Wayne State and their never ending tuition increases

[belleislerunner]

So it looks like the BOG from WSU will vote tomorrow to adopt a sizable tuition increase yet again. My guess it will be just shy of double digits [[e.g. 9.6%) http://www.freep.com/article/2013062...ition-increase

The trend in unsustainable spending between WSU and Detroit is bothersome. Leadership at WSU, based off the article, has adopted the same mentality as Detroit [[let's blame Lansing for all our issues) instead of fixing the structural and legacy issues. Who cares that your 10 year graduation rate isn't even 50% when you're being evaluated on a 6 year rate. So the reality is that the state gives you less money - deal with it - instead of whining about how you can't make cuts.

I think many colleges [[including WSU) feel entitled to raise prices every year thinking there is no breaking point. Presidents come in making 500K/year for 2-5 years and have no incentive to not "rock the boat" so the school glories in a new research building while spending itself into bankruptcy. The problem is WSU customers [[students) aren't like other Michigan college customers. Univ of Michigan's incoming class was 43% out of state students. They're coming from money and will pay full price. Michigan State appeals to students from accross the state. WSU attracts 75+% of students from SE Michigan. Many are first generation college kids strugging to get a degree. That unending demand of resources on a financially strained student is not limitless. Soon there won't be a justifable cost benefit anlysis of a high school senior choosing a D2 school in Midtown over a D1 school in Auburn Hills.

Sure there are centers of excellence [[medicine, law, engineering) that bring in research dollars to WSU - but it's really time to take the axe to departments/faculty in the remaining departments. Why do we even need foreign language departments at WSU? What marketable skill is learning Spanish, specifically at WSU, going to provide that Macomb or WCCC couldn't provide better? Or art history, or gender studies, or English, or liberal arts. Or half of their degrees.

I think one of the best near term outcomes is students revolt over the hikes in the near term with their feet and transfer to OU while the incoming freshman class decreases substantially. Enrollment could fall from 30K to a 22-25K range. That would force structural/legacy issues to be addressed immediately. Why is any new hire entitled to a pension in 2013? Enrollment could trick back up once it becomes managable - but aside from the location - it's getting harder and harder to justify the cost of a WSU undergraduate degree.

Coming from a guy who got one.

[guito13]

Man, I better finish up my MBA sooner than later....5 classes to go!

Right now its about 2200 a class with all the fees!

[Wesley Mouch]

You don't want tuition hikes? Then stop student loans. Once students can't afford schools, the schools will have to spend responsibly.

Schools are basically increasing their infrastructure and costs to best utilize the increased money available because students can take out loans.

Why should students finance school construction and wage increases above the prevailing wages of the market?

[ghettopalmetto]

You don't want tuition hikes? Then stop student loans. Once students can't afford schools, the schools will have to spend responsibly.

Schools are basically increasing their infrastructure and costs to best utilize the increased money available because students can take out loans.

Why should students finance school construction and wage increases above the prevailing wages of the market?

I'm going to take a shot in the dark, and assume you didn't pay for a college degree.

[Baselinepunk]

I'm going to take a shot in the dark, and assume you didn't pay for a college degree.

LOL!!!! Didn't the party that hates big government / government regulation pass legislation limiting the amount of colleges and universities can raise on the backs of the student body? Glad this is my last class. With the party of "nope, nadda" obstructing anything and everything in Congress, student loan rates will now double as well. This is in addition to the party of "nope, nadda" pass national legislation placing an additional 1% on student loans as part of the deficit reduction act. Thanks again, Georgie Poo! The University system will collapse under it's own weight; places like WSU don't stand a chance. That is unless they hack off about 30% of their administration -- yes I think it is at least that top heavy. While we're at, let's cut off Reid's Emeritus status, his perks and his 300,000 salary +.

[Det_ard]

I'm going to take a shot in the dark, and assume you didn't pay for a college degree.

I'll take a shot in the dark and assume you never studied economics or business.

[Wesley Mouch]

I'm going to take a shot in the dark, and assume you didn't pay for a college degree.

Brilliant. You're right, I didn't pay -- scholarship did the trick. Regardless of that, the cost in those dark ages was affordable -- it was before student loans allowed the schools to raise tuition.

You don't see the connection, do you? Student loans are a significant factor in high tuition, IMO. I'd like to see a study of correlating student loans outstanding against tuitions.

While on this topic, do you think health care got cheaper after the UAW won [[significantly) free health care?

Cause -> Effect. Not of course sole factor.

[Justin SOD]

I'm currently a student at Wayne State and received an e-mail today stating there would be an 8.9% tuition increase. As someone going back to school for a second career, increases this big definitely make me second guess my decision to return to/stay in school. Already looking at $100,000 in debt upon graduation at the current rates....

[firstandten]

BOG Kim Trent gives her explanation "I agonized over the decision to vote for an 8.9 percent tuition increase for Wayne State University undergraduate students for FY 2014 and I want to explain to you why I supported it. Lansing has withdrawn support for higher education for many years and our state appropriation for 2014 is the same as it was for 1989, not adjusted for inflation. Meanwhile, WSU’s tuition rate has been artificially ...low when compared with Michigan’s two other high activity research universities, MSU and UM. Because of cuts in state funding, declining enrollments and other factors, the university would face massive cuts beyond the $19 million we have already cut from our FY 2014 budget without this increase. In fact, we've cut $50 million over the past three budget cycles"

[Cliffy]

Actually to be honest, its not that bad in comparison to other schools in the area. You're talking 340 a credit hour for freshman and soph and 400 per credit hour for junior and senior. Very close to Oakland U.

[Danny]

When I was a student in Wayne State U. It was a school in the middle in the ghetto! The WSU Board of Directors wants their campus to be like Harvard and attract some young professionals rather then some fail Detroit Public Student, hard and innovative working Arabs from Dearborn and some East Indians from some slums of Mumbai.

Over that years when art culture became pop culture, and our government is cutting money to our academic institutions, tuition increases will have to do in order to save their programs and prove government that these kids will be learned and seeking regional jobs. So get used to rising costs. Its time for kids and parents to plan for their future and prepare for the worst. That will be their fate!

[noise]

Meanwhile, WSU’s tuition rate has been artificially ...low when compared with Michigan’s two other high activity research universities, MSU and UM.

This is ultimately the comparison by which they're operating, as they're the only 3 universities in this category in the state. Universities serve more functions than teaching undergraduate students and those functions often cost money. The general public often has a pretty myopic view of the role of "college", not understanding or acknowledging the differences.

If the students wanted [[and would enroll) in a school that offered no amenities, I wonder how much tuition could decrease. Unfortunately, that's not what sells a university, given the interest incoming students and their parents have during orientation and tours.

[firstandten]

Ultimately universities will need to find a way to condense degree programs by a year or more so that students aren't taking unnecessary classes. The way these programs are set up, the classes and prerequisites needed has turned education into one big money grab. Students getting into six figure student loan debt because they are trying to do the right thing and get ahead in life. So while I can understand WSU need to stay solvent, the entire system needs reform.

[ghettopalmetto]

Brilliant. You're right, I didn't pay -- scholarship did the trick. Regardless of that, the cost in those dark ages was affordable -- it was before student loans allowed the schools to raise tuition.

You don't see the connection, do you? Student loans are a significant factor in high tuition, IMO. I'd like to see a study of correlating student loans outstanding against tuitions.

While on this topic, do you think health care got cheaper after the UAW won [[significantly) free health care?

Cause -> Effect. Not of course sole factor.

Might as well get rid of mortgages, then. They just make housing way too expensive.

What's your alternative--eliminate student loans and thus ensure that higher education becomes the strict province of the wealthy? Or are you going to argue some unsubstantiated economic voodoo bullshit?

You're aware that Wayne State, as a public university, has a budget that is very much public. You're welcome to review it anytime you want. Then you can tell us exactly how "overpaid" all those state employees are....

[JBMcB]

Might as well get rid of mortgages, then. They just make housing way too expensive.

Were you sleeping through the real estate bubble? The government artificially kept lending rates low, housing prices shot up. Float the rate and housing prices stabilize where they should be. Same situation with student loans - the misuse/overuse of artificially low rates is pushing up prices. This is pretty basic economics.

Then you can tell us exactly how "overpaid" all those state employees are....

When I went to WSU I paid my way through working minimum wage jobs through the school year, then full time in the summer. The campus hadn't changed significantly since my mom went in the 70's - it was pretty shabby, but I went to learn, not appreciate post-modern architecture.

A decade later and WSU is full of shiny new buildings and properties, and tuition is more than double. It's not hard to figure out where the money is going.

[Novine]

"Were you sleeping through the real estate bubble? The government artificially kept lending rates low, housing prices shot up. Float the rate and housing prices stabilize where they should be."

Have to love this kind of pseudo-economics. Interest rates today are lower than they were for most of the bubble period and have been kept down by the actions of the Fed. We've seen an entire cycle of boom, bust and re-inflation and yet people want to make claims like this.

[Bham1982]

Meanwhile, WSU’s tuition rate has been artificially ...low when compared with Michigan’s two other high activity research universities, MSU and UM.

But why does WSU need to have similar tuition as U-M or MSU? WSU isn't as prestigious [[generally speaking), doesn't have the same endowment, doesn't have the same proportion of non-Michigan students, and has a very different role and student population.

Generally speaking, WSU serves more working class, first generation college students, usually commuters, and often of immigrant stock. It isn't filled with out-of-state, full tuition paying kids from Connecticut or Long Island or wherever like Michigan. It doesn't have a multi-billion endowment, an army of wealthy donors, or an enormously involved alumni base.

WSU is a good school, and has some particularly strong graduation programs and noted research capabilities, but cannot hope to justify tuition increases by looking to Ann Arbor.

[ghettopalmetto]

Were you sleeping through the real estate bubble? The government artificially kept lending rates low, housing prices shot up. Float the rate and housing prices stabilize where they should be. Same situation with student loans - the misuse/overuse of artificially low rates is pushing up prices. This is pretty basic economics.



When I went to WSU I paid my way through working minimum wage jobs through the school year, then full time in the summer. The campus hadn't changed significantly since my mom went in the 70's - it was pretty shabby, but I went to learn, not appreciate post-modern architecture.

A decade later and WSU is full of shiny new buildings and properties, and tuition is more than double. It's not hard to figure out where the money is going.

You're right. It's all those God damned Poors who keep driving up the cost of everything by getting themselves into hock for an education and a place to live. When will these peasants realize that normal lives are only for people born into money?

[Wesley Mouch]

You're right. It's all those God damned Poors who keep driving up the cost of everything by getting themselves into hock for an education and a place to live. When will these peasants realize that normal lives are only for people born into money?

GP, I also strongly believe that your 'peasants' deserve a quality education. My father went from abject rural poverty to the college educated professional via GI Bill. If you want to help those in poverty, give them an education. Just pay the college costs with NO LOAN.

The loan you seem to love is the real oppression of the poor. You can squirm, but supporting student loans is supporting unaffordable college education on the backs of the working class.

JBmcB: Were you sleeping through the real estate bubble? The government artificially kept lending rates low, housing prices shot up. Float the rate and housing prices stabilize where they should be. Same situation with student loans - the misuse/overuse of artificially low rates is pushing up prices. This is pretty basic economics.

For a second, put down your rhetoric and your prejudices about the world. This is pretty basic economics, and if you accept this, you will realize the folly of much of our public policy that says it helps the poor, but really just oppresses them.

And while I'm on my soapbox, can we get rid of the mortgage interest deduction that supports the rich and inflates home prices for working-class?

[48009]

Wayne's undergrad student base is a bunch kids and non-traditional students who don't make any money, qualify for max pell grants and gov loans [["What's a tuition hike mean when you don't even know the rate on your gov loans?"), don't understand compound interest and have no other alternative besides WSU. Oakland would probably accept them, so would UM-Dearborn, but then they'd have to drive a half hour each way. UD doesn't want 2.0 students. What I'm trying to say is that most of the student body has no other option, nor do they even understand how much they're throwing away on the poor excuse of an education they receive there.

Don't get me started on their med school potentially losing it's accreditation.

[drjeff]

Wayne's undergrad student base is a bunch kids and non-traditional students who don't make any money, qualify for max pell grants and gov loans [["What's a tuition hike mean when you don't even know the rate on your gov loans?"), don't understand compound interest and have no other alternative besides WSU. Oakland would probably accept them, so would UM-Dearborn, but then they'd have to drive a half hour each way. UD doesn't want 2.0 students. What I'm trying to say is that most of the student body has no other option, nor do they even understand how much they're throwing away on the poor excuse of an education they receive there.

Don't get me started on their med school potentially losing it's accreditation.

I'd like to get you started, since I'm on the faculty of the med school and there is absolutely no chance we are losing accreditation. So what the hell are you insinuating?

Also, while there is a serious problem on main campus with students who are not prepared to do college level work when they arrive, it's ridiculous to claim that the education undergrads receive is substandard. There are excellent faculty in all the WSU schools. There are also excellent students.

[drjeff]

By the way, WSU receives more NIH research funding than MSU and the med school has a higher residency match rate than either MSU or UM despite being more than twice as large. Yeah, it really sucks though.

[ghettopalmetto]

GP, I also strongly believe that your 'peasants' deserve a quality education. My father went from abject rural poverty to the college educated professional via GI Bill. If you want to help those in poverty, give them an education. Just pay the college costs with NO LOAN.

The loan you seem to love is the real oppression of the poor. You can squirm, but supporting student loans is supporting unaffordable college education on the backs of the working class.

Believe me, I know all about student loans. I would prefer that we were like any other civilized nation, and provide low-cost of free university education to our citizens. Such a thing is considered "socialist" in good ole Murrica, though.

I have this crazy theory that, when states start cutting taxes, there isn't enough money for everything. Higher education funding is one of the first items on the chopping list. Given the alternative [[not receiving a degree), student loans are a compromise. But to blame loans for rising tuition costs? There's no evidence to support that.

[Wesley Mouch]

Believe me, I know all about student loans. I would prefer that we were like any other civilized nation, and provide low-cost of free university education to our citizens. Such a thing is considered "socialist" in good ole Murrica, though.

I have this crazy theory that, when states start cutting taxes, there isn't enough money for everything. Higher education funding is one of the first items on the chopping list. Given the alternative [[not receiving a degree), student loans are a compromise. But to blame loans for rising tuition costs? There's no evidence to support that.

GP, we agree on low-cost university education. The question is how to get there.

Cost cutting is almost always done to vital services first. Education, police, fire. Why? Because the people in charge certainly never see themselves as something to cut. They cut what most pains the taxpayers. That's how you get more revenues. Millage for schools has a chance. Millage for pension benefits for accountants, less sellable.

I do hope you take seriously the discussion about why student loans [[and health insurance and mortgages) do help reduce affordability. If you want to achieve social good, you will only do so if you accept the laws of economics. Otherwise you are on a threadmill. More loans, higher tuition require more loans and then higher tuition.

But I do accept that loans are here to stay. So what we've done is accept that there's a social value to education [[good), and we've chosen to have everyone pay for that value is a non-progressive way. Me, libertarian, think that this should be funded by general tax revenues that are progressive -- as they should be.

[ghettopalmetto]

GP, we agree on low-cost university education. The question is how to get there.

Cost cutting is almost always done to vital services first. Education, police, fire. Why? Because the people in charge certainly never see themselves as something to cut. They cut what most pains the taxpayers. That's how you get more revenues. Millage for schools has a chance. Millage for pension benefits for accountants, less sellable.

I do hope you take seriously the discussion about why student loans [[and health insurance and mortgages) do help reduce affordability. If you want to achieve social good, you will only do so if you accept the laws of economics. Otherwise you are on a threadmill. More loans, higher tuition require more loans and then higher tuition.

No, I don't take it seriously. If I did, then I would logically have to agree that providing FREE university education to hundreds of thousands of veterans under the G.I. Bill would have caused astronomical tuition increases after World War II.

You keep talking about these "laws of economics". Where's the equation that shows tuition increasing due to student loans?