215 Clinton was renumbered to what?

[grander54]

Family I am researching moved by 1921 and the people that were there in 1900 are also gone by then...haven't been able to zero in on new address using known names in either census or directory listings. Only other description I have is "part of the old Mullet farm". Can anyone help? Thanks!

[grander54]

I'm continuing to look at directory and census records and I'm close, I think, it might be 1331 Clinton, although no one is listed at this address in 1921.

[Brock7]

215 Clinton was renumbered to 1339.
From the pdf here, 4th link down:
http://stevemorse.org/census/changes...itChanges0.htm

David Roberts is listed at 215 Clinton in the 1895 city directory.
Bader Bros Bag Co is listed at 1339 Clinton in the 1928 city directory.
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/g/genpub/a...image&size=400

[EastsideAl]

215/1339 Clinton was on the north side of the street between Rivard and Russell, roughly where Nicolet Pl. in Lafayette Park is today. On the 1897 Sanborn map it appears as a dwelling. By the next map, in 1922, the dwelling appears to have been replaced by a small factory taking up the entire lot that is labelled as "auto upholstery mfg." The location was across the street and just to the west of the old Clinton School.

Here is an 1881 picture of the school from the Burton Historical collection that appears to have been taken from very near the address in question.

[grander54]

Eastside Al and Brock7....Thank YOU!!! I had found the David Roberts name but thought that was 1331, could just have been the copy/image I was looking at. My family was there from mid 1860s to 1889 or 1890. I love this photo, like stepping back in time. The family would have walked on that side walk! Excellent help, thanks again.

[grander54]

Brock7, thank you for including the links. I checked out the 1928 directory and noticed that in the 1400 block is St. John the Baptist Church where one of the daughters was married, a great side note to how close the lived to the church. I've been to the Steve Morse site and had never seen the section with the renumbering...great resource to have...thank you! Information like this makes me hopeful for what else I may find.

[Brock7]

I had a search in some of the older directory PDFs I have for names associated with 215 Clinton.

Clark's Business Directory 1870
Ritter, Frederick, engineer h. 215 Clinton.
Ritchie. James. boiler maker, h. 524 Congress e.
Bilode, Joseph, boiler maker, h. 217 Clinton.

Weeks City Directory 1875
Dezner Fred, blacksmith. h 458 Fort e.
Dezner Fred jr, boiler maker, bds 458 Fort e.
Dezner Hiram, boiler maker, bds 458 Fort e.

Weeks Directory 1885
Desner Frank F, boilermkr D D Boiler Wks, bds 458 Fort e.
Desner Frederick, boilermkr D D Boiler Wks, h 215 Clinton.
Desner Frederick A, blksmith, h 458 Fort east.
Desner Robert D, boilermkr D D Boiler Wks, bds 458 Fort e.
Ritter Charles J, boilermkr, bds 215 Clinton.
Ritchie John W, boilermkr Dry Dock Eng Wks. h 659 Franklin.
Ritchie Wm J, boilermkr, bds 591 Fort e.
Ritchie James, boilermkr, h 591 Fort e.

Polk's City Directory 1887
Frederick Desner [[Desner & Ritchie), h 215 Clinton ave.
Desner & Ritchie [[Frederick Desner, John W Ritchie), Proprs East End Boiler Works, foot St Aubin ave. [[See page 166.)
Charles Ritter, boilermkr. bds 215 Clinton ave.

Polk's City Directory 1895
Frederick Desner 810 Champlain
Maria Desner 458 Fort E
DRY GOODS - Desner A D, 122 St Aubin av.
James Ritchie, boilermkr, h 593 Fort e.
James Ritchie, boilermkr, h 257 13th.
John W Ritchie [[East End Boiler Works), h 788 Champlain
East End Boiler wks 13-17 St Aubin s w cor at Guoin

[marshamusic]

215 Clinton was renumbered to 1339.
From the pdf here, 4th link down:
http://stevemorse.org/census/changes...itChanges0.htm

David Roberts is listed at 215 Clinton in the 1895 city directory.
Bader Bros Bag Co is listed at 1339 Clinton in the 1928 city directory.
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/g/genpub/a...image&size=400

Do you know why those streets were renumbered?

[Brock7]

Here's the explanation from the PDF of the Detroit Dept. of Public Works pamphlet in my first post.

An Explanation of the Re-numbering Plan

THE PRESENT PLAN

Under the present plan, which has been discarded by most of the larger cities of the country, there is little, if any, relation existing between the numbers on parallel streets, even in the same neighborhood. For example, “907” Woodward Avenue is at the N.W. corner of Forest, while John R. Street, but one block distant and extending in the same general direction is numbered “691” at the corner of Forest. Similar instances prevail throughout the city.

In many instances half numbers only can be assigned to entrances to flats, stores, and upstairs entrances above stores for the reason that only one full number is allowed for each twenty feet of frontage, and it frequently happens that more than one entrance occurs within this twenty foot limit. Tenants and owners alike strenuously object to the enforced use of the half numbers.

Under the new plan, both of these conditions mentioned above are avoided.

THE NEW PLAN

Under the new plan, all streets extending in the same general direction will be numbered alike at the intersection of the same cross street, and consequently, if the location of a number is known on any street, the location of a like number on any other street extending in the same direction will also be known. For example: No. 4700 Second Boulevard will be located at the corner of Forest, and every other street extending northerly and crossing Forest Avenue will likewise be numbered 4700 at the comer of Forest. Another example: Bagg Street will be numbered 1900 at the N. W. corner of Twelfth Street, and every other street extending westerly and crossing Twelfth will be numbered 1900 at the N.W. corner of Twelfth Street.

Another point: All streets extending in the same general direction, no matter where they may start, will be numbered as if they did start at a common Base Line.

A separate number is allowed for each ten feet of frontage on each side of all streets, instead of twenty feet now in effect. Thus each entrance can and will be assigned a full number.

HOW THE NEW PLAN WAS WORKED OUT

Base Lines. Streets extending North and South will begin numbering with “One Hundred” at a Base Line approximately at right angle with and at the foot of Woodward Avenue. This Base Line extends easterly through Essex Avenue, and westerly follows the line of the Wabash Railroad. The numbers will increase in both directions from this Base Line, and the few streets extending south of this Base Line in the Eastern and Western parts of the city will bear the prefix “South.”

Streets extending East and West will begin numbering with “One” at a Base Line extending through Woodward Avenue from the Detroit River to the Six Mile Road; and through John R. Street from the Six Mile Road to the City Limits. It is necessary to transfer this Base Line from Woodward Avenue to John R. Street north of the Six Mile Road for the very good reason that above the Six Mile Road there are not streets that start from or cross Woodward Avenue at right angles, and there are no streets that extend north of the Six Mile Road parallel with Woodward Avenue, while this relation does exist in regard to John R. Street, in this locality.

Streets extending from this Base Line in both directions under the same name will bear the prefix “East” or “West.”

Numbers Allowed Each Block Etc. Units of one hundred numbers are allowed each city block, as nearly as practical, but where a city block exceeds five hundred feet in length an additional unit of one hundred numbers is allowed. Unused numbers in a unit will be dropped at the end of each block. To rectify or even up the numbers at intersecting streets to correspond with the numbers on parallel streets, not only the unused numbers in a unit will be dropped, but also the unused units will be dropped at the end of blocks where necessary.

Even and Odd Numbers. Even and Odd Numbers will be assigned to streets in the same manner as under the old plan: the even numbers on the right hand side and the odd on the left, facing out from the Base Lines.

The Layout of the City. By glancing at a Detroit City Map it will be found that many streets extending in the same general direction are not exactly parallel, that many streets do not extend through with adjoining streets, and also that many city blocks vary greatly in length. On account of these conditions, to maintain the same numbers in relative blocks in streets extending in the same general direction, it becomes necessary to drop not only unused numbers in a unit, but unused units as well. This condition prevails in Cleveland and in other cities numbered on the new Detroit plan.

For example: In the down town district, it is six blocks from Woodward to Second on Fort Street West, and the number “600” is assigned to the N.W. corner of Fort Street at Second.

North of the Boulevard, due to the fact that intervening streets do not extend through, and also to the fact that Second slants toward Woodward, it is but one city block of about 565 feet from Woodward Avenue to Second. Yet to maintain the uniform number “600” at the N.W. corner of all streets crossing Second Avenue, all unused numbers and units of numbers below “600” are dropped at the end of the block and the next block from Second to Third begins with the number “600” at the N.W. corner of Second.

It is reasonable to expect that adverse criticism will be heard in regard to the new plan from time to time, but it is firmly believed that when the new plan has been in operation a short time it will merit the confidence and approval of the public, as has been the case in all the larger cities where it has been put in effect.

It should be remembered that:
1. The new numbers must not be used before January 1, 1921.
2. The old numbers must not be used after January 1, 1921.
3. The old numbers should not be removed before March 1, 1921.

DEPT. OF PUBLIC WORKS,
Joseph A. Martin
Commissioner.

[Brock7]

I noticed that listed in the 1928 directory there was a COGIC at 1420-24 Clinton, a little past Russell, and wondered if that is the one you were referring to in the other thread. 1424 was 254 before renumbering.

[marshamusic]

Here's the explanation from the PDF of the Detroit Dept. of Public Works pamphlet in my first post.

An Explanation of the Re-numbering Plan

THE PRESENT PLAN

Under the present plan, which has been discarded by most of the larger cities of the country, there is little, if any, relation existing between the numbers on parallel streets, even in the same neighborhood. For example, “907” Woodward Avenue is at the N.W. corner of Forest, while John R. Street, but one block distant and extending in the same general direction is numbered “691” at the corner of Forest. Similar instances prevail throughout the city.

In many instances half numbers only can be assigned to entrances to flats, stores, and upstairs entrances above stores for the reason that only one full number is allowed for each twenty feet of frontage, and it frequently happens that more than one entrance occurs within this twenty foot limit. Tenants and owners alike strenuously object to the enforced use of the half numbers.

Under the new plan, both of these conditions mentioned above are avoided.

THE NEW PLAN

Under the new plan, all streets extending in the same general direction will be numbered alike at the intersection of the same cross street, and consequently, if the location of a number is known on any street, the location of a like number on any other street extending in the same direction will also be known. For example: No. 4700 Second Boulevard will be located at the corner of Forest, and every other street extending northerly and crossing Forest Avenue will likewise be numbered 4700 at the comer of Forest. Another example: Bagg Street will be numbered 1900 at the N. W. corner of Twelfth Street, and every other street extending westerly and crossing Twelfth will be numbered 1900 at the N.W. corner of Twelfth Street.

Another point: All streets extending in the same general direction, no matter where they may start, will be numbered as if they did start at a common Base Line.

A separate number is allowed for each ten feet of frontage on each side of all streets, instead of twenty feet now in effect. Thus each entrance can and will be assigned a full number.

HOW THE NEW PLAN WAS WORKED OUT

Base Lines. Streets extending North and South will begin numbering with “One Hundred” at a Base Line approximately at right angle with and at the foot of Woodward Avenue. This Base Line extends easterly through Essex Avenue, and westerly follows the line of the Wabash Railroad. The numbers will increase in both directions from this Base Line, and the few streets extending south of this Base Line in the Eastern and Western parts of the city will bear the prefix “South.”

Streets extending East and West will begin numbering with “One” at a Base Line extending through Woodward Avenue from the Detroit River to the Six Mile Road; and through John R. Street from the Six Mile Road to the City Limits. It is necessary to transfer this Base Line from Woodward Avenue to John R. Street north of the Six Mile Road for the very good reason that above the Six Mile Road there are not streets that start from or cross Woodward Avenue at right angles, and there are no streets that extend north of the Six Mile Road parallel with Woodward Avenue, while this relation does exist in regard to John R. Street, in this locality.

Streets extending from this Base Line in both directions under the same name will bear the prefix “East” or “West.”

Numbers Allowed Each Block Etc. Units of one hundred numbers are allowed each city block, as nearly as practical, but where a city block exceeds five hundred feet in length an additional unit of one hundred numbers is allowed. Unused numbers in a unit will be dropped at the end of each block. To rectify or even up the numbers at intersecting streets to correspond with the numbers on parallel streets, not only the unused numbers in a unit will be dropped, but also the unused units will be dropped at the end of blocks where necessary.

Even and Odd Numbers. Even and Odd Numbers will be assigned to streets in the same manner as under the old plan: the even numbers on the right hand side and the odd on the left, facing out from the Base Lines.

The Layout of the City. By glancing at a Detroit City Map it will be found that many streets extending in the same general direction are not exactly parallel, that many streets do not extend through with adjoining streets, and also that many city blocks vary greatly in length. On account of these conditions, to maintain the same numbers in relative blocks in streets extending in the same general direction, it becomes necessary to drop not only unused numbers in a unit, but unused units as well. This condition prevails in Cleveland and in other cities numbered on the new Detroit plan.

For example: In the down town district, it is six blocks from Woodward to Second on Fort Street West, and the number “600” is assigned to the N.W. corner of Fort Street at Second.

North of the Boulevard, due to the fact that intervening streets do not extend through, and also to the fact that Second slants toward Woodward, it is but one city block of about 565 feet from Woodward Avenue to Second. Yet to maintain the uniform number “600” at the N.W. corner of all streets crossing Second Avenue, all unused numbers and units of numbers below “600” are dropped at the end of the block and the next block from Second to Third begins with the number “600” at the N.W. corner of Second.

It is reasonable to expect that adverse criticism will be heard in regard to the new plan from time to time, but it is firmly believed that when the new plan has been in operation a short time it will merit the confidence and approval of the public, as has been the case in all the larger cities where it has been put in effect.

It should be remembered that:
1. The new numbers must not be used before January 1, 1921.
2. The old numbers must not be used after January 1, 1921.
3. The old numbers should not be removed before March 1, 1921.

DEPT. OF PUBLIC WORKS,
Joseph A. Martin
Commissioner.

Oh, I'm so sorry Brock7; I called myself looking at all of the links you posted before I asked that question. I guess that link took so long to load that I just moved on and didn't see it. Thanks for reproducing this.

This is all so fascinating; the why's as to these streets that I've seen all of my life.

All of the explanations made sense to me except this one, I didn't understand:

"It is necessary to transfer this Base Line from Woodward Avenue to John R. Street north of the Six Mile Road for the very good reason that above the Six Mile Road there are not streets that start from or cross Woodward Avenue at right angles, and there are no streets that extend north of the Six Mile Road parallel with Woodward Avenue, while this relation does exist in regard to John R. Street, in this locality."

Seems that if it's parallel with John R, they should be parallel with Woodward, at least at 6 mile and soon there after. Is this the reason that in the Northern Suburbs, streets are not called "East" east of Woodward but further east, east of John R?

Thank you kindly. This is so cool.

[Jimaz]

I'll venture out onto a relatively riskless limb and predict that someday we'll do away with street addresses altogether and just use GPS coordinates instead — globally.

Japanese Addresses

[Brock7]

EastsideAl gave the best explanation in this thread about John R becoming the east-west divide north of 6 Mile, so I'll just quote him.

South of Six Mile, the Detroit street grid in the center of the city follows the old 18th and 19th Century directional pattern set downtown by the angle of the river. So all of the "northward" streets actually run NNW.

North of Six Mile though, in the "true" directional grid set by the Northwest Ordinance survey, and followed in the rest of the state [[and most of the U.S. west of the original colonies), asserts itself. So, as gazhekwe states above, while Woodward continues on its eccentric path, John R, along with most other north-south streets, straightens out to a true northerly course, and runs that way off into Oakland County, nearly all the way out to Rochester.

If you look at a map, and note the rest of the grid of major streets in Detroit north of Six Mile, it really only makes geographic sense that the east-west dividing line switches over to John R there. Especially since this part of Detroit is made up of former township land annexed into the city beginning in 1916, in which all of the lots had already been platted on a true north-south axis.

[grander54]

Hi again BROCK7, I've looked at so many different years of directories, I feel like I know them better for old Detroit, than from where I grew up here in California! The Frederick Ritter is my guy...immigrant ancestor from Germany. The earliest I find him is 1860 in Detroit. His daughter married a Dresner, the boilermaker you see in the directory listing. They lived at 215 Clinton after Frederick died in 1877. Frederick's wife married a John Ritter. I haven't figured out what the relation is, but I suspect she married her 1st husband's brother. Tangled web, but the directories have been invaluable as has the help from people that use this site!

[marshamusic]

EastsideAl gave the best explanation in this thread about John R becoming the east-west divide north of 6 Mile, so I'll just quote him.

Thanks Brock7 and EastsideAl.

I never knew this. This explains why my husband, who is from Chicago, always refers to what I think of as due north as "northwest", as this is what the compass in his car reads.

I have a poem that I wrote called "Ode to John R", as it is a main artery of my childhood. Even though I always say that Woodward Ave. is the center of the universe, little did I know that it is John R that is the most accurate dividing line.

Fascinating stuff.

Speaking of streets, what is the origin of Old Woodward, in Birmingham?

[marshamusic]

I noticed that listed in the 1928 directory there was a COGIC at 1420-24 Clinton, a little past Russell, and wondered if that is the one you were referring to in the other thread. 1424 was 254 before renumbering.

I'm bumping this back up; it took me a while to find the church's 80th Anniversary booklet [[published in 2009), with the old address within.

Yes! the address is listed in this book was 1420.

An excerpt from the booklet:

"Shortly after the turn of the century, Elder Isaiah, W. Winans arrived in Detroit, Michigan from Mississippi, where he soon was acquainted in fellowship with the few holiness churches established here. He and his small group [which included my grandmother] were not long in opening the their first church located at 1420 Clinton Street, not far from downtown Detroit, in 1919........Those gone on to be with the lord recalled, 'praising the Lord around the warm glow of radiating heat from a pot bellied stove.'"

I have read those words many times since the anniversary celebration in 2009; but it is not until this thread that I was able to consider where the church used to be.

By my estimation, at the location of Clinton Street and Russell, the church would be right in the middle of what is Lafayette Park [[the park, proper) today.

Brock7, sorry for such a late reply and again, thank you much.