Why was the Hudson's store demolished? Who made money?

48009 · July-02-13, 07:01 PM

Other buildings sit vacant just as long. Were there specific people behind tearing down such a massive building? I hear most Detroit tear downs that have occurred the past 20 or so years have had a large degree of seediness and corruption pushing them through.

**48202** · July-02-13, 11:03 PM

Recent posting covering Hudson's demolition politics and emotions.

www.michigannow.org/2012/10/01/sorrow-of-hudsons

**DetroitPlanner** · July-02-13, 11:54 PM

No one made money. Well maybe Homrich made a profit, but it was not done to make money. It was done because Compuware was looking at a major investment that would transform Kern Block and Kennedy Square into Campus Martius. The building was getting old and decrepit. It was the site of several fires set by urban explorers. The fire department and police were the ones who wanted it gone as it had become a near towering inferno on several occasions. I knew the Capt of the downtown firehouse at the time he was thrilled to see it come down as it meant less risk to his men.

**Novine** · July-03-13, 05:54 AM

Another site still sitting vacant awaiting redevelopment. Perhaps Compuware wouldn't have come without Hudson's coming down but you would think that Dennis Archer would express some concern with the fact that the site still hasn't been redeveloped.

**oladub** · July-03-13, 07:14 AM

"Though customers flocked to the suburban locations, the downtown store still accounted for half of Hudson's business in 1961 but demographic changes continued to erode sales.^[4] Store officials expressed an interest in closing the store as early as 1971 citing $9,000,000 in pilferage but remained citing the potential backlash from city officials and customers^{[7]"

-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudson's}

48009 · July-03-13, 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

No one made money. Well maybe Homrich made a profit, but it was not done to make money. It was done because Compuware was looking at a major investment that would transform Kern Block and Kennedy Square into Campus Martius. The building was getting old and decrepit. It was the site of several fires set by urban explorers. The fire department and police were the ones who wanted it gone as it had become a near towering inferno on several occasions. I knew the Capt of the downtown firehouse at the time he was thrilled to see it come down as it meant less risk to his men.

Who paid for the demolition?

48009 · July-03-13, 08:50 AM

So Hudson's was not a "demolition by neglect" thing where property owners let it get set on fire and become a nuisance and then a politician comes in and pushes through a demo...state and federal grant dollars are used because the situation is so urgent...contract to demo goes to a connected friend...property is free and clear...

**EastsideAl** · July-03-13, 08:52 AM

They wanted to move Detroit forward, and nothing says "progress" like another nice juicy vacant lot - or so our local "economic development" [[hah) officials seem to feel. Hudson's was one of their greatest triumphs over the scourge of historic buildings.

**56packman** · July-03-13, 09:01 AM

There was much interest from city hall to see Hudson's come down, there was a court ordered stay of demolition and backhoes were sent to pull down the canopies and in effect "begin demolition" against the court-ordered stay.
This was the same time peroid that the un-doing of the Packard Plant began, out of the same office.
None of the re-use ideas that had been floated ever took off, or had serious money behind them, and it was extremely unlikely that the kind of investment being made downtown today would have been made avialbe for that building.

**iheartthed** · July-03-13, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

No one made money. Well maybe Homrich made a profit, but it was not done to make money. It was done because Compuware was looking at a major investment that would transform Kern Block and Kennedy Square into Campus Martius. The building was getting old and decrepit. It was the site of several fires set by urban explorers. The fire department and police were the ones who wanted it gone as it had become a near towering inferno on several occasions. I knew the Capt of the downtown firehouse at the time he was thrilled to see it come down as it meant less risk to his men.

I always found it interesting that several of the largest demolition contractors in the country are located in Metro Detroit.

**Honky Tonk** · July-03-13, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I always found it interesting that several of the largest demolition contractors in the country are located in Metro Detroit.

They're probably branch offices. One of the prerequisites for doing business with the COD is you have to actually be located in the COD. A lot of vendors setup "offices" to meet the requirement.

**Wesley Mouch** · July-03-13, 09:49 AM

Folks? Doesn't anyone here want to tell the stories of the dozens of failed attempts to reuse the building. BCBS. And what was that federal department CAYoung almost had?

The building's condition of course deteriorated, but it was perfectly restorable. Except for the fact that it was 2 million square feet. So suppose the restoration was $150 a foot -- pretty cheap today. It would be a $300,000 restoration. It was like the Queen Mary of buildings.

The failure of those really be redevelopments seemed to me to doom the building. It was a monsterous reminder that Detroit isn't getting investment event when CAY goes to Washington to see President Pruneface.

That was why it was demolished. Because it was the symbol of Detroit's dysfunction. Because CAY once told Hudsons that they wouldn't get a tax reduction, so go ahead and leave he'dd find a 'black' entrepreneur that would run the store. [[Is this true? Or a fable? Please someone, tell the real story of Hudsons.)

**Zaiko** · July-03-13, 10:51 AM

Listen to the audio while you read. It's written for radio.

http://www.michigannow.org/2012/10/0...ow-of-hudsons/

**DetroitPlanner** · July-03-13, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by 48009

So Hudson's was not a "demolition by neglect" thing where property owners let it get set on fire and become a nuisance and then a politician comes in and pushes through a demo...state and federal grant dollars are used because the situation is so urgent...contract to demo goes to a connected friend...property is free and clear...

At the time there were about a dozen groups who claimed they were the owners and none of them had title to it. In those cases it becomes a liability to the City.

**marshamusic** · July-04-13, 06:43 AM

Originally Posted by Zaiko

Listen to the audio while you read. It's written for radio.

http://www.michigannow.org/2012/10/0...ow-of-hudsons/

My goodness; this was the most powerful essay that I've ever read on Hudson's.

It captures the the magnificence of the place, the pettiness of the segregation there - which I experienced - and its resonance both in its prior existence, and as an empty space.

It helped me to understand even more, the importance of what goes there, why the discussions here on DY were so serious about about the ideas for a new building there.

Thank you for posting it, Zaiko.

**Scottathew** · July-04-13, 06:54 AM

I'm sad that it's gone, but I'm excited to see something new going there, hopefully with lots of residential space. We've got the jobs in the CBD, now it's time to bring people.

marshamusic, you said you experienced segregation there. Can you please tell me what you experienced? I was in my mother's womb when the store closed in 1983. My parents told me very little of segregation other than that it was wrong and it happened.

**401don** · July-04-13, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Folks? Doesn't anyone here want to tell the stories of the dozens of failed attempts to reuse the building. BCBS. And what was that federal department CAYoung almost had?

The building's condition of course deteriorated, but it was perfectly restorable. Except for the fact that it was 2 million square feet. So suppose the restoration was $150 a foot -- pretty cheap today. It would be a $300,000 restoration. It was like the Queen Mary of buildings.

The failure of those really be redevelopments seemed to me to doom the building. It was a monsterous reminder that Detroit isn't getting investment event when CAY goes to Washington to see President Pruneface.

That was why it was demolished. Because it was the symbol of Detroit's dysfunction. Because CAY once told Hudsons that they wouldn't get a tax reduction, so go ahead and leave he'dd find a 'black' entrepreneur that would run the store. [[Is this true? Or a fable? Please someone, tell the real story of Hudsons.)

Please explain how 150 x 2 million = 300,000?

**Baselinepunk** · July-04-13, 10:43 AM

"No one made money."

I don't believe it. No one that I know, works for free. Somebody got paid, blowing something up like the Hudson's building takes a lot of specialty skills.

We all know in this town that the demolition business in this town has been BOOMING [[lol) for many, many years. Probably the only business in this area that hasn't been super affected by the downturn in the economy.

**stromberg2** · July-04-13, 01:49 PM

Homrich made his bones on this demo. He has a huge mansion on Lake Erie in Monroe.

**marshamusic** · July-04-13, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by 48307

I'm sad that it's gone, but I'm excited to see something new going there, hopefully with lots of residential space. We've got the jobs in the CBD, now it's time to bring people.

marshamusic, you said you experienced segregation there. Can you please tell me what you experienced? I was in my mother's womb when the store closed in 1983. My parents told me very little of segregation other than that it was wrong and it happened.

Well 48307, your parents telling you that it happened, and that it was wrong, was a good thing, too.

Here's something that I posted a couple of months ago here:

"[Blacks] of a certain age have long, clear memories of varying degrees of such defacto [segregation] situations, barring us from a nice, normal shopping experience in Detroit stores.

Mothers who traced one's foot on a piece of paper and discreetly slipped it in her purse, in case the sales person refused to allow us to try on shoes, [which, of course, would happen].

The constant reminder to be careful not to pick up a hat and try it on, at the downtown Hudsons or other stores, lest one face a sales person's withering look and their order to remove a chapeau, sharply whispered [[in order to not disturb the ambiance of the floor) but humiliating, nevertheless.

The beautiful woman who ran the elevators [[remember the beautiful brass water fountains outside the elevator doors?) who had to be a light color to have such a job, and who were not allowed to be sales women no matter their color or beauty, or tasteful appearance.

It was around 1960 before the first black was allowed to even bus tables outside of the kitchens at downtown Hudson's - her name was Diane Ross, aka Diana.

[Blacks could only work in the cleaning department, and in the kitchen. In fact the Motown Stars, with money to burn, were important elements in breaking this segregation in retail Detroit - it was hard to refuse them service and or to mistreat them, what with their high profiles around town and access to publicity. I remember my girlfriends ooh'd and ahh'd at the gossip that the Supremes had come into the first floor Hudsons and actually tried on hats! and there was nothing that management could do about it].

Yes, DetroitPlanner, situations like this in my lifetime, not just in history books of a time and place far, far away......"

I also remember our clear understanding, in the early sixties, that we must never try to eat in the famed Hudsons restaurant [[name escapes me) that is viewed with fond nostalgia by white Detroiters - and rightfully so, as it was a lovely place - yet for us to attempt to do so was to risk being ignored and simply not let in or served, before the mid-sixties.

It was not until then, that we began to shop at Hudson's like others; but by then we had begun to go to Northland - where we had no such memories, as we did at the Downtown store.

Segregation was not "legal", or "de jure" in the North, as it was in the South, but we had much "de facto" separation - i.e., segregation in fact - that permeated all the major downtown stores [[and Saks too, on the Boulevard, but that's a whole 'nother story that I've also told here).

What I do remember fondly, without equivocation, are my visits to the shops "behind" Hudsons - on Library Street, where there were a couple of wonderful old shops that we frequented - in particular, button stores and fabric shops, where we were treated like we were welcome customers [[a rare event) by the old Jewish curmudgeons there who sold us some of the finest materials and notions you could buy.

They never tried to make us feel "less than" and in fact, they virtually bowed when my gorgeous mother and aunts would come through the door, to get fabrics for their custom dresses for nights on the town at the Rooster Tail, the Top Hat and the Twenty Grand.

Perhaps this helps to explain why our memories of many aspects of old Detroit life are bittersweet - but they are a part of Detroit's story, nevertheless.

**Wesley Mouch** · July-04-13, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by 401don

Please explain how 150 x 2 million = 300,000?

Easy. 150 x $2,000,000 + 3 missing zeros = $300,000,000. The massive size of this building was its downfall. Today it might be seen as an opportunity. Then, it was seen as too big for anyone to take on. That's why mothballing historic properties is a good idea. What is doable changes.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · July-04-13, 05:02 PM

I was terribly sad when Hudson's was demolished. My mom worked downtown growing up, and I spent many a day off from school in there. I also think the building was gorgeous and very distinctly Detroit.

The above having been said, I truly think that what development there has been downtown would not have occurred had it still been standing. It was a giant monument to failure and despair. Michigan Central is different because it is not in the middle of downtown. If Hudson's wasn't so centrally located, it could have been mothballed to no ill effect. I suspect had it remained standing, even Dan Gilbert would be investing elsewhere.

Every historic structure needs to assessed on several criteria, remembering that there needs to a plausible and affordable potential use for a building. Decaying and rotting gems won't be revived on nostalgia. The Hudson's future only existed in the past. I will treasure my memories and sepia toned pictures of the JL Hudson department store, but be thankful for a downtown coming into it's own again.

**Scottathew** · July-04-13, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by marshamusic

Well 48307, your parents telling you that it happened, and that it was wrong, was a good thing, too.

...

Thanks for sharing that. I've read about segregation in the history books, but to me it's such a bizarre thing that's it crazy to think that it wasn't very long ago that this happened.

I'm dealing with a racist neighbor right now. I currently live in Warren but I'm moving to Rochester Hills in a couple weeks. We're having prospective tenants going through our Warren house and my neighbor has been very verbal about not wanting a black neighbor.

My neighbor is in her mid 50's and I'm 30. It's just crazy, I really like her and I'm bummed out that she's being a racist tool. I'm of course being color-blind in my search for a tenant as required by my character and the laws of our land.

**Huggybear** · July-04-13, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Today it might be seen as an opportunity. Then, it was seen as too big for anyone to take on. That's why mothballing historic properties is a good idea. What is doable changes.

Still would not be an opportunity today - or for at least another decade.

Today, it would have been vacant for 31 years, and if you have read about the associated costs, which Schostak estimated would have been 2-3 million per year for a building that size - it would have been a $32 million suck between 1997 and the present. That would be a huge and unending spend. Hudson's closed it because it made no money and sold it because keeping it was too expensive.

Even today, there is nothing that would suggest it would even remotely be close to a possibility. Even with Gilbert's acquisition spree, real estate prices have been too low to support a redevelopment that size [[even taking into account all the credits that are available).

I liked JLH as much as anyone else who had actually been in it, but had it not gone, there would be no Compuware and no Campus Martius park - without which there would be no Gilbert. Axing the building was a reasonable step at the time, and it turned out to be reasonable in terms of subsequent history.

HB

**DetroitPlanner** · July-04-13, 08:58 PM

This is not the first time this has been discussed on this site:
http://www.detroityes.com/mb/archive...hp/t-6112.html

No one here has suggested what would be a good use for the structure, only that it should have been mothballed. I think many of the people who are suggesting this are too young to have been in this store.

First if all, this store was huge. It had something like 2 million square feet of retail space. Easily one of the biggest department stores of all time. To put this in persepective, it was the size of ten Super Walmarts or Meijers! That is a lot of floor space for any market to absorb. At the time it was demolished there was even more vacancy downtown than there is now. A lot more of it. There simply was not enough of a market to absorb that much space.

Hudson's was going to build a much smaller store as part of the Cadillac Center project then tear down the old store in order to use it for smaller stores. Cadillac Center ended up being a giant bust as did every other proposal to renovate the old building. It was going to be too hard to make the dollars work. http://www.nytimes.com/1982/07/15/us...n-detroit.html

Lets say there was a market to absorb the space. Who would go in there? It would sure not be another department store. The definition of department store had changed by the mid 1990's. By the mid 1990's stores like Hudsons had lost much of their market to low end chains and big box stores. Hudsons and stores like it were dropping all 'budget stores', toy departments, appliance departments, notions, scaling back on furniture, only selling the higher end of housewares. By that time agglomeration had also started among department stores. Dayton Hudson owned Marshall Field, the May Company owned a whole host of smaller stores such as Lord and Taylor. Independent regional department stores were doomed and eventually only Macy's was left with a handful of smaller and much weaker competitors. It would never be a department store again. It did not have the bones to be chopped into several smaller stores either, it was just too big and tall for that.

So maybe you could have put some retail on the first floor, and maybe something else above it. Offices would not work as Downtown had a glut of office space at the time. The Ren Cen and One Detroit emptied out all of the other buildings. Not enough customers for it. How about apartments? Considering the size of the floors, the majority of the apartments would be 60+ feet long, and about 10' wide. Only a couple of windows would be available for most of those apartments both at the far end. The apartments would be dark dreary places with little sunlight. These would be hard to market when there were much better options in older building where the rent charged would be significantly less than what you would need to charge for these white elephant apartments.

Lets focus back on the first floor. Who would move into high rent newly renovated retail spaces when there was so much empty retail spaces that commanded half the rent of what a new renovated space would have to charge? What would that do to the little ornementation that the building had on its interior to cut it up? You would be destroying the any of the physical part of the building in order to preserve it. What good is that? In the end you would have spent $100 + million in saving a building that you still could not fill.