Whole Foods CEO, On Opening Detroit Store: 'We're Going After Elitism, Racism'

[jackie5275]

In all fairness to poobert, there ARE, [[or were, since 9-11), quite a few CA plates around town. Back in the day when I served time living Downriver, I'd venture to say you'd see one CA plate for every 2 MI plates, [[and that's just my totally anecdotal observation), up and down the Eureka Rd. shopping strip, on any given day. I haven't been back there on a regular basis, so I have no idea how this is playing out these days, with the tightened border security. But you are right, I shop @ the same stores you mentioned above, [[LOVE TJ's), and I don't see many CA plates in this part of town either.

When I lived in Lincoln Park, 10 yrs ago, there were many vehicles with CA plates that I saw in the stores too. I've since left that area also, but I can say that these days I still see a fair number on the weekends in the parking lots of Target & Meijer at Fairlane Green in Allen Park.

[DetroitPlanner]

When I lived in Lincoln Park, 10 yrs ago, there were many vehicles with CA plates that I saw in the stores too. I've since left that area also, but I can say that these days I still see a fair number on the weekends in the parking lots of Target & Meijer at Fairlane Green in Allen Park.

CA plates? Fascinating, that sure is a long way to drive to save a few pennies on milk! What about ON plates?

[Honky Tonk]

I wonder where Whole Food's CEO Walter Robb obtained the datum that the
expectation of life at birth is 12 years shorter in Detroit than in the suburban ring? A six year difference seems reasonable. 12 years is a great deal.

My guess is from some of the Detroit crime report websites.

[poobert]

So I think I've got it:

To be truly right and just, Whole Foods must open a store without any sort of subsidy - unlike countless other projects in city, suburb, or rural areas - in a completely marginal, crime ridden area. We even have an area picked out by one of our helpers, John R and 7 Mile. Oh, by the way, they're not really adding jobs because they're a grocery store[[?!). And Canadians don't shop here.

Then the suburban mafia can then REALLY scream about how it is destined to fail - which they're already doing already, anyway. We've even picked a time - next year, right?

You guys set some odd benchmarks here.

I probably won't shop there, and am not a "Detroit optimist" by any means, but I have enough reason to believe they've done their homework and will be successful. You guys just need to lay off the piss-laden Wheaties.

[Honky Tonk]

Not defending HF but it takes just a day trip to Windsor to see that their grocery stores do not have the variety of even a Kroger which has over 50 kinds of cereal options and they have far less. We may have 20 versions of toothpaste in our CVS for example, they have 10! There is LESS choice so that might influence some to do the customs thing.

OMG! I had NO idea Canada is such an impoverished nation! They should apply for aid from the US. They must have squandered the money from that shuttle robotic arm.

[Det_ard]

So are people mad that Detroit gave Whole Foods $1.5M or are they ok with that but mad that other stores don't receive the same support?

Because as to the former, every city I've ever lived in [[Houston and Chicago included) gave incentives to bring grocery stores to the city. I already linked to the one about Chicago giving a few million to a grocery store in the West Loop. Houston used incentives to bring H-E-B to the Heights area, a bohemian/hipster neighborhood in central Houston. San Antonio, the 7th largest city in the nation, just put out an RFP with a million dollars included to bring a grocer to downtown. Just is what it is; what goes on in suburbs isn't always what works in cities.

What's the problem with big cities that they have to have subsidized grocery stores? That's a pretty basic need, food. You'd think stores selling a basic necessity of life would be able to make a go of it on their own without the corporate version of food stamps.

[ghettopalmetto]

What's the problem with big cities that they have to have subsidized grocery stores? That's a pretty basic need, food. You'd think stores selling a basic necessity of life would be able to make a go of it on their own without the corporate version of food stamps.

Grocery stores have razor-thin profit margins [[about 1%). When they locate in an urban environment, where they're not getting free rent as an anchor tenant in an enormous suburban strip mall, the financial metrics change.

[Det_ard]

Grocery stores have razor-thin profit margins [[about 1%). When they locate in an urban environment, where they're not getting free rent as an anchor tenant in an enormous suburban strip mall, the financial metrics change.

Then maybe the cities should have more suburban-style strip malls so that they wouldn't have to subsidize the grocery stores so much. Those strip malls must be really profitable if they can afford to give free rent to their largest tenants.

[bailey]

So I think I've got it:
To be truly right and just, Whole Foods must open a store without any sort of subsidy - unlike countless other projects in city, suburb, or rural areas - in a completely marginal, crime ridden area. We even have an area picked out by one of our helpers, John R and 7 Mile. Oh, by the way, they're not really adding jobs because they're a grocery store[[?!). And Canadians don't shop here.

You guys set some odd benchmarks here.

You've got some odd reading comprehension skills. The issue that touched off the criticism was the WF CEO martyring around like he was the vanguard of a movement and the first to get grocery stores into Detroit. WF is not..he's 86th. He claimed to be addressing "elitism", "racism" and "a food desert". Then located the store in an area [[and someone can correct me) with a higher concentration of professionals and lower concentration of under served minorities than any other in the city. He claimed this is a bold risk for some greater good, yet can only do it if he gets 4.5 million in assistance from a bankrupt city and bare bones State.

As to the latter, as far as other stores, are you sure they are not getting incentives? YOBS got financial assistance from MEDC and DEGC, the organizations that provided the incentives to WF. I keep seeing people say that YOBS was left on their own but that's not accurate.

YOBS got some assistance in the form of grants and loans, it did not get 4.5 million. Further YOBS is not a outpost of a multi billion dollar multinational company. Finally, YOBS rehabbed and reused a building that already housed a grocery. WF demanded a new build. If WF got what YOBS got, perhaps there'd be less head scratching.

I don't get the criticism on the size of the store either [[the "half-sized" comments). I suppose if you do your grocery shopping in warehouses, then 25,000 square feet might seem tiny. But this store is clearly not meant to be the out-scaled "regional attraction" to which so many people in Michigan are accustomed. Is there something wrong with a store that serves its neighborhood [[and purchases from local farmers and purveyors)? Tax subsidies or not, this is a step in the right direction scale-wise for Detroit.

WF average store size is 35000 square feet. I think Austin still has the record at 80,000. It's not that it's "tiny" as compared to Wal Mart, it's small for a WF. Detroit's 20k is half the size of either of the two in the burbs [[less than half the size of AA's..unless that is suburban detroit) and one of the smallest they have. speaks to the level of commitment to solving that food desert issue when they build the smallest store in the region where apparently there is the most need for more store.

And as it is such a relatively small store... why the demand for a new build? Are you telling me there are no suitable buildings of similar size in under served areas that could have been used? I can think of three former Farmer Jacks turned Kroger's standing empty right now. But.. again, they're in areas that actually NEED a grocery store and not in hipster central.

[Eber Brock Ward]

my local grocery store in chicago in wicker park was probably a couple thousand square feet. [[http://www.oliviasmarket.com/) prior to that, in the gold coast, my grocery was 7000-8000 square feet. [[http://www.suntimes.com/business/763...-the-year.html). to add on, i think the lakeview and hyde park whole foods were about 30,000 square feet.

in my time in ny, i shopped at a gourmet garage in the village that was about 4,000 square feet [[http://www.gourmetgarage.com/).

if anything, the midtown whole foods should not be criticized for being too small; rather, it should be criticized for being too large and having that stupid parking lot screwing up the urban fabric on mack.

i may stop by here from time to time, but i will spend all of my non u-foods dollars at YOBS -- both to keep it local with the Solakas, and because they did it right when it came to an urban grocery.

[Bham1982]

So I think I've got it:
To be truly right and just, Whole Foods must open a store without any sort of subsidy - unlike countless other projects in city, suburb, or rural areas -

We're talking a mini-grocery store. Are you aware of even one mini-grocery anywhere else in the region that received even a penny in subsidies?

And the point isn't the subsidies. It's the ridiculous pronouncements of their "fight against racism and elitism" one heirloom tomato at a time.

We all know that if this thing survives, it will be because of Wayne State/DMC medical staff stopping on their way back to their comfortable suburban homes.

[drjeff]

While I do not necessarily agree with the words of the WF CEO, the fact is that the location of the new store is ideal for them and their clientele. The city is growing in midtown and downtown and having an upscale store with name recognition will be a further draw to those considering moving to those areas. I work three blocks away and will be a regular there, and it is across the street from the DMC with a lot of high income people who will also shop there as it couldn't be any more convenient.

If you think WF is too expensive or "snooty," then don't shop there. But anyone who is actually rooting for any business in Detroit to fail is just a goddamned asshole.

[Eber Brock Ward]

Bham, TexasT pointed out many "mini" urban grocery stores that received subsidies.

It's what cities do. And the best part about a subsidy like the ones these grocery stores receive is that, if it fails, nothing lost going forward. When a suburban development fails -- see the Washtenaw County example above, and Allen Park with the failed movie studio and underproducing mega strip shopping center -- the muni is on the hook for the bonds used to finance the infrastructure.

Again, with the grocery stores, nothing lost going forward. If you and others are going to make a compelling argument, you'll have to do it on the basis of opportunity cost.

[Bham1982]

if anything, the midtown whole foods should not be criticized for being too small; rather, it should be criticized for being too large and having that stupid parking lot screwing up the urban fabric on mack.

So it's by far the smallest WF in the world, yet still too large for you? There are 70,000 square foot WF in cramped environments like Manhattan.

And the "stupid parking lot" is kind of necessary given that no place in the U.S. outside of NYC where grocery stores don't have plenty of free parking. You think it's a coincidence that the store is being built on a freeway exit from the DMC to I-75?

Even in Chicago, every single downtown grocery store has plenty of free parking, usually in normal surface lots. Don't you think that if parking is absolutely necessary in Chicago markets, the same would be true in Detroit?

[gnome]

Seems a bit harsh don't you think, Gnome? My spouse works for WF and not on a management level. He makes a decent wage for non management with frequent raises. They have a decent 401k plan, health plan [[he pays $10 every two weeks and he is over 50). I can tell you they do tons for their employees to promote healthy living, and their benefits are extremely competitive. Granted the healthier their employees are the lower their health care costs but it seems to benefit both the employer and employee in this case. My spouse spent a week in Hawaii all expenses paid to learn about healthy eating, excercise and mental health. His total cholestrol alone went from the above 240 to below 200. As far as their work rules go, they are not any more harsh, restrictive or capricious than most other successful grocery chains.

I am glad your husband has had such a positive working experience; alas, I can only report what I have been told by the step-daughter. I suspect it may come down to store managers on how employees are treated and it sounds like your husband is lucky to be working with some great people.

As I have no personal knowledge about working at WF, I will certainly defer to your more direct experience.

But I do not consider my reportage overly harsh. Not even a little harsh.

Charging cashiers for items stolen by customers, is harsh; but again, your experience is more direct and more positive. I accept that as the truth.

[Bham1982]

Bham, TexasT pointed out many "mini" urban grocery stores that received subsidies.

Name one. I can't think of any in the area.

And yeah, on another thread, he claimed that Chicago grocery stores all receive subsidies. It isn't true. No way in hell is WF, Walmart Fresh, Jewel/Osco all receiving subsidies. Maybe here and there in the ghetto, but not as a normal course of action.

[TexasT]

YOBS got some assistance in the form of grants and loans, it did not get 4.5 million. Further YOBS is not a outpost of a multi billion dollar multinational company. If WF got what YOBS got, perhaps there'd be less head scratching.

How much did YOBS get? And how much did it get relative to how much it paid to develop its store?

WF did not get 4.5M from Detroit FYI. 1.5M or so came from local/community funds [[not even sure how much of that was actually CoD) and the rest was state and federal, per Crains. Do you know whether YOBS and other urban grocers have received state or federal money? Because people were pretty adamant that YOBS received no help and that was wrong...

WF average store size is 35000 square feet. I think Austin still has the record at 80,000. Detroit's 20k is half the size of either of the two in the burbs. speaks to the level of commitment to solving that food desert issue when they build the smallest store in the region where apparently there is the most need for more store.

Most urban stores are much smaller than their suburban counterparts. In Chicago, we had "City Target" and "Walmart Express" - much smaller to appropriately meet the demands of its urban location and clientele. I've already said I'm more likely to continue shopping at YOBS over WF because it's smaller and more convenient. Austin's WF, yes is the flag ship but Austin is not very dense or urban [[which is why I struck it off the list of cities to consider after leaving Chicago). I would NOT want an 80K sf WF in Midtown.

Also, lots of WF have multiple bars and even restaurants in them. Perhaps this one cut that out and still offer the same square footage of actual grocery aisles. We'll see when it opens, no?

I'm still going to shop at YOBS but I certainly will try WF out and wish them best of luck.

[Eber Brock Ward]

And the "stupid parking lot" is kind of necessary given that no place in the U.S. outside of NYC where grocery stores don't have plenty of free parking. You think it's a coincidence that the store is being built on a freeway exit from the DMC to I-75?

Nope. Could have built a deck in the back.

Even in Chicago, every single downtown grocery store has plenty of free parking, usually in normal surface lots. Don't you think that if parking is absolutely necessary in Chicago markets, the same would be true in Detroit?

Troll. You can't just make up facts to suit your story. I lived and bought groceries in River North or the Gold Coast for 6 of the 10 years I lived there.

[bailey]

If you think WF is too expensive or "snooty," then don't shop there. But anyone who is actually rooting for any business in Detroit to fail is just a goddamned asshole.

How many Detroit businesses won't get the chance to succeed because the city and the state decided that this multi billion dollar multi-national needed 4 million in assistance to open? I mean, how long will YOBS survive with a subsidized WF moving in down the street?

[Bham1982]

Most urban stores are much smaller than their suburban counterparts.

I don't think this is generally true. Most WF are larger in cities than in suburbs, I think. New construction grocery stores are generally the same size, or larger, in urban areas, probably because land acquisition costs are generally higher and demand is generally stronger.

In NYC, the WF are usually in the 50,000-70,000 square foot range. In the suburbs around NYC, the WF are usually in the 30,000-40,000 square foot range.

One thing locally here in MI is that the WF don't seem to be that great. In most markets, WF are among the top grocers. Here places like Papa Joes tend to be better. The WF in Troy is really so-so, the WB one is bigger and newer, but not that great; the RH and AA ones are probably the best in MI.

[Eber Brock Ward]

Name one. I can't think of any in the area.

And yeah, on another thread, he claimed that Chicago grocery stores all receive subsidies. It isn't true. No way in hell is WF, Walmart Fresh, Jewel/Osco all receiving subsidies. Maybe here and there in the ghetto, but not as a normal course of action.

hyde park development/whole foods: http://chicago.curbed.com/archives/2...-hyde-park.php
trader joes in evanston: http://evanston.patch.com/articles/c...-s-in-evanston

and those are just two deals off the top of my head where i *personally* worked on the TIF component of the deal. i could keep rattling them off. the RULE is subsidization, with the exception to the rule being non-subsidized development.

GTFO unless you actually know what you're talking about.

[bailey]

How much did YOBS get? And how much did it get relative to how much it paid to develop its store?

IDK, I'm sure someone can answer that, but it doesn't address the other questions there. A) Why does a multi billion multi national company require subsidy to open a half sized version of its store? Especially if it's doing it for such laudable, altruistic, non business reasons? b) why didn't WF rehab a vacant building in a city littered with them...especially in areas just screaming for decent grocery stores?

I'm still going to shop at YOBS but I certainly will try WF out and wish them best of luck.

I hope people do. Hopefully they will both stay open.

[Bham1982]

Nope. Could have built a deck in the back.

Ok, and how would that solve your perceived problem? Now you still have plenty of free parking, but your construction costs just doubled, so the public subsidy goes even higher.

Haha, fuck off troll. You can't just make up facts to suit your story. I lived and bought groceries in River North or the Gold Coast for 6 of the 10 years I lived there.

LOL. You're lying if you claim that WF in Gold Coast doesn't have plenty of free parking. I've been there a million times. Same goes with Trader Joes, Jewel-Osco, Dominicks, Fox Obel, WalMart Fresh, Target etc.

Please name ONE major grocery store in Chicago without plenty of free adjacent parking? This doesn't exist.

[iheartthed]

So it's by far the smallest WF in the world, yet still too large for you? There are 70,000 square foot WF in cramped environments like Manhattan.

Here you go with the faulty stats again. It is not the smallest Whole Foods in the world. And you're comparing the largest Whole Foods in Manhattan with the first WF in Detroit.

[Bham1982]

hyde park development/whole foods: http://chicago.curbed.com/archives/2...-hyde-park.php
trader joes in evanston: http://evanston.patch.com/articles/c...-s-in-evanston

and those are just two deals off the top of my head where i *personally* worked on the TIF component of the deal. i could keep rattling them off. the RULE is subsidization, with the exception to the rule being non-subsidized development.

GTFO unless you actually know what you're talking about.

Bullshit. Two stores out of 10 million people, both in the hood, neither downtown.

South Evanston is crap. So is the South Side of Chicago. For whatever reason, idiot politicans in Chicagoland thought it was a good use of taxpayer subsidies to put chain stores in areas without market demand.

Now let's go to your original claim. You said that all downtown stores receive subsidies.

I was just in a brand new WalMart Fresh in East Lakeview two weeks ago. Could you point me to the taxpayer dollars used in the opening? I was also in a new Plum Market in Old Town during the same trip. Could you point to the subsidy?