and I know that this is true in the latter years of flight [[and Black flight, too), though I am not so sure that it was the cause in the early years of white flight.

There is also the mantra that "racism was the cause of white flight" and I know that this alone is not true. But where it is true, I think we should say so.

I know that the desire for the amenities of the new, suburban housing, compared to the old, packed neighborhoods of Detroit [[yes, it sounds odd now, but that was the reality, back in those days) was also a cause of the "sprawl".

There should be much more emphasis on the move of jobs further and further out to the suburbs, for tax incentives and often to develop new all-on-one-floor production facilities, rather than the multi-storied, old buildings in the city.

If I can say this - without it appearing as if I am blaming whites for the problem - I believe that some of the crime was a by-product of white flight; that is, as homes were "dumped" on the market as whites rushed to get out [[for whatever reason, but sometimes due to active block-busting), Blacks began to move in.

Some, especially the young, reacted to antagonism that they met upon their arrival to the new neighborhoods, and some families, of course, brought the social problems [[juvenile delinquency, etc.) that they were trying to escape, with them. Sometimes, of course, it was a combination of both. The introduction of drugs into the community as a whole, was an overriding cause, I believe.


Honkey Tonk, tea would be great, or I'll see you at one of the events around here. Better yet, maybe a few of us DetroitYes folks could meet up on a Sunday afternoon and hear the Blues on St. Aubin.

And btw [[not so shameless plug), I'm doing another Marsha Music, Live From Hastings Street! presentation at the Downtown Synagogue [[on Griswold and Clifford) on Tuesday, August 20 from 8 -10pm. I'm honored that I've been asked to come and talk about some of these things.

Well written and appreciate the time spent to discuss the transitions in Detroit.

[Smirnoff]

Forced my parents to get the hell out of dodge.....house was paid.

Wonder who owns the property now, many vacant homes & now empty lots on our old block.

[piczka]

Put this post to an end. We all regret our past mistakes. I am sure people regret the second world war , Korea and Viet Nam not that these can ever be compared to the Detroit race riots. It was the thing to do at the time according to some. History will tell whether it bears any fruit. Let us move on with the most recent soup du jour, saving our beautiful city.