Model D Regionalism Talk

[dmike76]

Last night, I went to the Model D Regionalism talk at the DIA. The panel included the head of the RTA, the head of the Brightmoor Alliance, one of the Detroit Future City guys,one of the higher level DIA people, and Katy Cockrel. I'm bad with names. Anyway, some of it was the typical discussion about transit, etc. The audience Q&A is what really grabbed me. There was one guy who stood up and started yelling and bitching about the governor and the EM and how the state screwed everyone. Not only was his rant unproductive and divisive, it was completely irrelevant to the discussion. However, there was a lady named Marsha who owns the Marsha Music blog. She made an intelligent statment that was eye-opening for me. In response to a comment that the RTA leader made about Detroit being abandoned, she responded by saying[[paraphrase)....Sir, when you use the word abandonment in that way, it makes the citizens of Detroit feel like we are invisible; like we don't count. We never left. In the future, please consider that when you speak about the people of Detroit. So simple and so stunning. I am from Livonia and I'm all for regionalism, but her statement opened my eyes to a personal, heart felt viewpoint of the citizens who have fought tooth and nail to keep their city safe, clean and viable that I just didn't understand. One intelligent statement that counteracts all the non-productive screaming and yelling that occurs at city council meetings. I spoke with her afterwards and thanked her for that statement.

[TexasT]

She posts here.

[dmike76]

Further, someone got up and threw all of Livonia under the bus for being racist and segregated. I also did not appreciate that. While it's hard to argue some behavior and facts about demographics, I didn't appreciate the blanket statement about us. Animosity about the 'blank slate' moniker also came up. I, and other suburbanites don't feel that way at all. I don't want to 'invade' Detroit and turn it into a white suburbia. I want to live there because it's NOT suburbia. While Livonia is a nice, safe, clean city, I'm bored with it. I don't want a cookie cutter lifestyle anymore. I don't want to steal Detroit's identity; I want to be a part of it, and I CAN do that while still living in Livonia from a regionalistic standpoint, but I want to live in the D and be a part of the fabric of the city and help keep it clean and safe. I think that's a big misconception that a lot of Detroiters have about suburbanites.

[Novine]

"I think that's a big misconception that a lot of Detroiters have about suburbanites."

The problem is that there's a lot of suburbanites, some who live in Livonia, who don't agree with your view and frankly, don't give a whit about Detroit.

[dmike76]

There are a lot of Detroiters on the opposite end of the spectrum that are just as stubborn, wouldn't you agree? I'm holding people accountable on both sides of the fence that I'm trying to help break down. There are some people who will never see things differently and there's nothing I can do about them.

[Eber Brock Ward]

There are a lot of Detroiters on the opposite end of the spectrum that are just as stubborn, wouldn't you agree? I'm holding people accountable on both sides of the fence that I'm trying to help break down. There are some people who will never see things differently and there's nothing I can do about them.

Need more people like this that will call out both sides.

[iheartthed]

Sir, when you use the word abandonment in that way, it makes the citizens of Detroit feel like we are invisible; like we don't count. We never left. In the future, please consider that when you speak about the people of Detroit. So simple and so stunning. I am from Livonia and I'm all for regionalism, but her statement opened my eyes to a personal, heart felt viewpoint of the citizens who have fought tooth and nail to keep their city safe, clean and viable that I just didn't understand. One intelligent statement that counteracts all the non-productive screaming and yelling that occurs at city council meetings. I spoke with her afterwards and thanked her for that statement.

Don't take this the wrong way but I'm glad you finally found enlightenment. IMO, a major part of the dysfunction in [[metro) Detroit today is that the decisions being made about the city are done by people who don't have any liability for the consequences of those decisions. For instance, that long ass thread arguing about the widening of I-94. If all that Midtown is to you is a place you speed past while going from Metro Airport to Macomb County then of course you think that widening the freeway is a good idea. But if you actually live there then that's a different story. However, the people who have to stare directly at the consequences of widening the freeway aren't the ones who get to decide whether the freeway gets widened.

[dmike76]

It's not like I wasn't aware of people in Detroit having a lot of problems, but I guess Marsha's statement made me see a bit more about WHY they feel the way they do. I didn't really understand the reason for their anger, animosity, etc towards the 'burbs even though I thought I did. My entire understanding of it wasn't wrong, but that understanding has expanded a bit.

[dmike76]

iheartthed, in fairness, a lot of the politicians that run Detroit make decisions as if they don't have any liablility either.

[TexasT]

It's not like I wasn't aware of people in Detroit having a lot of problems, but I guess Marsha's statement made me see a bit more about WHY they feel the way they do. I didn't really understand the reason for their anger, animosity, etc towards the 'burbs even though I thought I did. My entire understanding of it wasn't wrong, but that understanding has expanded a bit.

Good to hear. That's the point of a discussion like that.

[jaytheory]

Further, someone got up and threw all of Livonia under the bus for being racist and segregated. I also did not appreciate that. While it's hard to argue some behavior and facts about demographics, I didn't appreciate the blanket statement about us. Animosity about the 'blank slate' moniker also came up. I, and other suburbanites don't feel that way at all. I don't want to 'invade' Detroit and turn it into a white suburbia. I want to live there because it's NOT suburbia. While Livonia is a nice, safe, clean city, I'm bored with it. I don't want a cookie cutter lifestyle anymore. I don't want to steal Detroit's identity; I want to be a part of it, and I CAN do that while still living in Livonia from a regionalistic standpoint, but I want to live in the D and be a part of the fabric of the city and help keep it clean and safe. I think that's a big misconception that a lot of Detroiters have about suburbanites.

then move here. dont say you want to, just do it.

[iheartthed]

iheartthed, in fairness, a lot of the politicians that run Detroit make decisions as if they don't have any liablility either.

Ha, yeah, I fully agree. I actually wrote that into my original response but cut it because I didn't want to ramble on too long to make the point. But yeah, at the risk of being philosophical about the culture of Detroit, lack of accountability is a recurring theme. That was a major complaint about auto industry for decades, a complaint about public sector workers, politicians, mid-century urban renewal efforts, etc. A bunch of people making decisions of which they don't have to live with the consequences.

[dmike76]

I can't right now. My wife is still going school and we are not in a financial situation to buy a new house. Until she graduates next year, gets a job, and we pay off some debt, we really can't do it.

[dmike76]

Also, we have to consider schools. We just got married and we want to have kids in the next year or two. We have to factor in a cost of potentially paying for a private school. I welcome any suggestions on if DPS is really a viable option.

[TexasT]

Also, we have to consider schools. We just got married and we want to have kids in the next year or two. We have to factor in a cost of potentially paying for a private school. I welcome any suggestions on if DPS is really a viable option.

Even if DPS isn't, we pay 1/4 for our mortgage in Detroit than we did for our rent elsewhere. We can pay for two kids' private school tuition and our mortgage and come out paying less than we were for rent alone. Most Holy Trinity, private school in Corktown, for example, is $5K/year for two kids. Not every private school breaks the bank.

[Detroitnerd]

There are a lot of Detroiters on the opposite end of the spectrum that are just as stubborn, wouldn't you agree? I'm holding people accountable on both sides of the fence that I'm trying to help break down. There are some people who will never see things differently and there's nothing I can do about them.

I think that a few things are driving these sorts of statements:

1) Projection: I think that a lot of suburban metro Detroiters [[and let's be honest here: they're almost completely white folks -- and that's not a racist statement; more on that later) are stubborn, very much used to getting what they want, or at least never seeing their ox get gored at all. Psychologically speaking, it is much easier to feel this way when you believe that your perceived "opponents" really feel just the way that you do; that if the roles were reversed, they'd be comfortable with you getting the short end of a deal as well. And so you have a distorted view of what "Detroiters" want to see. And then you can say, well, they're just as stubborn as me, so never the twain shall meet.

2) Unwillingness to examine privilege or power: But certainly there are some people in Detroit who want to see the suburbs get done, right? Like, payback time, right? There must be at least the occasional fringe Detroiter running around in a red-black-and-green liberation jumpsuit, talking about sticking it to whitey, right? Well, this is a handful of people with no real political power. The goddamn Northville Chamber of Commerce probably has more political power than all the grape-throwing revolutionaries in Detroit. I mean, if the anti-freeway, pro-urban, power-to-the-people folks are such a threat, why is it that they always lose? Always see their ox gored? It's because the system is weighted so that somebody who wants to drive through Detroit is more important than somebody who lives there. City people understand this well; suburban folks, not so much. Examining white privilege and lingering institutional racism is a discussion that could alleviate such invisible and often unintentional biases.

3) Lack of understanding of our history: More than anything, I think people in metro Detroit live mythological lives. Rather than understand the history of the region, they are told comforting myths spun by the people who'd rather not discuss the troubling past or the actual realities. If you understand the past, and the forces that have pulled us apart, you understand that the barriers today are really not so high. That we all pretty much want the same things, and are mostly willing to put in the work to get them. The actual numbers demonstrate that the suburbs are well-funded, and in many cases that funding comes from the hard-done-by people of Detroit. But if you don't know that, and instead believe that you are paying billions of dollars for city residents to sit on their fat asses, poop out babies and yawl about white people, then how are you going to find common cause? This stubborn reluctance to examine the past is a very serious obstacle, especially when it comes to race. I mean, you never hear people say, "Gosh, those Jews are so touchy. The Holocaust was WAY in the past, get over it already!" So why should we say the same things to black people about slavery or good old-fashioned American racism? Understanding our past lights the path to us realizing that, whether we like each other or not, our destinies are all bound up together, and we fall as one people or prevail as one people.

OK, I guess I'll step off my soapbox now and let other people have their say.

[dmike76]

Well I definitely would love to get as much info as I can on schools and she graduates in less than a year. Problem is she has like 200G worth of student loans.

[Det_ard]

While I understand why Detroiters might not like the word abandoned being used to describe the city, I also understand why people use it to describe a city where 2/3 of 2.0 million people left.

[TexasT]

Well I definitely would love to get as much info as I can on schools and she graduates in less than a year. Problem is she has like 200G worth of student loans.

A lot of students loans here too - husband and I are both attorneys. That's why the we moved out of Chicago and to Detroit. We bought an awesome house in a stable neighborhood and pay less than 1/4 of what we paid in rent back in Chicago. We are cutting down our debt way faster than we could have anywhere else. Do we have to put up with some bullshit that we didn't have to back in Wicker Park? Sure. Is that bullshit worth getting out of debt a decade earlier? Hell yes it is.

I'm not part of the "you can't love Detroit unless you live here" crowd but if you do want to move here, the obstacles are not as high as you think. Especially if one of you gets a job with the Live Midtown companies - they give you 20K for a down payment.

[dmike76]

detroitnerd, I'd like to comment on your third point. I do agree that our past needs to be remembered so that we don't repeat history. Plus, as a white male, I certainly have never experienced racism/genocide/that sort of thing on any scale. Let me propose this though, with no intention of belittling any of those evil concepts. How can I word this....do you think it's possible that there are many people on both sides of the fence who are basing their present day decisions/perceptions about regionalism on the past [[ie: race riots)? And if that IS the case [[which I think it is), is there a way to stop allowing those ideas to continue to poison the region? Doesn't that involve some sort of forgiveness? Maybe not, but is it fair to place those burdens on the current generation and future generations? Like I said, I have not experienced these things, but I have also never persecuted anyone and because I live in Livonia, I'm sure I've been labeled as a racist. Now, there is definitely racism going on in present day, and I can obviously see how that can renew the us v. them mentality, but am I wrong in thinking that maybe there is LESS violent racism than their used to be, mainly because of my perception that there aren't massive amounts of black v. white riots? And if my perception is even a little bit correct, shouldn't my generation, my kids and the families in Detroit let some of that stuff go and think of things in a different light? Not forget the past mind you, but not let it affect the future?

[dmike76]

TexasT, do you mind telling me which neighborhood you're in? If you don't want to post it on the site, maybe you could send me an email or something. commish1276@hotmail.com Thanks.

[Detroitnerd]

detroitnerd, I'd like to comment on your third point. I do agree that our past needs to be remembered so that we don't repeat history. Plus, as a white male, I certainly have never experienced racism/genocide/that sort of thing on any scale. Let me propose this though, with no intention of belittling any of those evil concepts. How can I word this....do you think it's possible that there are many people on both sides of the fence who are basing their present day decisions/perceptions about regionalism on the past [[ie: race riots)? And if that IS the case [[which I think it is), is there a way to stop allowing those ideas to continue to poison the region? Doesn't that involve some sort of forgiveness? Maybe not, but is it fair to place those burdens on the current generation and future generations? Like I said, I have not experienced these things, but I have also never persecuted anyone and because I live in Livonia, I'm sure I've been labeled as a racist. Now, there is definitely racism going on in present day, and I can obviously see how that can renew the us v. them mentality, but am I wrong in thinking that maybe there is LESS violent racism than their used to be, mainly because of my perception that there aren't massive amounts of black v. white riots? And if my perception is even a little bit correct, shouldn't my generation, my kids and the families in Detroit let some of that stuff go and think of things in a different light? Not forget the past mind you, but not let it affect the future?

Great stuff, dmike, and I agree. But I believe the first step to forgiveness is "acknowledgment." The second step is "amelioration." If we acknowledge that the playing field is not level and work to promote social equality, the logical next step would be, as a society, to really invest in our young people, wherever they live, so that any one of them could be tomorrow's leaders. That last generation did a great job of moving away from social problems and then blaming the poorest for the problems of being poor. We have to acknowledge the sins of that generation and work to fix them. Together. Wen we're really on that path, then we can have that love-fest we've been waiting for.

We're just people, right? But we're still affected by the wrongs of the past. The higher up you go on the scale of leadership, the more remnants there are of that past generation that sowed the seeds of our regional disaster and benefit from them. As far as I'm concerned, the L. Brookses and the Benny Napoleons of our region are two sides of the same coin. We need young, fresh leadership with a more equitable vision for the future.

[TexasT]

TexasT, do you mind telling me which neighborhood you're in? If you don't want to post it on the site, maybe you could send me an email or something. commish1276@hotmail.com Thanks.

I live in Woodbridge, but message sent!

[Eber Brock Ward]

Hey dmike, on the "Livonia" thing:

It's a result of the way Livonia acts as an entity. 49% of the people in Livonia could be awesome, but when 51% of the people in Livonia vote, either directly or indirectly through their representatives, to opt out of SMART, or vote for things damaging to the city at SEMCOG, and so on, Livonia gets a bad rap and then people from Livonia get a bad rap. The bad actions of Livonia political folks get imputed on to even the good 49%, to use my hypothetical number above.

It's not that different from how a lot of Detroiters get a bad rap as "running around in a red-black-and-green liberation jumpsuit, talking about sticking it to whitey" [[hat tip to dnerd for that) because of Joann Watson [[only 54,653 votes!) asking for a federal bailout, or Kwame Kenyatta [[only 57,541!) wanting to see the University Club burn because some racist white people hung out there like a 100 years ago.

It's unfortunate, but it's easy to caricature Livonians and Detroiters when the people that they elect are actually, um, caricatures or straight from central casting.

And that makes it no easier for any of us to get along.

[Eber Brock Ward]

We're just people, right? But we're still affected by the wrongs of the past. The higher up you go on the scale of leadership, the more remnants there are of that past generation that sowed the seeds of our regional disaster and benefit from them. As far as I'm concerned, the L. Brookses and the Benny Napoleons of our region are two sides of the same coin. We need young, fresh leadership with a more equitable vision for the future.

Totally agreed with this, and it's what I was trying to get at with the "Livonia stuffed suit" and "Kenyatta/Watson" stuff in my post directly above.