look out Detroit Water Dept...

**Vic01** · June-30-13, 11:43 PM

DETROIT [[AP) – A groundbreaking has been held for a $274-million pipeline that eventually will supply Lake Huron water to Flint and Genesee County.
It may take at least two years for the pipeline project to be completed. The pipeline will be part of a regional system and is expected to provide untreated water to more than 2,400 square miles.
Communities will be connected as the pipeline is completed in their areas.
Genesee County pays Detroit about $15-million each year for water.

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2013/06/...-flint-others/

**DetroitPlanner** · June-30-13, 11:57 PM

This was announced months ago. Good luck Flint. The silver lining in this for Detroit is that it will greatly reduce peak demand.

It probably costs more than $15 million a year to deliver the water and maintain the system. It should have no negative impact on our local budgets, but Flint and its partners are going to need one huge loan!

**Honky Tonk** · July-01-13, 06:38 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

This was announced months ago. Good luck Flint. The silver lining in this for Detroit is that it will greatly reduce peak demand.

It probably costs more than $15 million a year to deliver the water and maintain the system. It should have no negative impact on our local budgets, but Flint and its partners are going to need one huge loan!

Let's see, Genesee County pays Detroit about $15-million each year for water. Now they're going to get their water elsewhere. You're right, no impact.

**michimoby** · July-01-13, 07:05 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

This was announced months ago. Good luck Flint. The silver lining in this for Detroit is that it will greatly reduce peak demand.

It probably costs more than $15 million a year to deliver the water and maintain the system. It should have no negative impact on our local budgets, but Flint and its partners are going to need one huge loan!

Was the system built for 1.8 million residents? Because if that's the case, "peak demand" is a bit of a misnomer.

**DetroitPlanner** · July-01-13, 08:02 AM

What you're not thinking about is the cost to Detroit of maintaining those pipes, pressurizing the system to get the water up there, and making sure the water stays clean. Its not cheap to run a water system.

For DWSD $15 million is not a lot of money. This year's combined budget is a little under a billion. http://www.dwsd.org/downloads_n/abou...t_01092013.pdf

**Honky Tonk** · July-01-13, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

What you're not thinking about is the cost to Detroit of maintaining those pipes, pressurizing the system to get the water up there, and making sure the water stays clean. Its not cheap to run a water system.

For DWSD $15 million is not a lot of money. This year's combined budget is a little under a billion. http://www.dwsd.org/downloads_n/abou...t_01092013.pdf

No offense man, but that seems to be the Detroit mantra. Is this "the new accounting?" Nothing seems to be a lot of money, except when you start adding all those little "nothings" up.

**1953** · July-01-13, 08:50 AM

The questions to ask are a) what is the profit on that water sold to Genessee and b) what is the potential for growth in the Genesse market?

If we are losing money on that segment, or if the market is likely to shrink, then this isn't a big deal. If, on the other hand, we were making some money on it, or there is growth potential, then we should sabotage their efforts at every turn.

1953

**Novine** · July-01-13, 08:58 AM

Flint and its suburbs are going to wish they never took this step. It's an area of stagnant growth taking on a massive amount of duplicate infrastructure that's going to cost a lot now and even more down the road.

**mwilbert** · July-01-13, 09:14 AM

On its face, it seems like a bad idea for Genesee county, but it is possible they did a proper accounting and found it was a net positive. However, I have to agree with the people who say it is pretty irrelevant to Detroit--it just isn't a big enough portion of the DWSD revenue, and DWSD revenue doesn't flow to the city in any useful way anyway.

It is also irrelevant because I'm reasonably sure the EM is going to remove the water system from the city books one way or another in any case.

**EastsideAl** · July-01-13, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by michimoby

Was the system built for 1.8 million residents? Because if that's the case, "peak demand" is a bit of a misnomer.

Detroit Water and Sewerage supplies water to most of SE Michigan. Its customer base has actually grown over the past several years.

Hard to understand what Genesee Co. has in mind here. DWSD has been supplying them water at right around cost [[if not less than cost) for a very long time. Now they're spending at least $274 mil. for a new system to replace already built infrastructure in an area with no population growth in the foreseeable future? Sure doesn't seem to make a lot of sense, except perhaps in a short-term political way. But I predict a lot of people aren't going to be happy when they get their bills for replacing that "too expensive" Detroit water with the costs of building, operating, and maintaining their own system.

**DetroitPlanner** · July-01-13, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by Novine

Flint and its suburbs are going to wish they never took this step. It's an area of stagnant growth taking on a massive amount of duplicate infrastructure that's going to cost a lot now and even more down the road.

I can agree with this. It is going to be a huge and divisive headache. Up until now they could have pointed to Detroit and blame 'it'. Now there is no one to blame but themselves when it comes to explaining cost increases or maintaining the system.

For as much as people complain about the cost of water around here, it is still less than a penny a gallon for the large majority of us in the system. Less than a penny and that includes the cost of making the water safe for drinking, treating the sewage, delivering it to your home, and the maintenance of the infrastructure. Compare that to the cost of gas which is anywhere from $3.25-4.25, how much would a gallon sized latte cost you at starbucks? Now most of us won't bathe in gasoline or lattes [[though DetroitNerd may have on occasion), but considering how essential it is, that is downright cheap.

**Detroitnerd** · July-01-13, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Now most of us won't bathe in gasoline or lattes [[though DetroitNerd may have on occasion), but considering how essential it is, that is downright cheap.

That's unfair. The closest I've ever come to a gasoline bath was when I fell in the Rouge River...

**Wesley Mouch** · July-01-13, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by 1953

The questions to ask are a) what is the profit on that water sold to Genessee and b) what is the potential for growth in the Genesse market?

If we are losing money on that segment, or if the market is likely to shrink, then this isn't a big deal. If, on the other hand, we were making some money on it, or there is growth potential, then we should sabotage their efforts at every turn.
1953

These are the right questions. I do find it odd that Flint/Genesee chose this point to invest in their own infrastructure -- just as Detroit might get its act together.

For Detroit, its hard to tell what the impact is here without knowing what the profit on this part of their operations. This may be unknowable -- at least for DWSD. That might have been the problem. Say you're sitting in Genesee -- not far from Lake Huron. And you ask Detroit for some information on rates and costs. And you get back garbage.

They may be leaving mostly because DWSD was an indefensible choice that didn't respect them. My guess anyway.

**rb336** · July-01-13, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Let's see, Genesee County pays Detroit about $15-million each year for water. Now they're going to get their water elsewhere. You're right, no impact.

at $15 million/year, it is probably barely a break-even deal for DWD. the question I have is -- untreated water????

**EastsideAl** · July-01-13, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by rb336

at $15 million/year, it is probably barely a break-even deal for DWD. the question I have is -- untreated water????

I guess they feel that the water of Lake Huron [[unlike the water of the Detroit River further downstream) is so pure, clean, and fresh that it won't require treatment - similar to the water in NYC's system that comes down from the Catskills or San Francisco's water from Yosemite.

**luckycar** · July-01-13, 12:29 PM

Untreated or raw water,is the term for water that hasn't been thru the treatment process.Floride and disenfecting the water for shippment thru the system comes next,unless it needs a filtering in between.Lake Huron water is damm good,just drank some.

**antongast** · July-01-13, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by EastsideAl

I guess they feel that the water of Lake Huron [[unlike the water of the Detroit River further downstream) is so pure, clean, and fresh that it won't require treatment - similar to the water in NYC's system that comes down from the Catskills or San Francisco's water from Yosemite.

I thought DWSD had an intake up in St. Clair County somewhere that served the northern part of the system.

**EastsideAl** · July-01-13, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by antongast

I thought DWSD had an intake up in St. Clair County somewhere that served the northern part of the system.

Yes, in fact I believe that most, if not all, of the DWSD water that goes to the Flint area already comes from Lake Huron. From the ill-fated Pt. Huron intake tunnel and treatment plant [[for those too young to remember, an explosion during the construction of this tunnel in 1971 killed 22 workers).

My comment was meant to indicate one of the [[spurious) concerns that suburban customers often seem to have about "Detroit" water - that it all comes from the Detroit River, and, therefore, must require lots more treatment than water from other sources and is of suspect safety. Despite the fact that the Detroit River is just a fast-flowing part of the Great Lakes system. And that the "treatment" that is done by DWSD, and therefore the safety of their water, is for some reason deficient.

It sounds to me like the Genesee Co. folks sold their new water system in part on on this perception and the idea that their Lake Huron water would be purer than "Detroit" water and not require "treatment"

**DetroitPlanner** · July-01-13, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by EastsideAl

Yes, in fact I believe that most, if not all, of the DWSD water that goes to the Flint area already comes from Lake Huron. From the ill-fated Pt. Huron intake tunnel and treatment plant [[for those too young to remember, an explosion during the construction of this tunnel in 1971 killed 22 workers).

Uggh you brought back some bad memories there. My Dad worked on that tunnel. He lasted one week before he transferred to another department just to get out of there. He ended up at DPW for the rest of his career. The explosion happened about a month after his departure. I don't blame him, it was too far from home and as you can see dangerous work.

**EastsideAl** · July-01-13, 04:20 PM

In reading a little further on this issue, it appears that DWSD tried to keep Flint and Genesee Co., and actually made them a substantial offer. DWSD offered Flint a 45% reduction in supply cost, the right to purcahse a dedicated capacity of 40 mil. gallons/day from Pt. Huron, the right to build a Flint-owned backup system from DWSD supply, and their own seat on DWSD's board.

Flint and Genesee turned down this offer, even though it means that they'll have to renovate and restart Flint's treatment plant [[for the untreated water from the new Lake Huron intake) at significant cost, and that their backup supply will now be from the Flint River.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/137937128/...Water-Proposal

**old guy** · July-01-13, 11:10 PM

Is it possible that this situation is a bit deeper and darker than the picture you're looking at.
Not living in Detroit and knowing all the facts, the situation I'm raising here is pure speculation.
It just seems illogical that a city like Flint would go out on such a financial limb unless there was reason to back the situation. If what the OP is saying is true, that the project would cost 274 mil. and they're paying Detroit 15 mil. a year, it would take them almost two decades to break even. If they need to create a treatment plant and maintain a water system, my guess is that it would take them at least three decades. What would be the point in doing something like that without reasonable cause.

Is it possible that in doing 15 million dollars of business with Detroit for water each year they might be privy to some information the average Detroit citizen isn't.

If it's true what Det. Planner stated, that the city pays 1 billion a year to maintain its water system, and Detroit is facing bankruptcy, is it possible that Orr is considering a deal to sell it off to a multi-national corporation. The companies are working so hard to find a legal way to tap the water of the Great Lakes, being able to purchase a system that's already in place would be like a dream come true for them. Not only offer to take over a system, privatize it, save the city 1 billion a year and possibly offer the city an extra billion to do so would be chump change to them and sound like a dream to the city in its financial crisis.

They've been doing this all over the world as clean drinking water is rapidly becoming a commodity equal, and possibly at some close point in the future worth more than oil. They stalk countries, especially in South America and buy out their public water systems. The outcome is never good and once they gain control, it's theirs.

If what Detroit Planner said is true, and it sounds about right, that 1 penny a gallon you currently pay could easily rise to 10 cents a gallon. As a private company they would have the right to sell the water to anyone for any price they deemed profitable. If it was worth more for them to ship it elsewhere for 11 or 12 cents a gallon, well then, you pay the market price. They are doing this right now in other places and these companies are as large or larger than Halliburton. They simply shut off your tap water if you can't pay the price and divert it to the most profitable place.

Again, this is merely speculation, but why would Flint be doing something like this without some reasoning to back it up? If I were a citizen of Detroit I would be very skeptical of what's going on here. As an American citizen, I'm extremely skeptical about what's being allowed to happen to our public water systems in general. Detroit is however appearing to be somewhat crippled with this bankruptcy going forward and I'll guarantee the vultures are hovering.

Look back to the OP's other thread.Proposed regional water authority could be a $50M boost for Detroit

I believe there was even another thread concerning this issue but I couldn't find it.

Do some research about what these multi-national corporations are doing to buy up municipal water systems and draw your own conclusions. I just think there's more going on here than meets the eye.

**Honky Tonk** · July-02-13, 07:11 AM

Originally Posted by old guy

Is it possible that this situation is a bit deeper and darker than the picture you're looking at.
Not living in Detroit and knowing all the facts, the situation I'm raising here is pure speculation.
It just seems illogical that a city like Flint would go out on such a financial limb unless there was reason to back the situation. If what the OP is saying is true, that the project would cost 274 mil. and they're paying Detroit 15 mil. a year, it would take them almost two decades to break even. If they need to create a treatment plant and maintain a water system, my guess is that it would take them at least three decades. What would be the point in doing something like that without reasonable cause.

Is it possible that in doing 15 million dollars of business with Detroit for water each year they might be privy to some information the average Detroit citizen isn't.

If it's true what Det. Planner stated, that the city pays 1 billion a year to maintain its water system, and Detroit is facing bankruptcy, is it possible that Orr is considering a deal to sell it off to a multi-national corporation. The companies are working so hard to find a legal way to tap the water of the Great Lakes, being able to purchase a system that's already in place would be like a dream come true for them. Not only offer to take over a system, privatize it, save the city 1 billion a year and possibly offer the city an extra billion to do so would be chump change to them and sound like a dream to the city in its financial crisis.

They've been doing this all over the world as clean drinking water is rapidly becoming a commodity equal, and possibly at some close point in the future worth more than oil. They stalk countries, especially in South America and buy out their public water systems. The outcome is never good and once they gain control, it's theirs.

If what Detroit Planner said is true, and it sounds about right, that 1 penny a gallon you currently pay could easily rise to 10 cents a gallon. As a private company they would have the right to sell the water to anyone for any price they deemed profitable. If it was worth more for them to ship it elsewhere for 11 or 12 cents a gallon, well then, you pay the market price. They are doing this right now in other places and these companies are as large or larger than Halliburton. They simply shut off your tap water if you can't pay the price and divert it to the most profitable place.

Again, this is merely speculation, but why would Flint be doing something like this without some reasoning to back it up? If I were a citizen of Detroit I would be very skeptical of what's going on here. As an American citizen, I'm extremely skeptical about what's being allowed to happen to our public water systems in general. Detroit is however appearing to be somewhat crippled with this bankruptcy going forward and I'll guarantee the vultures are hovering.

Look back to the OP's other thread.Proposed regional water authority could be a $50M boost for Detroit

I believe there was even another thread concerning this issue but I couldn't find it.

Do some research about what these multi-national corporations are doing to buy up municipal water systems and draw your own conclusions. I just think there's more going on here than meets the eye.

The fly in the ointment of your scenario is Orr answers to Snyder, and I really don't think the State Govenor, Republican, Democrat, or Satan himself, would allow anyone to gain control of the State's natural resources. However DWSD is horribly mismanaged, and I can see a regional authority or outside company managing it within set guidelines. If you want to save the world's water systems, and land for that matter, end fracking.

**Novine** · July-02-13, 08:26 AM

Or the people calling the shots in Flint want to be kings of their own fiefdom.

**mwilbert** · July-02-13, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by old guy

Is it possible that this situation is a bit deeper and darker than the picture you're looking at.
Not living in Detroit and knowing all the facts, the situation I'm raising here is pure speculation.
It just seems illogical that a city like Flint would go out on such a financial limb unless there was reason to back the situation. If what the OP is saying is true, that the project would cost 274 mil. and they're paying Detroit 15 mil. a year, it would take them almost two decades to break even. If they need to create a treatment plant and maintain a water system, my guess is that it would take them at least three decades. What would be the point in doing something like that without reasonable cause.

Is it possible that in doing 15 million dollars of business with Detroit for water each year they might be privy to some information the average Detroit citizen isn't.

If it's true what Det. Planner stated, that the city pays 1 billion a year to maintain its water system, and Detroit is facing bankruptcy, is it possible that Orr is considering a deal to sell it off to a multi-national corporation. The companies are working so hard to find a legal way to tap the water of the Great Lakes, being able to purchase a system that's already in place would be like a dream come true for them. Not only offer to take over a system, privatize it, save the city 1 billion a year and possibly offer the city an extra billion to do so would be chump change to them and sound like a dream to the city in its financial crisis.

They've been doing this all over the world as clean drinking water is rapidly becoming a commodity equal, and possibly at some close point in the future worth more than oil. They stalk countries, especially in South America and buy out their public water systems. The outcome is never good and once they gain control, it's theirs.

If what Detroit Planner said is true, and it sounds about right, that 1 penny a gallon you currently pay could easily rise to 10 cents a gallon. As a private company they would have the right to sell the water to anyone for any price they deemed profitable. If it was worth more for them to ship it elsewhere for 11 or 12 cents a gallon, well then, you pay the market price. They are doing this right now in other places and these companies are as large or larger than Halliburton. They simply shut off your tap water if you can't pay the price and divert it to the most profitable place.

Again, this is merely speculation, but why would Flint be doing something like this without some reasoning to back it up? If I were a citizen of Detroit I would be very skeptical of what's going on here. As an American citizen, I'm extremely skeptical about what's being allowed to happen to our public water systems in general. Detroit is however appearing to be somewhat crippled with this bankruptcy going forward and I'll guarantee the vultures are hovering.

Look back to the OP's other thread.Proposed regional water authority could be a $50M boost for Detroit

I believe there was even another thread concerning this issue but I couldn't find it.

Do some research about what these multi-national corporations are doing to buy up municipal water systems and draw your own conclusions. I just think there's more going on here than meets the eye.

There is a grain of truth to this post, which is that if the water system is privatized [[which isn't at all clear at this point) it is possible that the price of water will go up in the DWSD service region. It is also possible that it won't--it depends upon what is in whatever agreement is made as part of the purchase. As was stated above, it is wildly unlikely to go up by a factor of 10. However, the general idea is valid.

However, there are severe legal constraints on transferring water outside the Great Lakes watershed, and changing the ownership of the water system doesn't change that, so the idea that privatization would result in massive water sales to other areas is incorrect. The danger to Great Lakes water is climatic and political, not economic.

**Hermod** · July-02-13, 09:06 AM

1. If a water system is privately owned, it functions like an electric company or a gas company with rates set by a public utilities commission.

2. One of the benefits of privatizing DWSD rather than having it be an independent government entity is that a private company could sweep away all of the deadwood, featherbedding, and "friends and family" employees and lower the cost structure.