Eight Southern states, organized by a MI research group, try to relocate R&D in South

[Newdetroit]

Eight Southern states, organized by a Michigan research group, are forming a coalition to encourage overseas automakers and suppliers to locate r&d centers in the Southeast.

The effort, called the Southern Automotive Research Agenda, hopes to attract engineering talent to support automakers and suppliers doing business in Alabama, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Tennessee, South Carolina, Georgia and North Carolina. Texas and Florida may join the group.
The South has attracted a large share of transplant assembly plants in recent decades. An organized effort to win more r&d work would increase the South's competitiveness for high-paying auto jobs and fend off Mexico, which has attracted a number of assembly plants.
Leading the effort is the Center for Automotive Research, which is based in Ann Arbor, Mich. On March 12, the center will hold an organizational meeting in Washington, D.C.
Jay Baron, the center's president, says the coalition is intended as a counterweight to Mexico, which has attracted considerable investment from automakers and suppliers.
"We want the engineers to be here," Baron said. "These technicians and engineers are higher-end jobs."
Southeast Michigan, with its pool of engineering talent, has been a magnet for r&d centers built by foreign automakers such as Toyota, Nissan and Hyundai.
Michigan not happy
However, the plan is drawing criticism locally.
"It's a wake-up call," said Tom Manganello, a Detroit attorney and board member for MichAuto, a statewide industry association looking to attract development in Michigan. "We need to get more focused on what we have and how we're going to keep it and how we're going to grow it or we're going to lose it."
Manganello also is the brother of former BorgWarner Inc. CEO Tim Manganello, who is retiring as executive chairman of the supplier next month.
Doug Smith, senior vice president for business and community development for the Michigan Economic Development Corp., said the organization is not happy with the coalition idea but understands that CAR is not solely a Michigan-based group and has an international focus.
"We do see it as a threat," Smith said.
He said 75 percent of automotive r&d is done in Michigan.
"We don't take it lightly in terms of holding onto it," Smith said. "It means we need to redouble our efforts to keep them here."
Manganello said the plan is to steal away Michigan's more than 330 automotive r&d centers.
"The automotive epicenter for r&d is Michigan, and these are the highest-paying and most permanent jobs," he said. "Don't think the Southern states aren't licking their chops to get what we have."
Competition with Mexico
But Baron says the coalition does not intend to lure existing r&d centers away from Michigan and other Midwest states.
"The competition is with Mexico, not the North," Baron said. "We do not promote the idea that anybody should move from the North to the South. We are trying to make the pie bigger."
In an interview with Automotive News, Baron said the coalition would have three priorities:
1. Coordinate activities of engineering schools so Southern universities avoid overlapping research.
2. Provide expertise to economic developers to make their regions more competitive.
3. Identify the needs of automakers and Tier 1 suppliers, then help the Southern states provide those resources.
Member institutions could help provide resources for product development, manufacturing engineers, whatever a company might need.
For example, if BMW needs more technicians to fix robots in Spartanburg, the German automaker might get some help from other companies in the region.
Or it might consult Clemson University's International Center for Automotive Research in nearby Greenville, S.C.
That facility has attracted a dozen automotive suppliers, and it gets financial support from the state. In fact, South Carolina Commerce Secretary Robert Hitt is a former BMW executive.
Clemson "provides tremendous resources and support for suppliers and automakers," said Glenn Stevens, vice president of sales and membership at the Original Equipment Suppliers Association, which is based in suburban Detroit.
The Center for Automotive Research began discussing a research alliance with Southern states some years ago. Those talks were put on hold during the recession, then resumed when the economy began to rebound.
The talks gained momentum last year after Audi AG announced plans to build an assembly plant in Mexico -- not Chattanooga, as many Southern officials had hoped.
Audi's decision "was a tipping point" for Southern officials, Stevens said.
Although the research initiative appears to be gaining momentum, it's not yet clear how the Center for Automotive Research will coordinate its activities.
Baron says he could appoint a liaison in each state to act as a go-between, or he might open a branch office in the South.
In any event, Baron said the center's main office would remain in Ann Arbor.
http://www.autonews.com/article/2013...#axzz2WRcuYWmj

[Baselinepunk]

Eight Southern states, organized by a Michigan research group, are forming a coalition to encourage overseas automakers and suppliers to locate r&d centers in the Southeast.

The effort, called the Southern Automotive Research Agenda, hopes to attract engineering talent to support automakers and suppliers doing business in Alabama, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Tennessee, South Carolina, Georgia and North Carolina. Texas and Florida may join the group.
The South has attracted a large share of transplant assembly plants in recent decades. An organized effort to win more r&d work would increase the South's competitiveness for high-paying auto jobs and fend off Mexico, which has attracted a number of assembly plants.
Leading the effort is the Center for Automotive Research, which is based in Ann Arbor, Mich. On March 12, the center will hold an organizational meeting in Washington, D.C.
Jay Baron, the center's president, says the coalition is intended as a counterweight to Mexico, which has attracted considerable investment from automakers and suppliers.
"We want the engineers to be here," Baron said. "These technicians and engineers are higher-end jobs."
Southeast Michigan, with its pool of engineering talent, has been a magnet for r&d centers built by foreign automakers such as Toyota, Nissan and Hyundai.
Michigan not happy
However, the plan is drawing criticism locally.
"It's a wake-up call," said Tom Manganello, a Detroit attorney and board member for MichAuto, a statewide industry association looking to attract development in Michigan. "We need to get more focused on what we have and how we're going to keep it and how we're going to grow it or we're going to lose it."
Manganello also is the brother of former BorgWarner Inc. CEO Tim Manganello, who is retiring as executive chairman of the supplier next month.
Doug Smith, senior vice president for business and community development for the Michigan Economic Development Corp., said the organization is not happy with the coalition idea but understands that CAR is not solely a Michigan-based group and has an international focus.
"We do see it as a threat," Smith said.
He said 75 percent of automotive r&d is done in Michigan.
"We don't take it lightly in terms of holding onto it," Smith said. "It means we need to redouble our efforts to keep them here."
Manganello said the plan is to steal away Michigan's more than 330 automotive r&d centers.
"The automotive epicenter for r&d is Michigan, and these are the highest-paying and most permanent jobs," he said. "Don't think the Southern states aren't licking their chops to get what we have."
Competition with Mexico
But Baron says the coalition does not intend to lure existing r&d centers away from Michigan and other Midwest states.
"The competition is with Mexico, not the North," Baron said. "We do not promote the idea that anybody should move from the North to the South. We are trying to make the pie bigger."
In an interview with Automotive News, Baron said the coalition would have three priorities:
1. Coordinate activities of engineering schools so Southern universities avoid overlapping research.
2. Provide expertise to economic developers to make their regions more competitive.
3. Identify the needs of automakers and Tier 1 suppliers, then help the Southern states provide those resources.
Member institutions could help provide resources for product development, manufacturing engineers, whatever a company might need.
For example, if BMW needs more technicians to fix robots in Spartanburg, the German automaker might get some help from other companies in the region.
Or it might consult Clemson University's International Center for Automotive Research in nearby Greenville, S.C.
That facility has attracted a dozen automotive suppliers, and it gets financial support from the state. In fact, South Carolina Commerce Secretary Robert Hitt is a former BMW executive.
Clemson "provides tremendous resources and support for suppliers and automakers," said Glenn Stevens, vice president of sales and membership at the Original Equipment Suppliers Association, which is based in suburban Detroit.
The Center for Automotive Research began discussing a research alliance with Southern states some years ago. Those talks were put on hold during the recession, then resumed when the economy began to rebound.
The talks gained momentum last year after Audi AG announced plans to build an assembly plant in Mexico -- not Chattanooga, as many Southern officials had hoped.
Audi's decision "was a tipping point" for Southern officials, Stevens said.
Although the research initiative appears to be gaining momentum, it's not yet clear how the Center for Automotive Research will coordinate its activities.
Baron says he could appoint a liaison in each state to act as a go-between, or he might open a branch office in the South.
In any event, Baron said the center's main office would remain in Ann Arbor.
http://www.autonews.com/article/2013...#axzz2WRcuYWmj

No worries; Dick Synder saved us with Right to Work for Less. Therefore, I have no doubt in my mind that within the next two years, we'll pass those states in the race to the bottom. Dick is focused on attracting "fertile" immigrants, as Jeb Bush so nicely contextualizes, to take those jobs that for some reason, people here don't want. I mean, once things shake out around here, people making 10 buck an hour should be able to live in a good house in a city that will eventually crumble, unless it raises taxes on its citizenry, while you might be paying into a pension that you may or may not get.

Sounds just like what the framers of this great land had intended all along. This is the 21c American Dream: Work for less, and loving it.

[maverick1]

I'm not surprised at all. The Southern states have been salivating at recreating the auto industry in that part of the country. It's been their goal for awhile. It's basically what they do. They don't create industries. They poach from other parts of the country and right now the Great Lakes region is a carcass the South continues to feed on.

[iheartthed]

Of the current states, only North Carolina and Georgia pose a serious threat to poach R&D facilities. Those other states don't have the educational infrastructure.

[TexasT]

Eight Southern states, organized by a Michigan research group, are forming a coalition to encourage overseas automakers and suppliers to locate r&d centers in the Southeast.

The effort, called the Southern Automotive Research Agenda, hopes to attract engineering talent to support automakers and suppliers doing business in Alabama, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Tennessee, South Carolina, Georgia and North Carolina. Texas and Florida may join the group.
The South has attracted a large share of transplant assembly plants in recent decades. An organized effort to win more r&d work would increase the South's competitiveness for high-paying auto jobs and fend off Mexico, which has attracted a number of assembly plants.
Leading the effort is the Center for Automotive Research, which is based in Ann Arbor, Mich. On March 12, the center will hold an organizational meeting in Washington, D.C.
Jay Baron, the center's president, says the coalition is intended as a counterweight to Mexico, which has attracted considerable investment from automakers and suppliers.
"We want the engineers to be here," Baron said. "These technicians and engineers are higher-end jobs."
Southeast Michigan, with its pool of engineering talent, has been a magnet for r&d centers built by foreign automakers such as Toyota, Nissan and Hyundai.
Michigan not happy
However, the plan is drawing criticism locally.
"It's a wake-up call," said Tom Manganello, a Detroit attorney and board member for MichAuto, a statewide industry association looking to attract development in Michigan. "We need to get more focused on what we have and how we're going to keep it and how we're going to grow it or we're going to lose it."
Manganello also is the brother of former BorgWarner Inc. CEO Tim Manganello, who is retiring as executive chairman of the supplier next month.
Doug Smith, senior vice president for business and community development for the Michigan Economic Development Corp., said the organization is not happy with the coalition idea but understands that CAR is not solely a Michigan-based group and has an international focus.
"We do see it as a threat," Smith said.
He said 75 percent of automotive r&d is done in Michigan.
"We don't take it lightly in terms of holding onto it," Smith said. "It means we need to redouble our efforts to keep them here."
Manganello said the plan is to steal away Michigan's more than 330 automotive r&d centers.
"The automotive epicenter for r&d is Michigan, and these are the highest-paying and most permanent jobs," he said. "Don't think the Southern states aren't licking their chops to get what we have."
Competition with Mexico
But Baron says the coalition does not intend to lure existing r&d centers away from Michigan and other Midwest states.
"The competition is with Mexico, not the North," Baron said. "We do not promote the idea that anybody should move from the North to the South. We are trying to make the pie bigger."
In an interview with Automotive News, Baron said the coalition would have three priorities:
1. Coordinate activities of engineering schools so Southern universities avoid overlapping research.
2. Provide expertise to economic developers to make their regions more competitive.
3. Identify the needs of automakers and Tier 1 suppliers, then help the Southern states provide those resources.
Member institutions could help provide resources for product development, manufacturing engineers, whatever a company might need.
For example, if BMW needs more technicians to fix robots in Spartanburg, the German automaker might get some help from other companies in the region.
Or it might consult Clemson University's International Center for Automotive Research in nearby Greenville, S.C.
That facility has attracted a dozen automotive suppliers, and it gets financial support from the state. In fact, South Carolina Commerce Secretary Robert Hitt is a former BMW executive.
Clemson "provides tremendous resources and support for suppliers and automakers," said Glenn Stevens, vice president of sales and membership at the Original Equipment Suppliers Association, which is based in suburban Detroit.
The Center for Automotive Research began discussing a research alliance with Southern states some years ago. Those talks were put on hold during the recession, then resumed when the economy began to rebound.
The talks gained momentum last year after Audi AG announced plans to build an assembly plant in Mexico -- not Chattanooga, as many Southern officials had hoped.
Audi's decision "was a tipping point" for Southern officials, Stevens said.
Although the research initiative appears to be gaining momentum, it's not yet clear how the Center for Automotive Research will coordinate its activities.
Baron says he could appoint a liaison in each state to act as a go-between, or he might open a branch office in the South.
In any event, Baron said the center's main office would remain in Ann Arbor.
http://www.autonews.com/article/2013...#axzz2WRcuYWmj

tl;dr: SEC>B1G.

Seriously though, it should be a wakeup call. Too many economic arguments I see/hear/read up here are made in a vacuum, without context of what's going on south of the Mason-Dixon line.

[Wesley Mouch]

No worries; Dick Synder saved us with Right to Work for Less. Therefore, I have no doubt in my mind that within the next two years, we'll pass those states in the race to the bottom. Dick is focused on attracting "fertile" immigrants, as Jeb Bush so nicely contextualizes, to take those jobs that for some reason, people here don't want. I mean, once things shake out around here, people making 10 buck an hour should be able to live in a good house in a city that will eventually crumble, unless it raises taxes on its citizenry, while you might be paying into a pension that you may or may not get.

Sounds just like what the framers of this great land had intended all along. This is the 21c American Dream: Work for less, and loving it.

What's the link here between RTW and R&D? If anything, these RTW states would seem to be racing to the top with this initiative, wouldn't they?

[iheartthed]

What's the link here between RTW and R&D? If anything, these RTW states would seem to be racing to the top with this initiative, wouldn't they?

Not much since they are hardly ever [[never?) unionized. R&D centers tend to be located in close proximity to educational institutions.

[poobert]

Why don't they start by educating their own constituents?

http://www.educationnews.org/educati...ucated-states/

As much as Michigan can suck, the Southeast is way down on my list of desirable places in the entire world. Low education, seething bigotry, fanatical religiosity, only a few population centers of note - what kind of educated person wants to live there?

This is a Hail Mary. R&D isn't going to the south. Outside a few population centers, nobody wants to live there and the whole area is relatively poor compared to the rest of the nation. They're grasping at straws to get out.

[Not In MI]

Why don't they start by educating their own constituents?

http://www.educationnews.org/educati...ucated-states/

As much as Michigan can suck, the Southeast is way down on my list of desirable places in the entire world. Low education, seething bigotry, fanatical religiosity, only a few population centers of note - what kind of educated person wants to live there?

This is a Hail Mary. R&D isn't going to the south. Outside a few population centers, nobody wants to live there and the whole area is relatively poor compared to the rest of the nation. They're grasping at straws to get out.

Got any other stereotypes you'd like to share?

[DetroitPlanner]

Looks like Fiat is a target.

[TexasT]

Got any other stereotypes you'd like to share?

Heh, he's not too far off.

I do remember coming to SE Michigan, seeing UM, MSU, EM, CMU, Wayne State, etc [[basically a ton of large public universities) and thinking "wow, this area really values education." Michigan might have more public universities than my home state of Texas, and with just a third of the people.

Our barbecue is better though.

[Wesley Mouch]

Why don't they start by educating their own constituents?

http://www.educationnews.org/educati...ucated-states/

As much as Michigan can suck, the Southeast is way down on my list of desirable places in the entire world. Low education, seething bigotry, fanatical religiosity, only a few population centers of note - what kind of educated person wants to live there?

This is a Hail Mary. R&D isn't going to the south. Outside a few population centers, nobody wants to live there and the whole area is relatively poor compared to the rest of the nation. They're grasping at straws to get out.

What a load of poo.

Being the least educated state doesn't mean there are not a lot of really smart people. Its only an average.

You probably don't remember when the car companies said the same sort of things about the Japanese, Koreans. Now we say it about the south and the Chinese.

Poo.

[cman710]

Why don't they start by educating their own constituents?

http://www.educationnews.org/educati...ucated-states/

As much as Michigan can suck, the Southeast is way down on my list of desirable places in the entire world. Low education, seething bigotry, fanatical religiosity, only a few population centers of note - what kind of educated person wants to live there?

This is a Hail Mary. R&D isn't going to the south. Outside a few population centers, nobody wants to live there and the whole area is relatively poor compared to the rest of the nation. They're grasping at straws to get out.

I would like R&D to stay in Michigan, but competititon is a fact, and Michigan will need to compete with these other places to keep the jobs here. And, as much as you may not like to admit it, many people clearly perceive living in the Southeast as preferable to living in Michigan.

The states you mention are generally warm in the winter, low-cost, and have many excellent universities. They also have problems with public health and education. People from those states could very easily criticize Michigan as being cold, backward, and undereducated. Both regions have their positives and negatives, and Michigan needs to go out and compete for these jobs as well as it can.

Ultimately, jobs will draw people to Michigan more than any other factor. That is why Detroit boomed in the first place in the early decades of the 20th century, and that is why states like Texas are booming now. People will go where the jobs are.

[poobert]

What a load of poo.

Being the least educated state doesn't mean there are not a lot of really smart people. Its only an average.

You probably don't remember when the car companies said the same sort of things about the Japanese, Koreans. Now we say it about the south and the Chinese.

Poo.

They're also overwhelmingly the poorest.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...y_poverty_rate

Not really hitting it out of the park when it comes to developing humans, either:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_HDI

The difference with your analogy is that the Japanese and Koreans had been steadily rebounding since WWII. Poverty and lack of education are still stubborn problems in many Southeastern states with little indication of improvement.

I'm not saying there aren't smart and/or rich people in the South.

All I'm saying is that with a huge chunk of population that is poor and uneducated and generally doing really shitty, it seems like a really uphill battle to jump out and say, "Oh yeah, but we want research and development now!"

They could pretty easily draw some manufacturing jobs for almost that very reason but this is a whole different animal.

[iheartthed]

What a load of poo.

Being the least educated state doesn't mean there are not a lot of really smart people. Its only an average.

You probably don't remember when the car companies said the same sort of things about the Japanese, Koreans. Now we say it about the south and the Chinese.

Poo.

Only North Carolina and Georgia have schools with anywhere near a strong enough engineering program to support a mass flock of R&D facilities to the South. And I doubt that schools in either of those states specialize in the type of engineering that would be useful for an automotive R&D outfit. Sorry, this is just bullshit. There's a reason why the Toyota Technical Center is in Ann Arbor even while Toyota of America is HQ'd in California.

[Not In MI]

$5 say Poobert has a "Co-exist" sticker on the back of his/her hybrid car

[aj3647]

When Toyota built a plant in Alabama, lured by the low taxes and millions in breaks and subsidies, they quickly found that the cost of training employees was extremely high. The local workforce in Alabama was low-skill and had little education. So many of them were functionally-illiterate that Toyota had to train them how to use complex machinery using pictorials.

When it came time to decide where to build their new RAV-4 plant, Alabama enticed them with tens of millions in tax breaks and credits. Toyota turned them down, and instead decided to build their new plant in Woodstock, Ontario. They found the Canadian workers to be highly-educated and highly-skilled, 70% of them had at least some college education. They required very little training when compared to their Alabama counterparts.

The old adage of "you get what you pay for" rings true. Taxes and labor costs were almost certainly far higher in Canada than in Alabama, but in exchange Toyota got workers that were far far far superior and cost way less to train.

[begingri]

Tennessee officials lobby for Fiat-Chrysler HQ

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...100/1148/rss25

[Wesley Mouch]

When Toyota built a plant in Alabama, lured by the low taxes and millions in breaks and subsidies, they quickly found that the cost of training employees was extremely high. The local workforce in Alabama was low-skill and had little education. So many of them were functionally-illiterate that Toyota had to train them how to use complex machinery using pictorials.

When it came time to decide where to build their new RAV-4 plant, Alabama enticed them with tens of millions in tax breaks and credits. Toyota turned them down, and instead decided to build their new plant in Woodstock, Ontario. They found the Canadian workers to be highly-educated and highly-skilled, 70% of them had at least some college education. They required very little training when compared to their Alabama counterparts.

The old adage of "you get what you pay for" rings true. Taxes and labor costs were almost certainly far higher in Canada than in Alabama, but in exchange Toyota got workers that were far far far superior and cost way less to train.

So then why did VW locate in TN? Examples are easy to come by. Just find one that fits your narrative, and your all set.

Bottom line here is that we do live in a competitive world, and there will be those gunning for our jobs every year. All we can do is be the best, most adaptable, progressive city we can be!

[PeachLaser]

Here are the top engineering schools in the world...
http://www.timeshighereducation.co.u...neering-and-IT

Georgia Tech is ranked #9 and the Univ. of Michigan is ranked #19. California has four in the top ten.

Porsche is building their big new modern North American Headquarters and driver test track with driver experience on the grounds of the old Atlanta Ford Assembly Plant. VW just invested a $billion in Chattanooga, just up the road and they have a goal to become the #1 automaker in the world.

In comparison, last month I drove out Woodward Ave. to Highland Park to look at the old and now-closed Highland Park General Hospital. A few days later, I drove down Peachtree Street in Atlanta. One looked like a growing and modern 21st century city and the other looked like a third world disaster.

Some people also don't realize that there is a large group of highly-trained aircraft workers in the metro area at Lockheed-Martin where they build the C-130's, stealth fighter and used to build the C-5.

I think some of the stereotypes that people are expressing here about the South are way off. I will admit, though, get outside the metro-Atlanta area and things drop off quickly.

Something people don't realize either is that Georgia is becoming the "Hollywood of the South" as more and more movies and TV shows are being filmed here. Several new hundred $million studios are currently being built.

Now, if we just had Michigan's water supply.

[Newdetroit]

Nissan is also located in Franklin, Tennessee. Yes, people in Michigan tend to discount the South. But believe me, North Carolina, Alabama, Georgia, Texas, and Tennessee are the biggest threats to Michigan! Michigan: Cold, rust belt, and the owner of the largest third world ghetto refugee camp called Flint-Detroit. It is not appealing to people. Michigan really needs to clean up and transform Detroit into a new city with a new population base, and compete head on strong with other states in retaining and attracting automotive industries while diversifying the economy. North Carolina is the biggest threat to Michigan. The universities, the weather, the outer banks/geography, etc. So, people in Michigan need to stop discounting and redneckanize the appeal of the South.

[TexasT]

Nissan is also located in Franklin, Tennessee. Yes, people in Michigan tend to discount the South. But believe me, North Carolina, Alabama, Georgia, Texas, and Tennessee are the biggest threats to Michigan! Michigan: Cold, rust belt, and the owner of the largest third world ghetto refugee camp called Flint-Detroit. It is not appealing to people. Michigan really needs to clean up and transform Detroit into a new city with a new population base, and compete head on strong with other states in retaining and attracting automotive industries while diversifying the economy. North Carolina is the biggest threat to Michigan. The universities, the weather, the outer banks/geography, etc. So, people in Michigan need to stop discounting and redneckanize the appeal of the South.

I have to agree with this. I did not have a good opinion of Michigan, and especially not of Detroit, before visiting here [[courtesy of my Michigan-born husband). My southern friends are pretty incredulous even that Detroit has nice suburbs - that's why I find it ironic when the suburbanites laugh at what Detroit has become, without any thought as to how it affects them. It's a very regional mentality when they are facing a national, if not global, problem. Perhaps their growth, property values, etc are good for Michigan but they are losing out on what they could have when you look at how things are moving nationally.

South doesn't just mean ass-backwards Mississippi. I'm not so sure about the Deep South but the Carolinas and Atlanta are poised to be huge threats. UGA, GaTech, the Research Triangle in NC, the engineering in Greennville, SC...

[maverick1]

I can see this happening but it's going to take A LOT to recreate the synergy the auto industry has here. This was built over 100 years. I've worked in this industry for almost 16 years and the engineering and skilled trade talent in this area is ridiculous. I've met more than my fair share of skilled trades guys that were basically engineers without the degree to say it. Add in the degreed engineers and you see how much talent is here. There is a huge advantage to having 3 of the largest automakers in the world 30-40 minutes away from each other. Having a transplant HQ is not the same as having a homegrown HQ. I work for a foreign corporation. Most of our R&D is done in Europe. I feel the South can do this but it is a ballsy attempt.

[Wesley Mouch]

I have to agree with this. I did not have a good opinion of Michigan, and especially not of Detroit, before visiting here [[courtesy of my Michigan-born husband). My southern friends are pretty incredulous even that Detroit has nice suburbs - that's why I find it ironic when the suburbanites laugh at what Detroit has become, without any thought as to how it affects them. It's a very regional mentality when they are facing a national, if not global, problem. Perhaps their growth, property values, etc are good for Michigan but they are losing out on what they could have when you look at how things are moving nationally.

South doesn't just mean ass-backwards Mississippi. I'm not so sure about the Deep South but the Carolinas and Atlanta are poised to be huge threats. UGA, GaTech, the Research Triangle in NC, the engineering in Greennville, SC...

+1 -- Best post.

[nain rouge]

You mean to tell me that when you tell people you're from Detroit, they don't say, "Oh, that's that place with downtown Ferndale and Royal Oak, right?"