Heard the Hudson Site Plan Today.

[wolverine]

Of those urban malls, only Water Tower Place is super successful. North Bridge does ok, but the other three struggle. Horton Plaza, Canal Place and 900 Michigan all have serious problems with vacancies. And even Water Tower lost Lord & Taylor, and had problems filling their upper floors.

For example, Horton Plaza is currently being redeveloped, with failed department stores being demolished in favor of parks.

In terms of non-struggling urban malls, we're talking a very, very short list in the U.S. But almost every U.S. city has tried. Heck, here in MI, we built urban malls in Battle Creek, Flint, Grand Rapids, Muskegan, and Detroit, All failed, and only RenCen [[to some extent) exists.

I live at 900 N Michigan and its performing fine. Mark Shale stores folded everyhere and Williams and Sonoma got in a squabble and left because of Sur La Table moving in. Northbridge is out of space and had to kick out tenants to get better ones. They also are increasing the size of the mall by purchasing the neighboring office building and hollowing out floors. Water Tower went through the same process by denying lease renewals to get better tenants and have no vacancy

Mall space demand on Mich ave exceeds supply because it caters to international and out of state tourists. State street is another matter catering to city and regional residents. Of course Block 37 is not performing at all and is perhaps the worst development disaster in Chicago history

I know most of your info is based on observation and not fact, but at least come to the table prepared if you are going to act like you know something.

[rb336]

Mall space demand on Mich ave exceeds supply because it caters to international and out of state tourists. State street is another matter catering to city and regional residents. Of course Block 37 is not performing at all and is perhaps the worst development disaster in Chicago history

So much for a high sales tax killing retail. Isn't pop taxed something like 12%?

[Bham1982]

Mall space demand on Mich ave exceeds supply because it caters to international and out of state tourists.

LOL. Yes, the demand is so high that Chicago Place shuttered, and the upper levels of the existing malls all have vacancies. It must be all those "international tourists" that strangely look like heffers from Iowa and Indiana in-town to see American Girl Place. The reality is that vertical retail doesn't work, and Chicago, while it gets tons of Midwest tourists, gets few from outside the U.S. Rents are high on the street, and low in the upper levels of vertical malls, both in Chicago and everywhere.

[Bham1982]

So much for a high sales tax killing retail. Isn't pop taxed something like 12%?

It's 9.25, which is not that big of a deal. The issue isn't success of downtown retail; Michigan Ave. is the most successful retail for many hundreds of miles, the issue is upper level mall retail, which has never worked in the U.S. GGP, owners of Water Tower Place, easily the most successful vertical retail on Michigan Ave., has always had problems leasing the top floors.

[rb336]

Lighthouse Place in Michigan City is pretty successful

[Eber Brock Ward]

Dead on, Bham.

[DetroitPlanner]

Dead on, Bham.

I agree. The reasons why Northbridge bucks the trend is that it is really no so much a vertical mall [[at 3-4 floors) as it is a walkway/bridge to get to from Michigan Avenue to Nordstom's. The upper levels take advantage of Nordstrom being such an excellent draw and the folks who leave Nordstroms and want to see something different on their walk back to Michigan.

[Detroit68]

My family and I visited Indianapolis last week. Their downtown mall - Circle Centre - clearly attempts to integrate with the rest of the city. This is achieved only because I found downtown Indy to be one of the more “suburban” feeling downtowns that I have visited. The heavy concentration of national food chains and retail stores feels somewhat contrived. While I think most Detroiters would be happy with more retail regardless, I applaud any efforts to bring a shopping experience that can’t easily be replicated at a mall in the suburbs.


That said, there is strong evidence that shows downtown malls are becoming less viable:

• Nordstrom pulled out of Circle Centre Mall in downtown Indy 2 years ago leaving 210,000 sq feet space that is still vacant.
• Macy’s is closing downtown St. Paul, MN store that opened in 1963 [[362,000 sq. ft.)
• Macy’s is closing downtown Houston store that opened in 1947 [[791,000 sq. ft.)
• Macy’s is closing downtown St. Louis store that opened in 1924 [[189,000 sq. ft.)

[ElbertHanks]

I agree. The reasons why Northbridge bucks the trend is that it is really no so much a vertical mall [[at 3-4 floors) as it is a walkway/bridge to get to from Michigan Avenue to Nordstom's. The upper levels take advantage of Nordstrom being such an excellent draw and the folks who leave Nordstroms and want to see something different on their walk back to Michigan.

Northbridge obviously had the advantage of being built after 900 North and Water Tower Place which IMO is why it is decidedly not vertical. When I lived in Chicago in the Mid 90's new retail development on Michigan Avenue was focused on new Street level stand alone retail. Nike Town, Fao Schwartz were just a couple of stores which opened flagship stores in newly rebuilt spaces on Michigan during that time period. I think Northbridge was conceived essentially when easily buildable street level space ran out.

My recollection is that the upper levels in 900 North were not successful back then. Water Tower fared somewhat better. I seem to recall some unique or new to the area tenants on the upper levels. Which is probably what you need to do to get people beyond the first couple of levels. The novelty of riding escalators up eight or so flights tends to wear off.

[rb336]

I would LOVE to see Century 21 open a store here. That is the place actual New Yorkers go for clothes if they aren't UES snobs

[dtowncitylover]

I would LOVE to see Century 21 open a store here. That is the place actual New Yorkers go for clothes if they aren't UES snobs

That's very true. I was there in late last month and that was probably the most popular shopping bag I saw. I had no idea what it was until I asked someone I was with who lives there.

I think an H&M could do well. The nearest and only one with a men's section is at Great Lakes and downtown would be closer.

[DetroitPlanner]

I would LOVE to see Century 21 open a store here. That is the place actual New Yorkers go for clothes if they aren't UES snobs

It is the modern equivelent of E J Korvettes. Here is a link for you kiddos who never heard of the store: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._J._Korvette
http://pleasantfamilyshopping.blogsp...abel/Korvettes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century...artment_store)

[marshamusic]

I would LOVE to see Century 21 open a store here. That is the place actual New Yorkers go for clothes if they aren't UES snobs

Century 21 sells real estate. You mean Forever 21?

[DetroitPlanner]

Century 21 sells real estate. You mean Forever 21?

Century 21 is also a department store in the NYC area.

[wolverine]

LOL. Yes, the demand is so high that Chicago Place shuttered, and the upper levels of the existing malls all have vacancies. It must be all those "international tourists" that strangely look like heffers from Iowa and Indiana in-town to see American Girl Place. The reality is that vertical retail doesn't work, and Chicago, while it gets tons of Midwest tourists, gets few from outside the U.S. Rents are high on the street, and low in the upper levels of vertical malls, both in Chicago and everywhere.

I think 48 million tourists can keep a mall operational. It's certainly not the best urban solution, but they have been a necessary part of Michigan Ave to maximize retail space. I know you hate Chicago and I don't always disagee with your comments. But your made up statement about 900, hit home, literally, and I had to clarify that the building has no problems with vacancy and leasing whatsoever

[DetroitPlanner]

I think 48 million tourists can keep a mall operational. It's certainly not the best urban solution, but they have been a necessary part of Michigan Ave to maximize retail space. I know you hate Chicago and I don't always disagee with your comments. But your made up statement about 900, hit home, literally, and I had to clarify that the building has no problems with vacancy and leasing whatsoever

However, I do believe that the space dedicated to the higher levels of retail could be better utilized if it was used for additional space for the hotel or apartment amenities. Lets face it, in order to fill those spaces up there they have to give away the store. They are not getting the creme-de-la-creme. Maybe they could have put in a food court that would draw people up there and past the other stores? Yeah there is a Potbelly's big whoop. Even the Ren Cen has one.

[wolverine]

Duplicate post

[wolverine]

They have good tenants on the top floors and the condos, offices, and mall are totally isolated apart in terms of elevator and lobby acess. You couldn't put apartments or hotel in. The costs to convert those floors would be astronomical.