Plans unveiled for $650M Red Wings arena, entertainment district in Detroit

[Bham1982]

If we hired a demographics research firm to pinpoint all 100k+ households in the region, and then factor in distance from household to Palace vs. household to Downtown, I'm willing to bet that the Palace is a more convenient venue.

Really the Pointes are the only area where you will get a very large number of middle-to-upper class households more convenient to downtown vs. the Palace. Northville is probably a wash. Grosse Ile is closer to downtown but tiny.

All the other upper middle to fancy areas, from Novi to the Bloomfields to Oakland Twp., are closer to the Palace.

[Bham1982]

There are 1 million people in Oakland County and 700,000 in the City of Detroit. That's not "far more people" [[and it doesn't include the large portions of Wayne, Oakland, and Macomb Counties that are closer to downtown than Auburn Hills).

There are over 1.2 million residents in Oakland County, and probably fewer than 700k in Detroit. I would say that's a pretty big difference.

But the relative difference isn't with population per se, but with population deemed desirable to event promotors. Oakland County is the wealth center of the region.

[Khorasaurus]

There are over 1.2 million residents in Oakland County, and probably fewer than 700k in Detroit. I would say that's a pretty big difference.

But the relative difference isn't with population per se, but with population deemed desirable to event promotors. Oakland County is the wealth center of the region.

And the Palace isn't convenient to all of that wealth. [[Ask someone from Farmington Hills or Novi how hard it is to get to the Palace). Plus, rich people aren't the only ones who go to sporting events and concerts.

[Bham1982]

And the Palace isn't convenient to all of that wealth. [[Ask someone from Farmington Hills or Novi how hard it is to get to the Palace). Plus, rich people aren't the only ones who go to sporting events and concerts.

Novi and Farmington Hills are closer to the Palace than to Downtown.

And it doesn't matter. What matters is that the Palace is a national model, and has few rivals for attendance. If it's so incredibly inconvenient, as you claim [[right off I-75, and 10-15 minutes from the region's wealth center), then why is it so damn successful?

This last point is key. Arena economics are heavily weighted towards suite revenues. The Palace has incredibly succesful suites, and the fact that they're 15 minutes from Bloomfield is very important.

[Khorasaurus]

Novi and Farmington Hills are closer to the Palace than to Downtown.

And it doesn't matter. What matters is that the Palace is a national model, and has few rivals for attendance. If it's so incredibly inconvenient, as you claim [[right off I-75, and 10-15 minutes from the region's wealth center), then why is it so damn successful?

This last point is key. Arena economics are heavily weighted towards suite revenues. The Palace has incredibly succesful suites, and the fact that they're 15 minutes from Bloomfield is very important.

Do Ford Field and Comerica lag in suite revenue? Would those same Bloomfield residents buy Pistons suites if they played Downtown? And how do you respond to the Wings outdrawing the Pistons this past year by 6,000 people per game? And the Pistons being lumped with places like Sacramento in terms of NBA attendance?

As for Novi and Farmington Hills, it isn't about distance, it's about how easy it is to drive there. Downtown is a quick shot down the Lodge or I-96. Auburn Hills requires a long slog up Telegraph, then over on Square Lake, then up I-75. And if you Google Maps the distance from various places in the two communities to Auburn Hills or Downtown, they come up with similar times [[without traffic). Which is to say that even though Downtown is further as the crow flies, it is easier to get to.

[TexasT]

And the Palace isn't convenient to all of that wealth. [[Ask someone from Farmington Hills or Novi how hard it is to get to the Palace). Plus, rich people aren't the only ones who go to sporting events and concerts.

Yeah I'm not sure the Romneys are lining up to see Ke$ha or Pitbull.

[48009]

Another point: While the Palace is successful financially, the Pistons were 28th [[third from last) in the NBA in attendance last year, ahead of just Sacramento and New Orleans. They were dead last in attendance as a percentage of capacity, with just 67% of seats sold.

Now, a large part of that is because the team sucks. But people will go see a bad team if they can make a fun evening out of it. They won't go see a bad team if the rest of their evening is spent in traffic trying to get out of a parking lot.

Edit: By contrast, the Wings were third in the NHL in attendance despite having one of their worst seasons in decades [[albeit better than the Pistons). They drew about 6,000 fans more per game than the Pistons did this year. And that's playing in JLA, which is objectively a dump.

This may not be "PC" but the demographic of Pistons games has turned off MANY that used to go. We stopped buying season tickets because of a lack of team success, but more importantly, the crowd turned to trash the past few years.

[Bham1982]

Yeah I'm not sure the Romneys are lining up to see Ke$ha or Pitbull.

But their kids probably are. Who do you think occupies those suites during teeny bopper concerts? It's the kids from rich families.

[downtownguy]

Another reason the Palace is so successful financially, is because Ilitch has basically conceded all events to them without competition. I'm not saying he has to go toe to toe with the Palace on the highest profile events, but certainly there are some events that would locate at the Joe if they were courted. But Ilitch has his sweetheart $25,000/month lease with the city which is so cheap relatively speaking that he keeps JLA for his private use. Remember when Karmanos owned the Junior Wings and wanted to use JLA as their home arena? But Ilitch wouldn't lease to him, so Karmanos built his own arena in Plymouth.

When JLA was built and Norris owned the team, the city gave them such a good deal so the arena would be active as many days of the year as possible. The ripple effect of having more events booked at the Joe all those years would have provided a lot more jobs and income for restaurants, parking lots, etc., not to mention additional tax revenue for the city.

[TexasT]

But their kids probably are. Who do you think occupies those suites during teeny bopper concerts? It's the kids from rich families.

Don't lie...did you have to Google Ke$ha?

[southen]

i lived in rochester and it would easily take an hour to get home from the game, how does that tie into convenience?. not everyone may want to make a night of it, but i bet if the place is packed a decent enough percentage of people would have gone to a restaurant before the game or a bar afterwards if it were more conveniently located to those establishments. want proof? walk around downtown before and after games, everything is packed, so im going to use that as a barometer unless of course wealthy people in oakland county tend to do the opposite...

i will tell you right now, a new state of the art arena in a vibrant entertainment district is going to take business away from the palace. its easy to be the best when your competition is an ugly grey box with no suites and poor acoustics. thats not blind detroit love either, its common sense. dont believe me? ask yourself, if the silverdome was still available for concerts, do you think it would get more shows than ford field if competing for the same events?

[Detroitdave]

I like the Verizon Center look for an arena on Woodward

[emu steve]

Let me offer a 'compromise':

Hockey will be at Ilitch's arena. Given.

Some concerts, etc will be at the Palace and some at Iltich's arena.

[[let the market sort that one out).

Pistons: I'd like to see demographic research on season ticket holders, including those held by corporations.

[48009]

What buildings are these--any historical significance? They're in mlive's article on the new arena.

[emu steve]

I like the Verizon Center look for an arena on Woodward

I'm wondering what would look best for Woodward Ave.

In D.C. building design isn't difficult - make something like Nationals Park have a limestone look which is so common in D.C. [[government buildings).

I'm trying to think what an arena should look like with townhouses across the street.

That will be challenging.

Verizon Center looks like a very large building which was dropped in a vacant city block [[Verizon Center isn't much larger than a single city block) surrounded by other large buildings.

The new arena will have a freeway bordering on the south, townhouses on the east, probably a big office/retail building to the north and God knows what to the west? [[some rehabbed hotel buildings????).

My guess the hardest part is making something which doesn't conflict with the townhouses.

As someone mentioned in an earlier post, I hope there are very wide sidewalks and the arena is set back from the street.

I could see an easement to the property along the west side of Woodward and building a curb [[taxi/bus) lane to further move the arena off of Woodward.

I think, Iltich, will design the office building to the north so that it fits with the arena.

I wouldn't want to be the architect!!

[48009]

My guess the hardest part is making something which doesn't conflict with the townhouses.

Lol. Yea, I'm sure they're reeeeeeally worried about those crappy townhouses.

[Jason]

To be honest yeah, I think you just have to ignore the townhouses. They're so out of character with the surroundings, and while I wouldn't expect them to be demolished any time soon I think they're much less permanent than the arena and whatever other new buildings come from this development.

Or maybe the trees in front of them will grow really big and you won't be able to see the townhouses anymore.

[JDKeepsmiling]

I think that bothers me most about the Palace is the fact that it is all alone sitting is a sea of parking. It takes 15 minutes JUST TO LEAVE THE PARKING LOT, after walking 10 to get there. Then if I want to do something afterwards there is......nothing. I live in Plymouth, and it is vastly quicker for me to go Downtown, as there are approximately 100 routes in and out. Plus there is tons to do down there after a game [[we often go to Harry's).

Only bad thing about the arena is that it is going in my normal parking area [[on the street) for Tiger and Detroit City Football Club games. it would bre great to see those two monolithic buildings restored though, they hover over that entire area.

[emu steve]

I think that bothers me most about the Palace is the fact that it is all alone sitting is a sea of parking. It takes 15 minutes JUST TO LEAVE THE PARKING LOT, after walking 10 to get there. Then if I want to do something afterwards there is......nothing. I live in Plymouth, and it is vastly quicker for me to go Downtown, as there are approximately 100 routes in and out. Plus there is tons to do down there after a game [[we often go to Harry's).

Only bad thing about the arena is that it is going in my normal parking area [[on the street) for Tiger and Detroit City Football Club games. it would bre great to see those two monolithic buildings restored though, they hover over that entire area.

One thing I love about Comerica is how easy it is to get in/out.

AFter a game, I just hit Cass and take it to WSU and on the westbound 94 at Trumbull.

No traffic.

Coming to Comerica, same idea: Get off 94 at Trumbull and take Woodward to the surface parking at Woodward around Sibley.

I'll call that the 'Western Route".

Those who live other directions have their own routes on freeways is they wish.

The traffic goes in so many directions via so many freeways there are plenty of options.

I can leave Dearborn, for example, and be parked in less than 30 minutes.

In D.C. I have to drive to a subway station and then take a 30 - 40 minute subway ride to Nationals Park.

Detroit is quicker and more fun.

[casscorridor]

there are some crazy freaking people on this forum...

Novi and Farmington Hills are closer to the Palace than to Downtown.

WRONG!!!!! They are almost the same distance. source: google maps

Novi to Palace of Auburn Hills - 28.9 Miles / 35 min
Novi to Woodward/Henry St - 27.6 Miles / 29 min
WINNER: DETROIT

Farmington Hills to Palace of Auburn Hills - 28.5 Miles / 35 min
Farmington Hills to Woodward/Henry St - 27.2 Miles / 30 min
WINNER: DETROIT

Some other points of interest:

Royal Oak to Palace of Auburn Hills - 21.4 Miles / 25 Min
Royal Oak to Woodward/Henry St - 13.2 Miles / 19 min
WINNER: DETROIT

Mt. Clemens to Palace of Auburn Hills - 25.0 Miles / 36 Min
Mt Clemens to Woodward/Henry St - 25.5 Miles / 31 Min
WINNER: DETROIT [[time only)

Birmingham to Palace of Auburn Hills - 12.5 Miles / 19 min
Birmingham to Woodward/Henry St - 22.2 Miles / 28 min
WINNER: PALACE OF AUBURN HILLS


Ahhh.... so now it all makes sense! Closer to most people in the region = closer to Birmingham. Hahahahha what a delusional little man... and none of this even figures in sitting in traffic, which the Palace is known for.

[emu steve]

Since we are hitting a lot of thing in this thread:

I wonder what will happen to the land at the NE corner of Woodward/Alfred?

That is the land adjacent the northern end of the townhouses [[opposite the new arena site).

Wonder the zoning?

Would it make a nice condo or apartment development?

[[with M-1 at the front door it would be convenient for those working in the CBD or going to school at WSU).

[48009]

there are some crazy freaking people on this forum...



WRONG!!!!! They are almost the same distance. source: google maps

Novi to Palace of Auburn Hills - 28.9 Miles / 35 min
Novi to Woodward/Henry St - 27.6 Miles / 29 min
WINNER: DETROIT

Farmington Hills to Palace of Auburn Hills - 28.5 Miles / 35 min
Farmington Hills to Woodward/Henry St - 27.2 Miles / 30 min
WINNER: DETROIT

Some other points of interest:

Royal Oak to Palace of Auburn Hills - 21.4 Miles / 25 Min
Royal Oak to Woodward/Henry St - 13.2 Miles / 19 min
WINNER: DETROIT

Mt. Clemens to Palace of Auburn Hills - 25.0 Miles / 36 Min
Mt Clemens to Woodward/Henry St - 25.5 Miles / 31 Min
WINNER: DETROIT [[time only)

Birmingham to Palace of Auburn Hills - 12.5 Miles / 19 min
Birmingham to Woodward/Henry St - 22.2 Miles / 28 min
WINNER: PALACE OF AUBURN HILLS


Ahhh.... so now it all makes sense! Closer to most people in the region = closer to Birmingham. Hahahahha what a delusional little man... and none of this even figures in sitting in traffic, which the Palace is known for.

I mean this in the nicest possible way, get a life.

[ccal]

I mean this in the nicest possible way, get a life.

Classy......

[TexasT]

I mean this in the nicest possible way, get a life.

YEAH! Quit adding discussion to this discussion board!

[hortonz]

How about this for name for the new arena? We'll call it "The Ilitch Family Corporate Welfare Arena For the City Formerly Known As America's Motor City But Now Known As Dead Broke Detroit."