The real Detroit? Hey from the UK :)

[Kass-UK]

Hey guys,

So I'm not from Detroit, Or the US for that matter, I'm from England in the United Kingdom. But I've always liked finding out things about places that interest me.
So who to ask better than the people who live in your city.

So, I was wondering what it's actually like to live in Detroit, Media over here see it as a run down old industrial city.
I went on Google maps and noticed some lovely looking areas. And then there were areas that just looked deserted.

https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&l...99999999999949

To me, that looks like a great street, if it was lived in of course So why has it ended up the way it has? I mean a few streets over. The houses and streets look great, Well presented. Somewhere you could raise your kids kind of look.

I was just wondering, because there is no chance streets in England would end up like that. Its a shame to be honest. Im not insulting your city. Not by any means, But Im failing to understand how streets like the one linked, which looked to have nice houses on. ends up the way it does? Do the authorities not sort it out?

There are some amazing areas of you're city, And as most cities there are bound to be bad areas, Just a bit strange that one street is great, and the other like your in North Korea :S

For comparisons sake, Ill link a 'Run down' Area of London in the UK.

https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Wal...275.78,,0,4.67

I mean, As you can see, Its nothing like a suburb of your city, I mean this area of London is pretty run down, Since London is just an ageing city. There is a stupid amount of crime in this area, No guns really, As guns are not a big thing in the UK. People tend to use fists. But the local authorities would never let houses sit idle, unless they were planning to redevelop the whole area, [[Knock them down and build new)

I was also wondering what it was like 'job' wise in your city, [[Things are not too great here in the UK, Seems to be a thousand people after every job)

The UK is a 'services' country now, Not much manufacturing or engineering etc...

I am planning a trip to the US in a few years, Obviously visiting NYC and Vegas, But I'd like to see more of the real US, Any suggestions?

Hopefully a few guys will reply, and give me an insight into your wonderful city


Cheers!

[sumas]

Hard to answer your questions. I am a life long Detroiter and I love my city and our history. Detroit currently is almost a block by block success or disaster. There is tons to do here. Outstanding structures and outstanding blight. Job market still seems to suck but some promising signs of a small rebound.

My husband was in international marketing for years and I appreciate that visitors can't comprehend the devastation of many of our neighborhoods. Frankly I can't either!

I love my community, my neighbors are outstanding. It's a small historic district.

Hope you visit. There are many threads where great places to experience are listed

[night-timer]

Detroit was a boomtown of the Industrial Age. We are now in the computer age, whatever that is.

[Detroitdave]

Hummmm , Well there's two ways to answer your question, the long educated way, or the shorter regular American way , I'll try to meet in the middle.

As an American I've lived in Europe a couple of times so I understand the question from someone who's never been here and looking from the outside.

The story of Detroit is the story of America and her large cities, it's complicated relationship with minorities , especially African Americans .

Detroit , more than ANY other major city in America , had several things go terribly wrong for DECADES !!! and they were NEVER seriously address correctly .

This list goes from the decentralization of the city , which happen in almost every American city, race riots, the fall of the auto industry, white flight, Freeways, Malls , ect the list goes on and on, and if this goes on and on over 50 years with NO one really caring or paying attention to the city and her citizens you get the current city :-[[

After WWII and soldiers were returning home, having babies, they want new houses different from their parents and they wanted their OWN homes and real estate companies, car companies ect, and the government were all on board to keep the economy moving :-)

A house burns down, it's old ,it's in a old neighborhood, no one wants to live next door, they move out scrappers move in ,drugs move in , no developer is EVER going to rebuild until the entire neighborhood is gone , ect, ect , ect you see where this is going .

Then there's generational poverty for 50 years !!!! all in the same city???
the pictures becomes pretty clear ,you get that ah ha moment

Now the million dollar question is WHY ! ,WHY we as citizen let it get so bad for SOOOOOO long ??? where was the outrage ?

Well let me stop before I'm start to rant LOL :-)
I hope this shines a light on your question ?

Did I kinda of get it right ??? I could have went on but I didn't want to write a paper LOL :-)

[401don]

I would add to what Detroit Dave has stated by saying that, as a Canadian, the biggest difference I see is that the State level of gov't [[Michigan) does not intercede the way the Provincial gov't [[Ontario) would in Canada. Local municipalities compete with the central city by offering cheap land and low taxes. In the Detroit area there was plenty of available land for sprawl so if you wanted to get away from the city because of crime, race issues or simply wanted a bigger home and lot it was very easy to do so. Also, auto companies and their supplier built outside the city for the same reasons and residents followed the proximity to the jobs.

[poobert]

I would add to what Detroit Dave has stated by saying that, as a Canadian, the biggest difference I see is that the State level of gov't [[Michigan) does not intercede the way the Provincial gov't [[Ontario) would in Canada. Local municipalities compete with the central city by offering cheap land and low taxes. In the Detroit area there was plenty of available land for sprawl so if you wanted to get away from the city because of crime, race issues or simply wanted a bigger home and lot it was very easy to do so. Also, auto companies and their supplier built outside the city for the same reasons and residents followed the proximity to the jobs.

This is true. We also have a huge phobia of government here, dating back to your good King George III and beyond. Except in the most liberal US states, people generally decry government intervention in bolstering cities with things like green belts and restrictive zoning. So the market rules the day, and the market has not been kind to Detroit.

Also we in the US haven't really been forced to confront the problems of space and living in close quarters except in a few cities. England is quite the opposite, being one of the most urbanized countries in the world. In Greater Detroit, the "solution" has been, and continues to be, to just build outward and never look back.

I live in Detroit. I don't mind the city, really. I live in a neighborhood called East English Village, coincidentally, and like it quite a bit.
http://goo.gl/maps/WO6cn [[random address - not mine)
While it has aged a bit it is still a nice place to live with beautiful houses. I've never been a victim of any real crime, and my neighbors are all very kind people. It's easier because I don't have kids, mind you.

What I hate about living in Detroit is the region. It is a region where many people don't really care about the city - or anything, really - as long as they're safe in their giant houses 20 miles away. The American Midwest is also notoriously provincial, and I'd say Michigan is one of the worst offenders. I'm also a pretty active and nature-oriented guy and it is so depressing to me to see vulgar subdivisions for new-money yahoos go up in what was once the countryside. It makes for a pretty unhealthy lifestyle, with not much to do but go to a McDonald's and a shopping mall.

But, hey, it is a free country after all so we're exploring a move to the east coast.

The US gets a bad rap but there are certainly many great places to see. New Orleans is my favorite city, being such a melding of cultures. To me, that is part of what makes the US great. I'd also recommend Boston and Massachusetts as our venerable birthplace. The San Francisco Bay Area also strikes me as distinctly American - the edge of the continent, if you will - and it is certainly quite scenic.

We're planning a visit the UK next year - I fell in love with London years ago and have deep English roots myself.

[samsonov]

I would add to what Detroit Dave has stated by saying that, as a Canadian, the biggest difference I see is that the State level of gov't [[Michigan) does not intercede the way the Provincial gov't [[Ontario) would in Canada.

This distinction is spot on. To me [[as a Canadian living in Detroit for almost three years now) this is the biggest reason why Detroit ended up the way it did. As for the reasons for this non-intervention, I think Poobert put it best.

What I hate about living in Detroit is the region. It is a region where many people don't really care about the city - or anything, really - as long as they're safe in their giant houses 20 miles away.

I really love the city and living in it, but I'm not so enamoured [[and sometimes appalled) with the mindset some Detroit suburbanites have. Basically the selfish let the "let the city burn" and "why should my tax money to go anything except that which benefits me" types. I always thought being part of a society included concern for the well-being of others in the society on some basic level. I think that escapes some Detroiters!

[ggores]

Do the authorities not sort it out?

Sorry, but I nearly blew hot coffee out my nose on that one.

[Zug]

I'm quite impressed with the quality and detail of the responses.

As you can see, the basic theme is: In our region, if most people do not like an area [[be it for real or imagined reasons), it will become abandoned because there are so many other areas to go.

Since at least 1970, the Detroit metro area has had about the same population [[~4 million)...yet over that time, the city has been emptying out while the suburbs have sprawled further into the countryside. Currently, there seems to be no incentives to rebuild the run-down areas of Detroit, except for civic pride. Unfortunately, the ones with the most civic pride usually don't have the money to rebuild a neighborhood.

[rb336]

I always thought being part of a society included concern for the well-being of others in the society on some basic level. I think that escapes some Detroiters!

It's the "I got mine" philosophy of selfishness that dominates the US.

A big part of Detroit's shrinkage problem was the development of the Interstates and freeways, which made it much more convenient to live away from the city. The lakes district, prior to I-75 and the Lodge Freeway, were vacation homes for people who lived in Detroit. After the highways, people decided to move there full-time

[Honky Tonk]

It's the "I got mine" philosophy of selfishness that dominates the US.

A big part of Detroit's shrinkage problem was the development of the Interstates and freeways, which made it much more convenient to live away from the city. The lakes district, prior to I-75 and the Lodge Freeway, were vacation homes for people who lived in Detroit. After the highways, people decided to move there full-time

Right, it wasn't the crime, incompetent government, dwindling City services, bad schools, or any of the other factors that drove people away, it was the freeways!

[Zug]

Right, it wasn't the crime, incompetent government, dwindling City services, bad schools, or any of the other factors that drove people away, it was the freeways!

You're arguing two different things...

Crime, schools, etc., etc. was a reason to leave. Freeways made living further out an easier/realistic option. These two ideas are compatible. Now let's please not make such a nice thread digress into another "freeways debate."

[Kass-UK]

We're planning a visit the UK next year - I fell in love with London years ago and have deep English roots myself.

London is a city of culture, Very diverse, and problems with race are just none existent to be honest, same for most of the UK.


In the UK, We have something called the 'Green Belt', Which is protective law for the countryside. Countryside classed as being under the 'Green Belt' means cant build houses or developments, without special, and hard to obtain licences. and with the consent of the majority of local residents.

It has been great reading about your city from people who actually live there.
Seems the media portray the US in a totally different light. [[shock value I guess you can call it), Guess that is expected though.

I did recently see a programme on US television about the UK, apparently were all benefit hungry, work shy, fighting beasts lol, I can assure you were not.

While I will admit our welfare system is flawed, in the fact that, Anyone from a different country can get a visa and come be given a house, rent all paid, with out of work benefits, child benefits etc... But on the other hand, there are simply not the jobs for everyone since the banking crisis.

You guys have to pay for your health care, Right? Private health insurance?
While we do have that option in the UK, The majority of people use the NHS [[National Health Service). Which takes a small amount of money from your pay packet every month, and in return, all hospitals free, hospital drugs free, operations etc... Prescription drugs are about £7 on every prescription. So massively discounted.


I guess our two countries are very very different. But share a lot of the same values. I will surely be stopping over in Detroit when I take a trip to the US.

Been great hearing from the real people of your city, and not just the obvious rubbish the media seems to churn out these days.

Thank you all for your replies,
All the best

[Honky Tonk]

You're arguing two different things...

Crime, schools, etc., etc. was THE reason to leave. Freeways made living further out an easier/realistic option. These two ideas are compatible. Now let's please not make such a nice thread digress into another "freeways debate."

There, I corrected your response. Let's not post nonsense about wanting to live year round in your summer home, shall we?

[samsonov]

I did recently see a programme on US television about the UK, apparently were all benefit hungry, work shy, fighting beasts lol, I can assure you were not.

I visited England back in 2003. I thought it was a wonderful country. Didn't get this impression at all. Goes to show you can't always believe what the media says! I'll be visiting Stornoway, Scotland next year to visit a friend who recently moved for work. I am very excited to be coming back to the UK!

You guys have to pay for your health care, Right? Private health insurance?
While we do have that option in the UK, The majority of people use the NHS [[National Health Service). Which takes a small amount of money from your pay packet every month, and in return, all hospitals free, hospital drugs free, operations etc... Prescription drugs are about £7 on every prescription. So massively discounted.

For the most part yes, you have to pay for your health care. Either out of pocket or employer paid but usually with a reduction in your pay. In my experience either is VERY expensive. For instance, when I was working as an engineer for a large multinational computer company health insurance reduced my paycheque by almost $400 a month.

You do have some options if you can't afford to pay though. My fiancée is a doctor at a local hospital and she says the hospital can't refuse to give you emergency care for any reason. On the other hand though, the hospital can send you a bill after and refer your case to collection and credit agencies. You're also not going to get any preventative care, strictly emergency care only.

Also, if you're below a certain income threshold or are over a certain age, Medicare or Medicaid pays for part [[or maybe all?) of medical costs.

I guess our two countries are very very different. But share a lot of the same values. I will surely be stopping over in Detroit when I take a trip to the US.

Be sure to come back to DetroitYes when you come to Detroit. I'm sure the people here will have plenty of ideas for things to do in the area.

[Zug]

There, I corrected your response. Let's not post nonsense about wanting to live year round in your summer home, shall we?

I don't think he was saying that. Anyway, there was major crime and social ills in Detroit in the 1920s...why did people stay in the city back then? Detroit had some of it's most drastic population decline BEFORE the '67 riots [[Detroit lost around 180,000 residents in the 1950s alone), when schools and safety were not major issues...why did people leave then? It took a combination of factors that led to Detroit's abandonment. Yes, crime & poor schools & all the things you named contributed, but it was not just the clear-cut picture you're trying to paint.

[Honky Tonk]

I don't think he was saying that. Anyway, there was major crime and social ills in Detroit in the 1920s...why did people stay in the city back then? Detroit had some of it's most drastic population decline BEFORE the '67 riots [[Detroit lost around 180,000 residents in the 1950s alone), when schools and safety were not major issues...why did people leave then? It took a combination of factors that led to Detroit's abandonment. Yes, crime & poor schools & all the things you named contributed, but it was not just the clear-cut picture you're trying to paint.

Thanx for the Detroit history lesson. Having lived through the exodus, I make brush strokes with a steady hand.

[DetroitPlanner]

Poobert says it best. The market rules here.

To be fair, unfortunately you can find places like this throughout the United States, but Detroit is the token child to which it is unfairly justified to be beaten by both the Right, Left, and Libratarian agendas.

To many who have never experienced this, this is an odd concept. Heck even most of those who live in nice cushy suburban areas can't see how the market rules even though they are a relatively short distance from these areas.

Most of what you are seeing is the result of private land ownership and bad enforcement. There just simply is not enough money to send out the legions of people required to enforce property owners to do what they must do. We have set-up recently legislation that will forfeit these lands to government should taxes go unpaid, this will improve things over time, but it did dig places like Detroit a huge hole.

[Detroitdave]

[QUOTE=poobert;384553]This is true. We also have a huge phobia of government here, dating back to your good King George III and beyond. Except in the most liberal US states, people generally decry government intervention in bolstering cities with things like green belts and restrictive zoning. So the market rules the day, and the market has not been kind to Detroit.

Also we in the US haven't really been forced to confront the problems of space and living in close quarters except in a few cities. England is quite the opposite, being one of the most urbanized countries in the world. In Greater Detroit, the "solution" has been, and continues to be, to just build outward and never look back.


I agree with this statement , in Europe each country is about the size of just one state here , so each country HAS to make due with the land size they are dealt with , most countries have different languages each European country has a main city a capital city and a few other bigger cities .
Most were ruled by a King trying to impress other kings and countries ect

Also Europe has had thousands of years and centuries to fight, and deal with, religions, land issues ,native peoples ect , we're basically still the "new world" and we made sure to go from "sea to shining sea" at to avoid that .

[Wesley Mouch]

Most of what you are seeing is the result of private land ownership and bad enforcement. There just simply is not enough money to send out the legions of people required to enforce property owners to do what they must do. We have set-up recently legislation that will forfeit these lands to government should taxes go unpaid, this will improve things over time, but it did dig places like Detroit a huge hole.

Certainly the current financial crisis in the US and Detroit hamper our ability to get things done, but I think the real causes run closer to the comments about Canadian provincial control vs. our 'local control' structure.

Detroit doesn't have the money. But the State of Michigan is running a surplus. And it has during most of the Detroit's decay. Thus, the problem isn't financial but is a political and structural issue.

Some say give Detroit more money, and its problems will vanish. I believe that Detroit's problems are reflective of a real structural problems with US governance as it relates to cities. For example, cities are unable to foreclose on property. WRONG, and perhaps changing.

In many cases, the solution exists. The State is willing to engage with Detroit to take on its challenges, but the city fights this tooth and nail. [[See EFM/EM discussions.) Why? Our governmental structures build lots of small fiefdoms with their own issues. Regionalism is very weak. Again, a governmental structure that needs to be changed if we want change. But often we seem to prefer our own little hell so long as everyone else stays away and let's us do as we please.

[DetroitPlanner]

I agree, but our structure does not allow this. Could you imagine the push-back if the State came in and tried to control everything all of the Cities and Villages did? The State surplus will benefit Detroit for State issues [[Schools, Transportation). Locals should be in control of things such as land use [[or lack of).

[rb336]

Right, it wasn't the crime, incompetent government, dwindling City services, bad schools, or any of the other factors that drove people away, it was the freeways!

The decline of Detroit started in the 50s. I-75 opened in 1959. M-10, in some form, has existed since the 1960s. White flight started well before the issues you raise

[Honky Tonk]

The decline of Detroit started in the 50s. I-75 opened in 1959. M-10, in some form, has existed since the 1960s. White flight started well before the issues you raise

The issues I raised started well before the '67 riots. Those were merely the cherry on the sundae. People didn't start taking off because the City was a warm and fuzzy place to be.

[sumas]

You're arguing two different things...

Crime, schools, etc., etc. was a reason to leave. Freeways made living further out an easier/realistic option. These two ideas are compatible. Now let's please not make such a nice thread digress into another "freeways debate."

Freeways certainly were a critical factor. Easy flight. At one point I drove my eldest 14 x 4 daily to make sure he was in a good school. So many problems but so many good and I mean good people remain. Friendliest city in the world. Sumas

[coracle]

Freeways certainly were a critical factor. Easy flight. At one point I drove my eldest 14 x 4 daily to make sure he was in a good school. So many problems but so many good and I mean good people remain. Friendliest city in the world. Sumas

The number of times I've read that the freeways are to blame for the demise of an area are legion; and bs. London has freeways also, but they are full of people trying to get in not out [[they charge vehicles for entering London). As far as flight is concerned, that's another bogus excuse; it is not a cause of demise it is the result of it; and in any case London has suffered its own [[white) flight [[about 50% at the moment) due to the funding of a multicultural policy; and it hasn't reduced its 10 million population. And although there are good people remaining in Detroit to call it the "Friendliest city in the world" needs a real stretch of the imagination.