Plans unveiled for $650M Red Wings arena, entertainment district in Detroit

[canuck]

THAT is what my taxes should be paying for. There is NO REASON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH I should be paying for this incontinent old fuck's money-making venture. You want some freaking entertainment? Yeah, so do the teenagers around here. The rec centers are all closed, and so are the libraries.

Guess what, people work at libraries too. Maybe if teachers and firefighters had some extra cash and didn't have to buy their own supplies they could pump that money into the economy. I'm sure they'd be content just watch the game at a bar once in a while.

Fuck this. This is stupid. I hope he dies and takes his dog of a wife with him before this monstrosity is ever completed. At least that old fuck can't take his money to hell with him.

Something in your tone of voice tells me you don't like the guy.

[Khorasaurus]

What a joke. One of the richest men in Michigan needs to take money from education to make his own playground.

This is a little misleading. The money is coming from the DDA, which gets all incremental property tax dollars from the downtown area, regardless of what the millage was originally for. So that money was always going for "downtown development." It would never have been for schools.

[Gistok]

The biggest mystery to me is... after learning 2 years ago that the $13 million per year public figure was already a given... why any forum member who has halfway paid attention here would still be outraged??

A more likely emotion is one of being underwhelmed...

I to hope that the Eddystone and Harbor Lights Buildings get saved and rehabbed. I also hope that after this underwhelming announcement... that the small apartments along the Fisher Fwy that were recently emptied... are saved and reused for regular priced apartments. More empty lots are not a good idea for Midtown... especially now that we know this land will NOT be an arena.

Funny thing about this announcement though... it doesn't exactly leave one excited... not at all...

[Scottathew]

Will the Joe get torn down or just remain vacant? I saw a concert there recently and it sounded SO horrible. I imagine the only reason concerts are thrown there is because it's much cheaper alternative to the Palace?

Cobo expansion.

[Scottathew]

If Illitch is serious about making a positive impact he'll put mixed commercial\residential on Woodward between Elizabeth on Montclaim and then extend it all the way up to the new arena with streetwall shops and low-rise buildings with housing.

If this is done right we might even be able to consider Woodward over I-75 for one of those capped freeway deals where they put businesses over top of the freeway.

[emu steve]

This is a little misleading. The money is coming from the DDA, which gets all incremental property tax dollars from the downtown area, regardless of what the millage was originally for. So that money was always going for "downtown development." It would never have been for schools.

Another post I agree with.

I saw reference to this in an article [[think it was mlive.com).

Let me digress for a second and show the parallels to what happened in D.C. for Nationals Park.

In D.C. they developed a plan which had multiple funding sources to pay off the debt.

1). Taxes on tickets, concessions, etc. etc. [[nothing surprising here).

2). The business created a tax zone and taxed themselves.

After the outcry from those who wanted the money [[WHAT MONEY?????) spent on schools, etc. [[let me explain this later) the stadium was built.

What has happened?

The income from those sources EXCEEDED the debt service and now the business folks are complaining that D.C. is keeping the excess funds [[for the general fund) instead of paying off the debt early.

Bottom line:

D.C. got a beautiful stadium [[to keep their Nats), tremendous amount of development around the stadium AND D.C. IS MAKING MONEY ON THE STADIUM [[+ cash flow - income > expenditures).

And money for schools: The taxes the business agreed to tax themselves was SOLELY for the stadium. NO stadium; NO Tax. and NO extra money for schools.

This isn't EITHER OR.

The stadium did not take a nickle from schools and if the stadium hadn't been built there wouldn't be another nickle for schools.

[emu steve]

That's always been my hope that that was the residential component to all of this.

I would think it would be stupid to UNNECESSARILY tear down buildings which can be rehabbed.

No reason for them to go.

[nain rouge]

I say it's good news overall. If you don't believe in the spin-off effects of stadiums, go visit downtown Toledo. It's amazing what effect Fifth Third Field has had, and that just houses a Triple-A club. It's birthed a somewhat vibrant entertainment district in what is otherwise one of the most underutilized downtowns I've ever seen for a city over 250,000.

I think we forget or take for granted the effect Comerica Park and Ford Field have had on downtown Detroit. By placing the Wings' new arena nearby, it should have a real synergistic effect that may very well attract the Pistons one day, too.

Sure, in an ideal world, we'd be like Manhattan and scoff at a stadium taking up such valuable real estate, but in an area that has suffered so terribly from abandonment, stadiums are a good idea. You need to attract people somehow, and unless you can find a couple more Dan Gilberts, this is about the only way I can see Detroit accomplishing that.

[emu steve]

I say it's good news overall. If you don't believe in the spin-off effects of stadiums, go visit downtown Toledo. It's amazing what effect Fifth Third Field has had, and that just houses a Triple-A club. It's birthed a somewhat vibrant entertainment district in what is otherwise one of the most underutilized downtowns I've ever seen for a city over 250,000.

I think we forget or take for granted the effect Comerica Park and Ford Field have had on downtown Detroit. By placing the Wings' new arena nearby, it should have a real synergistic effect that may very well attract the Pistons one day, too.

Sure, in an ideal world, we'd be like Manhattan and scoff at a stadium taking up such valuable real estate, but in an area that has suffered so terribly from abandonment, stadiums are a good idea. You need to attract people somehow, and unless you can find a couple more Dan Gilberts, this is about the only way I can see Detroit accomplishing that.

Excellent points!

I would like to take this a step further.

IF no Ilitch [[Tigers, Wings, Fox, and Lions because of Comerica) there wouldn't be a Gilbert.

[nain rouge]

I will agree, though, that the TIF funding involving school money and such is shady, but at the same time, that's how American politics and business works. Sure, you can find some notable exceptions in more affluent metros; however, I'd say this is par for the course for struggling cities.

Honestly, any businessperson worth his/her salt is going to say, "Look, Detroit is one of the most violent cities in America, has a plummeting population, and is facing imminent municipal bankruptcy. Still, I'd like to invest. What are you going to do to convince me this is worth the risk?" Naturally, then, the city is going to have to offer some juicy incentives, such as TIFs, or risk losing the investment. If you play hardball [[such as telling Mike Illitch to fund it all himself), you'll simple get another Palace of Auburn Hills.

I don't like it any more than the next person, but what do you want to happen? If you really want change, then maybe vote for a politician that isn't Democrat or Republican. Otherwise, it's sour grapes on your part and nothing more. At least this way, Detroit gets to collect city income tax from all the new retail spaces and offices, which will probably amount to a lot more than whatever comes in from Gratiot & French.

[rb336]

I gets rid of one of the biggest gaps between downtown and midtown.

So what happens when the Lions, Wings and Tigers all play on the same day? [[tigers late in world series, early wings game, etc.)

[canuck]

Excellent points!

I would like to take this a step further.

IF no Ilitch [[Tigers, Wings, Fox, and Lions because of Comerica) there wouldn't be a Gilbert.

Good point. Let them play off each other, this is what living in a capitalist system does to cities healthy and not so healthy. I welcome the new stadium because it will spur new development and a new sense of belonging to Detroit on a regional scale.

I wish a genius type could invent a "just add water and bake scheme" where you could replace the fucking parking lots in our downtowns in a flash with something worthwhile.

[401don]

I think most of us are pleased we're getting a new arena especially at the chosen site. I just wish Ilitch for once would be honest enough to say "We're asking for gov't financial help to build the arena and we fully anticipate, based on recent trends, it will lead to substantial spin-off development in the form of housing and retail in the surrounding area." Instead he tries to package the arena as part of a broader proposal and fully expects the casual observer will ignore the details and assume it`s all inclusive. Don`t treat the taxpayers like idiots. You haven`t earned the privilege by being elected.

[Zug]

After seeing the map of the entertainment zone, it should be the "Olympia Entertainment Zone." Comerica, Foxtown, new Red Wings arena, and Motor City Casino would all be tied together. I think they just may be trying to compete with Dan Gilbert.

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid...5&source=embed

By the way, I wasn't thrilled to hear that public money would go towards the project. However, seeing that it's money earmarked for developments anyway, I feel differently. My only question would be whether the money could be spent on other things. Unless I'm misunderstanding, the articles make it sound like ALL of the DDA money will go towards the development. If it's the massive project they make it sound like, I could see it justified I guess.

[48009]

If you play hardball [[such as telling Mike Illitch to fund it all himself), you'll simple get another Palace of Auburn Hills.

So we'd get...a wildly successful arena in a location that's more convenient for 90% of fans, w/o risk of bums and crime? [[;

[Khorasaurus]

So we'd get...a wildly successful arena in a location that's more convenient for 90% of fans, w/o risk of bums and crime? [[;

The Palace isn't convenient to anyone. It's hard to get to even from most of Oakland County. My company gives away Pistons tickets as a perk to clients. Our Downriver and Monroe County clients WILL NOT TAKE FREE TICKETS because it is too hard to get to the games [[also because the team sucks, admittedly).

The Palace is literally in garbage dump and is across the street from an abandoned gas station. It is impossible to get into and out of before and after events.

It's nice inside, but it's getting to be further and further from state of the art. If owning the Pistons didn't also mean owning the arena, they'd be either making a deal to play in the new midtown arena or playing in Seattle.

[wolverine]

I hear Mike is going to use the same interior design firm. Pee Wee's Playhouse Inc.

ohh nooooooooo!

[emu steve]

I gets rid of one of the biggest gaps between downtown and midtown.

So what happens when the Lions, Wings and Tigers all play on the same day? [[tigers late in world series, early wings game, etc.)

George Jackson probably throws a big party.

Seriously, I wonder about Tigers parking during the time when the surface parking on Woodward is cleared but before a parking garage is built.

All of those parking spots on Woodward from the Fisher to around Temple will be gone.

I assume folks will just park behind the Fox.

[emu steve]

The biggest mystery to me is... after learning 2 years ago that the $13 million per year public figure was already a given... why any forum member who has halfway paid attention here would still be outraged??

A more likely emotion is one of being underwhelmed...

I to hope that the Eddystone and Harbor Lights Buildings get saved and rehabbed. I also hope that after this underwhelming announcement... that the small apartments along the Fisher Fwy that were recently emptied... are saved and reused for regular priced apartments. More empty lots are not a good idea for Midtown... especially now that we know this land will NOT be an arena.

Funny thing about this announcement though... it doesn't exactly leave one excited... not at all...

I was excited that an arena will be built and WHERE it will be built.

As far as the other development, I try to keep things in perspective. Can't announce a plan to build 10 new office/retail buildings, thousands of new housing units, etc. etc.

In my experience that isn't how this type of development occurs.

Build the core [[e.g., the arena) and what is needed or supported by the arena and then the demand is created for things around the arena and development spins-off adjacent to the arena.

It is not the development equivalent of the 'big bang' theory, going from 'nothing to something vast'.

I see what was announced yesterday as simply a big piece in a big puzzle.

M-1 rail will be another piece.

Dan Gilbert is buying a bunch of small pieces.

[Zacha341]

Could that happen? I'm not into sports but it seems baseball goes on forever re. how long their season goes...

So what happens when the Lions, Wings and Tigers all play on the same day? [[tigers late in world series, early wings game, etc.)

[emu steve]

Could that happen? I'm not into sports but it seems baseball goes on forever re. how long their season goes...

The regular season ends at the end of September/1st days of October.

The World Series ends very late October.

Sports seasons are getting longer and more overlap.

THIS season the Lions have home games on Oct 20 and 27.

Those games could conflict with the World Series very easily.

[Bham1982]

Let me digress for a second and show the parallels to what happened in D.C. for Nationals Park.

There are no parallels between Detroit and DC. They couldn't have more different economic and land use norms.

In D.C. they developed a plan which had multiple funding sources to pay off the debt.

Yeah, they spent $700 million in taxpayer subsidies, primarily TIF and PILOT monies [[so basically property taxes).

The income from those sources EXCEEDED the debt service and now the business folks are complaining that D.C. is keeping the excess funds [[for the general fund) instead of paying off the debt early.

Which is fine, if true, but still means DC taxpayers paid $700 million for a baseball park, instead of, say $700 million on schools. The fact that the debt service is being paid off is nice, but doesn't affect the initial subsidy. The "excess funds" are the property taxes that would have been collected anyway if there were no stadium.

D.C. got a beautiful stadium [[to keep their Nats), tremendous amount of development around the stadium AND D.C. IS MAKING MONEY ON THE STADIUM [[+ cash flow - income > expenditures).

DC is not making money on the stadium. They're paying off the debt service. And the development has nothing to do with the stadium. All the office buildings were built in that area because of the massive expansion of the federal govt., which feeds office space needs in Central DC. If anything, a baseball park would be a hinderance to office development.

And money for schools: The taxes the business agreed to tax themselves was SOLELY for the stadium. NO stadium; NO Tax. and NO extra money for schools.

DC diverted $700 million in taxpayer dollars to the stadium, all of which could have been spent on something else, such as schools. Property taxes would obviously still be collected on all the new office buildings, even if there were no stadium. If anything, you would probably have more property tax revenue, because a prime space for offices wouldn't be wasted on a baseball field and accompanying parking.

[Bham1982]

The Palace isn't convenient to anyone. It's hard to get to even from most of Oakland County.

Why would an arena right of the freeway, smack dam in in the middle of the state's economic and wealth center, be "hard to get to" or "not convenient to anyone".

It's certainly convenient to more corporations, and more upper-income households than an arena located downtown. There's wealth in all directions from the Palace, and in no directions from downtown.

[esp1986]

If this location is correct, that could mean that the Eddystone and Harbor Light buildings could be saved. Hotels perhaps?

That's my inkling. There is supposed to be a hotel development as part of this. No better place for a hotel than, say, a hotel.

[Hypestyles]

how many "real" jobs would this generate, beyond the construction phase?