When's Downtown Detroit Retail going to happen

[DarkestbeforedawnDetroit]

I don't mean to sound ungrateful, really, I very thankful for all that's being done in Detroit but anybody know anything about the retail. Also as a side note what's some of the retail rumoured to come.

[401don]

They won't open stores while Woodward is torn apart during light rail construction.

[Zacha341]

Yikes! Well that's a point...

[Detronic]

Rumor has it there will be an Applebee's, TGI Friday's, Ruby Tuesday's, and a Chilli's all in a row.

[Zacha341]

Ick that sounds like a great culinary delight of distinction!

Though for some reason I do like Chilli's Fahitas, and 'YES' I know this is not authentic Mexican fair. I just like how they make 'em.

[Hermod]

A very high-end cufflink store
A wig shop
The world's largest liquor store
Sixteen different check-cashing and payday loan facilities

[Zacha341]

Another mayoral campaign headquarters of some sort...

And a Beauty Supply store. We'll need that for all of the damage control, politically speaking.

[wolverine]

They won't open stores while Woodward is torn apart during light rail construction.

The economic hardship because of transit construction applies to subways, not light rail.

[douglasm]

No, it applies to light rail too. It probably isn't much worse than a major road rebuild, but there were a number of studies done on the impact of the construction of light rail in Seattle. A good one on the impact of light rail construction in a number of communities [[Seattle, Portland, Denver and Salt Lake City, among others) was published in 2007, before Seattle's construction was started.

http://reconnectingamerica.org/asset...tegies2007.pdf

The impact IS large but is as much dependent on the length of time it takes the construction to occur as other factors.

It may be some different in a downtown area, to some extent your shopping base is captive, that is local residents and people who work downtown and may not be as dependent on people traveling into the area to shop.

[DetroitPlanner]

Rumor has it there will be an Applebee's, TGI Friday's, Ruby Tuesday's, and a Chilli's all in a row.

What? No Olive Garden?

Regarding the impact of construction. It will be minimal. Not much reconstruction is needed S of Adams. Unlike most places around here, pedestrian traffic is good enough to mitigate any loss of auto accessibility.

[Zug]

Rumor has it there will be an Applebee's, TGI Friday's, Ruby Tuesday's, and a Chilli's all in a row.

Unlike some, I wouldn't mind a few of these But these aren't retail...and I am like the OP...I too wonder when there will be some real retail. I will not get picky with all the typical mall retail stores either. I personally hope that Gilbert's Hudsons block building will have a mall-like feel to it on the 1st - 3rd floors...but I'll have to wait to see what he has up his sleeves. But at the very least, it would be nice if Woodward south of GCP was completely occupied with retail & restaurants. There's no reason why Royal Oak and Birmingham can be that way and not Detroit...

As for the light rail...has the layout been finalized? Maybe it slipped past me [[I come & go with how closely I pay attention to local news), but I have been wondering how exactly the light rail will go between GCP & Campus Martius.

[DetroitPlanner]

I personally hope that Gilbert's Hudsons block building will have a mall-like feel to it on the 1st - 3rd floors...but I'll have to wait to see what he has up his sleeves. But at the very least, it would be nice if Woodward south of GCP was completely occupied with retail & restaurants. There's no reason why Royal Oak and Birmingham can be that way and not Detroit...

As for the light rail...has the layout been finalized? Maybe it slipped past me [[I come & go with how closely I pay attention to local news), but I have been wondering how exactly the light rail will go between GCP & Campus Martius.

1. One thing thats been learned is that it is darned hard to get folks past the first floor in many multi-floor retail malls. Many of the ones built withing the last 15-20 years in Chicago along Michigan have learned this the hard way. The best you can hope for is having a not-so-level site with entrances on different levels. Taubman knew this as evidenced by Fairlane, 12 Oaks and Lakeside. Briarwood does not have the same demographics so it was developed with only one floor.

Yes M-1 has final drawings and will run down the center and at the curb, crossing at different locations.

[Detroitdave]

Well it's not downtown , more midtown , but shinola opened over the weekend.
its a beautiful store ,ill try to post pics.
"pess..., hey mister, wanna buy a watch" LOL :-)
"how about a bike " :-)
disclosure they aren't cheap , but they are BEAUTIFUL and handmade and MADE IN DETROIT !!!!!

[Zug]

1. One thing thats been learned is that it is darned hard to get folks past the first floor in many multi-floor retail malls. Many of the ones built withing the last 15-20 years in Chicago along Michigan have learned this the hard way. The best you can hope for is having a not-so-level site with entrances on different levels. Taubman knew this as evidenced by Fairlane, 12 Oaks and Lakeside. Briarwood does not have the same demographics so it was developed with only one floor.

Yes M-1 has final drawings and will run down the center and at the curb, crossing at different locations.

Yeah, I guess that's true *sigh* And the only way I can see urban sites having multi-level entrances is by being connected to an underground walkway and/or subway system [[like Houston, Toronto), OR with skywalk and/or elevated train systems [[like Calgary, Chicago)...neither of which exist in Detroit in a large enough scale. A lively streetscape would be my priority anyway...so Gilbert better do that right!

Also, I decided to find the M1 plan since you said it was finalized [[ http://www.m-1rail.com/wp-content/up...n3-14-13-2.pdf ). Section 1.7 describes the lane usage I was asking about. On a different note, I was glad to see reasonable ridership estimates at 3 million/year. I remember reading the history of the People Mover, with estimates of 100 million/year [[lol)...and "low" estimates of 40 million [[lol lol). So at least the project is being designed with realistic expectations.

[401don]

The economic hardship because of transit construction applies to subways, not light rail.

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&...48572450,d.aWc

[DetroitPlanner]

Yeah, I guess that's true *sigh* And the only way I can see urban sites having multi-level entrances is by being connected to an underground walkway and/or subway system [[like Houston, Toronto), OR with skywalk and/or elevated train systems [[like Calgary, Chicago)...neither of which exist in Detroit in a large enough scale. A lively streetscape would be my priority anyway...so Gilbert better do that right!

You forgot about connecting them to parking garages! That is what Somerset Mall has done. Though that in and of itself is not a real big generator. My guess is that more folks go to the second floor to use the skywalk between the two malls rather than frogger across Big Beaver.

Connecting to a parking garage though in a downtown is rather a silly justification for putting in a bridge in this case. We want more people on the streets not less, and there currently is a glut of parking on that block underground. At one time Grand Rapids tried to save its downtown by building a multi-story mall attached to parking. That failed miserably. Columbus, the fastest growing city in the Great Lakes region did the same thing only to have the whole mall get brought down by a wrecking ball a few years back. MPS does have a relatively healthy system of bridges connecting buildings, but that takes years of planning and a commitments by developers to pull off. You can't really connect it to Compuware now without massive changes to the building's layout as the second floor is part of the 'private' space.

[mwilbert]

My viewpoint is that you aren't going to have successful retail downtown until you have more people downtown, and that there are not yet enough people. Clearly that is not a universal sentiment. But what I think is obvious is that there isn't going to be enough retail downtown to fill all the ground-level space for a long time, so I'm not really very worried about whether people will be willing to go upstairs to the non-existent stores there.

[401don]

A big problem I see for retailers is trying to identify a large enough demographic that will shop in your store. You may have several thousand potential customers downtown but it is composed of office workers, African Americans from the neighborhoods, the new urban dwellers of various ethnic origins, Latinos, suburban residents, tourists, etc. There is not a core of 20,000 people who live and work downtown. They may all buy smartphones but their tastes in clothing, home furnishings, etc. varies greatly. It reminds me of when Hudson's was near closing and what a hodgepodge of offerings was available as they tried to figure out who were their remaining customers.

[D_Town]

I don't see anything significant outside of boutiques until there's like 40/50K living population downtown.

[DetroitPlanner]

I don't see anything significant outside of boutiques until there's like 40/50K living population downtown.

Why? There is lots of retail in places like West Branch and they don't have anywhere near that much population.

Downtown never had that much population when it had stores.

If West Branch can get folks to consider it a shopping center supporting a Walmart, Kmart, and Sears, and have a population of 5,000 in a county with a population of about 20k, the CBD should be able to outpace it. Its not like there are great paying jobs in Ogemaw County [[household income of $30k) compared to downtown Detroit [[Detroit's household income is $25k but significantly higher in or near Downtown). In 2006 the followin has it pinned at $59k. [[page 9) http://socialcompact.org/images/uplo...t_In_Focus.pdf

[Onthe405]

A big problem I see for retailers is trying to identify a large enough demographic that will shop in your store . . .They may all buy smartphones but their tastes in clothing, home furnishings, etc. varies greatly. It reminds me of when Hudson's was near closing and what a hodgepodge of offerings was available as they tried to figure out who were their remaining customers.

Spot on point. I would also add the dual challenge of traditional retailers grappling with the ever-increasing competition of online shopping [[incidentally, this threat also applies to smart phones) and specialization. The scope and potential of profitability for "brick-and-mortar" retailers continues to narrow.

Don, your mention of Hudson's is relevant. For all the waxing nostalgic about the store's demise [[include me in that category), its outdated department store retail model has been dying a slow death for decades--and it's not going to come back, either. Our consumer shopping patterns have changed irrevocably. Using the analogy of a car, an old Model T elicits a warm fuzzy feeling of history & nostalgia for a "simpler time"---but would we really want to drive one to work every day?

While a few "grand dame" stores still exist [[Herald Square, Union Square, State St, Center City), their value is largely as a glimpse into a gilded past, but are no longer a particularly unique shopping experience. Macy's is having an increasingly difficult time keeping this square footage filled with merchandise that is both profitable and also offers a product consumers can't find somewhere else at a better price.

Because the real estate is already paid for and there is still a reasonable number of architectural/historical-oriented tourists & local upper income patrons in the CBD [[neither of which currently apply in Detroit), they survive. However, "surviving" is not the same as "thriving".

Through homogenization, consolidation, & increased margins [[lower cost merchandise) Macy's has been able to turn some respectable profit at its existing stores. However, take a look at their website to see how many new outlets are opening and [[more importantly) the square footage of those stores. That's a telling indicator of the future of the comprehensive "thimble-to-piano" department store.

The most practical & realistic demographic fit for DTD would probably be CityTarget. Target discount pricing, with merchandise geared toward urban households.

[mwilbert]

Why? There is lots of retail in places like West Branch and they don't have anywhere near that much population.

West Branch, unappealing though it is, has:

1) Plenty of free parking
2) A location selected to be convenient to a large number of non-local people when they have free time and are likely to be in a spending mood.

Downtown does not have free parking, and the people working down there are busy. Nor is it more convenient to most of its potential customer base than a lot of other places. Although there are a lot of people going downtown for entertainment, they are already spending their money on tickets and restaurants/bars, often have short-term time constraints related to those entertainment activities, and therefore their impact on the local retailers is likely to be limited, although it is better than nothing.

Downtown never had that much population when it had stores.

That's true, and if it had remained a shopping destination in the intervening time, it might not need that population now. In reality though, it isn't anymore, and it does. Eventually the retail there might reach critical mass and not be largely dependent on nearby customers, but I don't see a path to that point which doesn't involve a lot more people living nearby.

[corktownyuppie]

Downtown residents is a factor, but is not going to be the primary factor, as evidenced by Whole Foods which is ridiculously busy no matter what time of day or night or weekday/weekend I go.

Whatever will be next will do well if it can simultaneously appeal to:

- college students [[who spend money even though they show up as very low income)
- health care professionals who would rather shop at a store close to work rather than close to home
- Detroiters out in the neighborhoods who would rather shop in the city than crossing over into the nearest suburb
- Hipsters and Yuppies flooding Downtown
- Tourists in town on business or to get to a sports/cultural attraction

I'm not a retail guy, so I don't know what that would be...but any retailer that can be simultaneously be popular for all of the above will make a killing.

[DetroitPlanner]

2) A location selected to be convenient to a large number of non-local people when they have free time and are likely to be in a spending mood.

Downtown does not have free parking, and the people working down there are busy. Nor is it more convenient to most of its potential customer base than a lot of other places. Although there are a lot of people going downtown for entertainment, they are already spending their money on tickets and restaurants/bars, often have short-term time constraints related to those entertainment activities, and therefore their impact on the local retailers is likely to be limited, although it is better than nothing.

Seriously? Detroit has way more people visiting it than West Branch ever could. Heck if West Branch got as many visitors on a day as Detroit does on a football, baseball or even a rock show at the Fox I would be shocked.

There are lots of leisure magnets in the Center City. West Branch has no DIA, Riverfront, Eastern Market. Sure its the county seat, but how many people actually go to Court in West Branch Compared to Detroit. West Branch has a couple hundred hotel rooms tops while Detroit has over 5,000.

[mwilbert]

Let me try again.

It is the difference between shopping for tourists and shopping for locals. West Branch's model is to catch passers-by with time on their hands. It doesn't need hotel rooms; the vast majority of customers in West Branch aren't staying there overnight. Downtown Detroit has passers-by, but it is much harder for people to get off the freeway and park downtown that it is for them to do the same in West Branch. So they won't. The people downtown [[other than residents) are generally there for some purpose, and are usually focused on that purpose. The total number of people isn't the important number, it is the number of people who are interested in shopping, and most people going to the Fox or Comerica want to get there on time, and then want to hightail it home. They may plan enough time to get something to eat, but they aren't generally going to be thinking shopping. There is no doubt that some of them would shop if there were shopping in the immediate vicinity, but I don't believe it is enough to allow retailers to survive without a larger local customer base.

Once a place becomes a shopping destination the dynamics are different but downtown is nowhere near that. I would also suggest that people going to the DIA [[too far north) or Eastern Market [[too far, too much food that they need to get home) aren't actually likely downtown shoppers. People visiting the Riverfront are more plausible, but that seems to be a destination mostly for people who are downtown anyway, like employees.

This is a case where I'd be delighted to be wrong, but it is very unlikely.