Little Known Asset Causing More Bankruptcy Anxiety - Classic Car Collection at Stake

[SWMAP]

I'm sure many Detroiters were ill thinking about the sale of the DIA's art collection. I just couldn't listen to the news reports or read about it. I have been aware for years that the DIA's collection is highly envied by museums out west and to the south, new museums that will never be able to house great art in the numbers that we have [[the number of acknowledged masterpieces is rather finite and pretty much spoken for). This is the envy that the Los Angeles writer spoke out of when she said that Detroit should be forced to sell off the DIA's collection "so more people, in more prosperous cities could view them."

Today the NYT reports on another collection of Detroit's treasures that may be on the block:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/20/bu...ection.html?hp

I was not aware of this one:

DETROIT — As this debt-ridden city lurches toward a
possible bankruptcy filing, residents and workers have been locked in a grim
faceoff with creditors over how to preserve what remains of their services and
benefits.

Contributing to the municipal anxiety is the
possibility that some of the city’s cultural treasures could be sold off,
including masterpieces in the Detroit Institute of Arts and the Belle
Isle park in the Detroit River.

But there is another Detroit family jewel in question
that is largely unknown outside the automobile world and to some people even
more treasured — a collection of 62 lovingly maintained classic cars donated to
the city since the 1950s by civic-minded families seeking to preserve the Motor
in Motor City.

Most of the cars are stored under protective plastic
bubbles in a World War II-era riverfront warehouse on the grounds of Fort Wayne,
while others are on display at the Detroit Historical Museum or on loan to
exhibits around the country.

Just as art patrons are resisting selling van Goghs
and Matisses to satisfy Detroit’s debt, car lovers are pushing back at the
possibility of losing what they regard as the city’s historic industrial heart
and soul — including a Cadillac Osceola that dates to 1905, and a vintage Ford
Mustang worth an estimated $2 million.

[DetroitPlanner]

A $2 million Ford Mustang? Really???

[EastsideAl]

I didn't realize that it was the city that actually owned the car collection. Since they're stored at Ft. Wayne and shown at the Historical Museum, I figured they were owned by the Detroit Historical Society.

[p69rrh51]

A $2 million Ford Mustang? Really???

Planner there are also significant Packards in the collection as well as the bi-autogo and other extremely rare Scripps-Booth cyclecars. To some degree they are more priceless to our heritage than the masterpieces at the DIA.

[EastsideAl]

A $2 million Ford Mustang? Really???

I don't know about $2 million, but a one-of-a-kind 1967 Shelby Mustang did sell for $1.3 mil. earlier this year.

[cla1945]

I have been aware of the car collection for many many years. Often wondered why they never made them available for the public to view. When Orr threatens the pensions and medical care of retirees that worked hard for years to get a meager pension and health care, I would hope he would take into consideration the many assets the City has that have never been seen by it's residents and sell them. If artwork from the DIA needs to be sold, sell them before cutting the retirees legs off at the knees.

[DetroitPlanner]

I can recall a story from a few years back the City had some of these cars out on loan and the museum was using them as rental cars as a way to generate profits for themselves.

[SWMAP]

"For Themselves" ???? Personally taking the rental monies?

[cla1945]

Of course "for themselves"...would you expect anything else from the corrupt assholes who have brought Detroit down to it's knees over the last few years? Anyone with power who worked for the City was on the take if they could dip their hands into the cookie jar. Can you tell I'm pissed?

[Wesley Mouch]

"For Themselves" ???? Personally taking the rental monies?

I don't know if they were pocketing cash -- but it really doesn't matter. Here's how its done. You do anything to raise cash. Sell things like golf courses. Borrow. Anything. Then you show how profitable and essential your department is. Then you get yourself a raise and an pension increase. Life is good. No money actually goes from 'renting cars' into your pocket directly. But in the end, it gets there. Happiness retiring at 45 after years of working with 2 months vacation per year in a job where less the 0.2% get fired.

[Packman41]

I don't know if they were pocketing cash -- but it really doesn't matter. Here's how its done. You do anything to raise cash. Sell things like golf courses. Borrow. Anything. Then you show how profitable and essential your department is. Then you get yourself a raise and an pension increase. Life is good. No money actually goes from 'renting cars' into your pocket directly. But in the end, it gets there. Happiness retiring at 45 after years of working with 2 months vacation per year in a job where less the 0.2% get fired.

No, it is true – they were making cash income. The “museum” and I use the term loosely, was making a profit off the car the DHS lent to them. An expose’ was written about this in HOUR magazine about 8 years ago. According to the article the “museum” disregarded their contract with the DHS and instead of leaving the cars on static display, they rented them out for weddings, graduations, etc.

After the expose’ broke, DHS officials retrieved the cars and other historical items and sent the cars to REAL museums to go on display. That is all I can say at this time about that situation.

Sadly, the DHS does not have the room to display all of the cars in their collection. Earlier this year helped to get a Scripps Booth rocket car from an out-of-state museum and it is now on display at the Cranbrook Art Museum as part of their Michigan Modern Exhibit running through September.

[jt1]

I have been aware of the car collection for many many years. Often wondered why they never made them available for the public to view. When Orr threatens the pensions and medical care of retirees that worked hard for years to get a meager pension and health care, I would hope he would take into consideration the many assets the City has that have never been seen by it's residents and sell them. If artwork from the DIA needs to be sold, sell them before cutting the retirees legs off at the knees.

I love how you are insistent that there is no way that the retirees can give up a penny then complain about everyone working for the city as being corrupt.

What year did city workers go from being perfect angels who have not contributed to the fiscal mess to being lying thieves. Is it that the current employees are the crooks but current retirees

[cla1945]

I love how you are insistent that there is no way that the retirees can give up a penny then complain about everyone working for the city as being corrupt.

What year did city workers go from being perfect angels who have not contributed to the fiscal mess to being lying thieves. Is it that the current employees are the crooks but current retirees

I wonder if anyone really understands that retired city workers do not receive a lavish pension. Does anyone know that a retired city worker pays a portion of their health care already?

The City workers I am talking about are the ones who have had their hands in the cookie jar for years. Not a 9 to 5 person, not a secretary or a clerk or a garbage collector...the ones who have access to actual green money, like thug KK for example; Monica Conyers; Rayford Jackson;John Clark; DeDan Milton...need I go on?

Most retirees that I know, [[the working person, not an appointee, commissioner, chief, ex-mayor, clownsilperson) get just barely enough to live on. After 30, 35, or 40 years on a job, consistently, with no special "perks", with a promise from a City to provide medical care after retirement, with a promise to provide a pension, I think it's a deserved compensation...not an entitlement. Also, for those of you who are not aware of this, police and fire do not contribute to Social Security their entire working career so if they don't get a job after they retire to get the quarters needed to collect a very small social security check, they don't get one. Firefighters are forced to retire at age 60...you do the math.

All City workers are not angels believe me, but the majority of 70, 80 and 90 year old retirees who worked hard for the City deserve what was promissed, me included.

[jt1]

,me included.

Now we get to the meat of your argument. Everyone, creditors, current employees, citizens, taxpayers should get the short end of the stick but you shouldn't be harmed.

Let's pull all cops and firefighters off the streets so long as you don't lose any of your benefits. From your statement and previous posting it's pretty clear that you don't give two shits about the residents or the current employees as long as your precious pension is unharmed.

Thanks for making it much clearer for us.

[cla1945]

Now we get to the meat of your argument. Everyone, creditors, current employees, citizens, taxpayers should get the short end of the stick but you shouldn't be harmed.

Let's pull all cops and firefighters off the streets so long as you don't lose any of your benefits. From your statement and previous posting it's pretty clear that you don't give two shits about the residents or the current employees as long as your precious pension is unharmed.

Thanks for making it much clearer for us.

What? I can't be upset about my well earned pension? I'm not saying a thing about current employees losing their jobs. Hell, I've got a relative [[very close) who is a policeman, and another very close relative who is a Detroit firefighter. I've seen first hand the corruption in Detroit and I don't need you lecturing me about how I feel. I'm also not just talking about myself, I'm including 20,000 other retirees who are in the same boat. Let's put it this way jt1, we're all old, can't get another job now, and most younger people, probably you included feel we are throwaways and it doesn't matter that most retirees need healthcare, prescriptions, and be able to pay our bills.
You forget, we already put our time in, hundreds of years if you want to add it all up between us.
As far as caring about Detroit, Detroit was and will always be my "home". I love what it once was, certainly not what it's become. The residents and current employees deserve the best that they can get from an administration that hasn't given two shits about them or anyone else. Those are the people you need to rant at. Bottom line, Orr needs to keep his grubby hands off my pension, it's mine, I earned it!!!

[jt1]

What? I can't be upset about my well earned pension? I'm not saying a thing about current employees losing their jobs. Hell, I've got a relative [[very close) who is a policeman, and another very close relative who is a Detroit firefighter. I've seen first hand the corruption in Detroit and I don't need you lecturing me about how I feel. I'm also not just talking about myself, I'm including 20,000 other retirees who are in the same boat. Let's put it this way jt1, we're all old, can't get another job now, and most younger people, probably you included feel we are throwaways and it doesn't matter that most retirees need healthcare, prescriptions, and be able to pay our bills.
You forget, we already put our time in, hundreds of years if you want to add it all up between us.
As far as caring about Detroit, Detroit was and will always be my "home". I love what it once was, certainly not what it's become. The residents and current employees deserve the best that they can get from an administration that hasn't given two shits about them or anyone else. Those are the people you need to rant at. Bottom line, Orr needs to keep his grubby hands off my pension, it's mine, I earned it!!!

You're not willing to concede any of your pension but are asking for everyone else to take a hit. I understand yous position clearly.

As far as getting what you paid in. Typically retirees take more out of a pension fund then they put in. The fact that there are two retirees for every current employee makes it unsustainable.

There are four areas that there can be cuts:
1. Bondholders and other debtors. We all agree they should take a hit.
2. Current employees. They have already taken a major hit and will take another.
3. City services provided to the residents.
4. Retirees.

So who would you advocate take a hit and who shouldn't. The pain can't all be absorbed by [[1) so who of the remaining should get the hit or should all share in it.

I don't think your generation is throw away but I take exception to your generations attitude of 'screw everyone else but don't make me take a hit.' Retirees have made it clear that they care for themselves and everyone else can deal with the pain. Of course in this whole debacle the older generations are showing they don't give a damn about anyone else as long as their pension is untouched.

[jt1]

That said, I believe that the vast majority of retirees and current employees have worked hard and done their best for the city. I just take exception when one group feels they should be exempt from any pain.

[313WX]

You're not willing to concede any of your pension but are asking for everyone else to take a hit. I understand yous position clearly.

To be fair, he's not the only one on this forum who feels that way, but he's the most outspoken about it. But the way I see it, they can take a cut now and recoup SOME of what they're owed, or they can take the gamble where there's a distinct possibility of no taxpayers remaining in the city of Detroit to write a check to them in any amount due to additional tax raises/service cuts. Either way, half of city's budget going to debt service is unsustainable when emergency response times are 30 minutes, half of the streetlights are out and the city is littered with dilapidated properties.

[cla1945]

You're not willing to concede any of your pension but are asking for everyone else to take a hit. I understand yous position clearly.

As far as getting what you paid in. Typically retirees take more out of a pension fund then they put in. The fact that there are two retirees for every current employee makes it unsustainable.

There are four areas that there can be cuts:
1. Bondholders and other debtors. We all agree they should take a hit.
2. Current employees. They have already taken a major hit and will take another.
3. City services provided to the residents.
4. Retirees.

So who would you advocate take a hit and who shouldn't. The pain can't all be absorbed by [[1) so who of the remaining should get the hit or should all share in it.

I don't think your generation is throw away but I take exception to your generations attitude of 'screw everyone else but don't make me take a hit.' Retirees have made it clear that they care for themselves and everyone else can deal with the pain. Of course in this whole debacle the older generations are showing they don't give a damn about anyone else as long as their pension is untouched.

I'm not even sure what you're talking about. I don't think that I wrote in any of my posts that "current" employees should take a hit...they've already been cut to the bone, so I don't think I said that and if you can find anywhere I did say it, please show me. I never said the taxpayers in Detroit should take the hit either, they've already been dealt a very bad deal with poor services that the administration is responsible for.

The bondholders already know that they are not going to get paid back.

Orr should have cleaned house the minute he walked into the CAY building. The council is ineffective, is now and always has been. They are overpaid, have overpaid staff, cars that are given to them, gas provided, and sometimes drivers. All of this needs to go. City airport needs to be leased. Belle Isle needs to be leased. Chandler Park needs to be leased. Any city park that can be run by the State needs to go...believe me, they will get cleaned up, be patrolled, and kept safe from the thugs that have taken over Detroit.

There are many areas within the CAY building that can go, redundant departments, administrators for administrators; commanders, chiefs, and that's just mentioning a few....all this BEFORE you start messing with people's lives.

The "pain" needs to be absorbed by the fat at the top before they start cutting into the bone of the elderly. The "fat" at the top is who is now responsible for what is happening in Detroit. Commanders and chiefs at the Police Department don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. There is no accountability in that Department at all. Donald Austin, Fire Commissioner is useless. Read an article in Deadline Detroit about his visit to an injured firefighter a few weeks ago...you'll want to throw up because all he wanted to discuss was budget problems and how expensive it is to take care of an injured fireman. My generation doesn't have a "screw you" attitude. My generation is really beginning to resent the attitude that the younger generation has towards us...we are not a generation of feeling entitled, we are a generation who worked hard towards a goal. We persevered on thankless jobs, took many "hits" in salary and benefits for years to get something back from Detroit. That's not too much to ask for is it? Our pension is sacred, without it, thousands of us retirees will just fade away.

Watch BURN, the documentary about Detroit Firefighters..you'll get a pretty good perspective of what goes on within the CofD and how they handle problems.

[jt1]

I'm not even sure what you're talking about. I don't think that I wrote in any of my posts that "current" employees should take a hit...they've already been cut to the bone, so I don't think I said that and if you can find anywhere I did say it, please show me. I never said the taxpayers in Detroit should take the hit either, they've already been dealt a very bad deal with poor services that the administration is responsible for.

The bondholders already know that they are not going to get paid back.

Orr should have cleaned house the minute he walked into the CAY building. The council is ineffective, is now and always has been. They are overpaid, have overpaid staff, cars that are given to them, gas provided, and sometimes drivers. All of this needs to go. City airport needs to be leased. Belle Isle needs to be leased. Chandler Park needs to be leased. Any city park that can be run by the State needs to go...believe me, they will get cleaned up, be patrolled, and kept safe from the thugs that have taken over Detroit.

There are many areas within the CAY building that can go, redundant departments, administrators for administrators; commanders, chiefs, and that's just mentioning a few....all this BEFORE you start messing with people's lives.

The "pain" needs to be absorbed by the fat at the top before they start cutting into the bone of the elderly. The "fat" at the top is who is now responsible for what is happening in Detroit. Commanders and chiefs at the Police Department don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. There is no accountability in that Department at all. Donald Austin, Fire Commissioner is useless. Read an article in Deadline Detroit about his visit to an injured firefighter a few weeks ago...you'll want to throw up because all he wanted to discuss was budget problems and how expensive it is to take care of an injured fireman. My generation doesn't have a "screw you" attitude. My generation is really beginning to resent the attitude that the younger generation has towards us...we are not a generation of feeling entitled, we are a generation who worked hard towards a goal. We persevered on thankless jobs, took many "hits" in salary and benefits for years to get something back from Detroit. That's not too much to ask for is it? Our pension is sacred, without it, thousands of us retirees will just fade away.

SO you honestly believe that the finances of the city can be corrected just through bond holders taking a hit, leasing/selling assets and re-structuring at the top? Sorry, just not attainable.

As for generations.....we'll agree to disagree. Your generation did work hard however your generation will be the first to ever whose children [[or grandchildren depending upon your age) have less opportunity and a lower quality of life than you. Clearly, there is some fault at a generational level. That was started withe the pensions being handed out in the fifties. You may not have a 'screw you' attitude towards younger generations but the decisions and actions of your generation has certainly hampered future generations.

Of course we are speaking about generations, not individuals.

[313WX]

Chandler Park needs to be leased.

Isn't Chandler Park a Wayne County park?

[cla1945]

SO you honestly believe that the finances of the city can be corrected just through bond holders taking a hit, leasing/selling assets and re-structuring at the top? Sorry, just not attainable.

As for generations.....we'll agree to disagree. Your generation did work hard however your generation will be the first to ever whose children [[or grandchildren depending upon your age) have less opportunity and a lower quality of life than you. Clearly, there is some fault at a generational level. That was started withe the pensions being handed out in the fifties. You may not have a 'screw you' attitude towards younger generations but the decisions and actions of your generation has certainly hampered future generations.

Of course we are speaking about generations, not individuals.

Good, we will agree to disagree. I am truly sorry that my grandchildren will face a very bleak future in this United States. Growing up at a time when the world seemed like [[maybe it wasn't by some standards) the perfect world was what I did. A high school graduate could get a job with the City of Detroit, not make a lot of money like private industry paid, but we knew the work was pretty steady, layoffs were almost non-existant, you received a promotion when it was time and you worked your way up... and you did a good days work for a fair pay. I signed papers that Detroit provided me that insured my future pension and healthcare. I also signed paperwork stating that I would stay in the City and I did my entire career. I would still be in my home today had I not been run out by drug dealers and thugs who took over the neighborhood and wanted us to be either dead or out...I chose to leave when I retired. I did what was expected of me. I risked my life and limb for many of those years protecting and serving the citizens of Detroit. Today, I expect Detroit to live up to its promise. It is possible, the money is there, everyone on the 13th floor of that building knows it's there...it's just a matter of what they want to keep, what they want to get rid of. Unfortunately, it seems that the older folks don't stand a chance in this world, from threatening us about our pensions, to taking our healthcare, eliminating prescription coverage when we need it the most right now.
Remember, all you younger people out there that are 35, 40 or so...your day is coming...you'll blink your eyes and suddenly it's upon you.

[jt1]

Good, we will agree to disagree. I am truly sorry that my grandchildren will face a very bleak future in this United States. Growing up at a time when the world seemed like [[maybe it wasn't by some standards) the perfect world was what I did. A high school graduate could get a job with the City of Detroit, not make a lot of money like private industry paid, but we knew the work was pretty steady, layoffs were almost non-existant, you received a promotion when it was time and you worked your way up... and you did a good days work for a fair pay. I signed papers that Detroit provided me that insured my future pension and healthcare. I also signed paperwork stating that I would stay in the City and I did my entire career. I would still be in my home today had I not been run out by drug dealers and thugs who took over the neighborhood and wanted us to be either dead or out...I chose to leave when I retired. I did what was expected of me. I risked my life and limb for many of those years protecting and serving the citizens of Detroit. Today, I expect Detroit to live up to its promise. It is possible, the money is there, everyone on the 13th floor of that building knows it's there...it's just a matter of what they want to keep, what they want to get rid of. Unfortunately, it seems that the older folks don't stand a chance in this world, from threatening us about our pensions, to taking our healthcare, eliminating prescription coverage when we need it the most right now.
Remember, all you younger people out there that are 35, 40 or so...your day is coming...you'll blink your eyes and suddenly it's upon you.

I guess where we disagree is about the money being there. I don't believe [[nor does Kevyn Orr) that it is there. We probably won't agree since we see things very differently on this exceptionally key point.

[JohnnyFreddy]

I guess where we disagree is about the money being there. I don't believe [[nor does Kevyn Orr) that it is there. We probably won't agree since we see things very differently on this exceptionally key point.

jt1....you are meanheaded, stubbornheaded, unbending, and most importantly....WRONG !!! Pensioners are supposed to take a hit WHENEVER the newer generation decides their pockets being filled with stolen City money, THEIR futures more important, so they graft everything in their power, do it with attitude, act indignant when they're found out, and expect to come out on top anyway. THAT'S why the pensioners should "DO THEIR PART???" I don't think so...in fact HELL NO !!! I don't work for the City Of Detroit, but I live here... I see the corruption...I've seen the smiling idiots flashing their fancy cloths and cars and destroying any good will the Citizens have for each other, by creating racial tensions, widening the divides between the City and the Suburbs.....all to mask their illegal activities, and then demand the City pay for their legal council when they are found out....and the law suits against the City, for injuries sustained on the unkempt streets, the muggings, rapes and murders, because of a corrupt and mostly underfunded Police Force. The slow response time for other emergency services...ALL this is supposed to be heaped on the backs of the pensioners?!!!! Are you crazy? Put into a 401 ???? Guess how many people I KNOW who have gotten screwed out of their "Protected" 401 accounts ? I could go on ALL DAY and jump from point to point...bottom line, Kevin Orr is shuffling and re-shuffling monies around, and he could re-shuffle his ass away from the pension fund.

[TexasT]

Unfortunately, it seems that the older folks don't stand a chance in this world, from threatening us about our pensions, to taking our healthcare, eliminating prescription coverage when we need it the most right now.
Remember, all you younger people out there that are 35, 40 or so...your day is coming...you'll blink your eyes and suddenly it's upon you.

I don't know about 35 or 40, but I wouldn't expect much sympathy from the crowd younger than that. The life and benefits you are so worried about losing were never even an option for us. Rampant student loan debt [[that's not bailed out like your 401Ks and mortgages, hell it's not even dischargeable and we keep getting fucked on interest rates), high unemployment [[worst for us in 30 years), high taxes coming our way in the future...the things you currently covet are a pipe dream to us. As someone mentioned, we are the first generation in the history of this country to be worse off than the previous generation, largely because of decisions made before we could even vote. So I'm not sure you're going to find the requisite sympathy by appealing to the younger generations. These shitty economic conditions are primarily all we've known for our working lives and the outlook doesn't look so bright. So our time isn't "coming" - it's already here. I do feel bad for the pensioners but not any worse than I feel for everyone else who is also in this situation. We are have to suffer. Every one of us.