1888 Detroit Map - with Hastings

[marshamusic]

http://www.change.org/petitions/city...-service-drive

Bring Back Hastings Street!

Awesome!!! I'm signature #2!

Dang, why didn't I think of this? Well, glad you did. I just posted on Facebook; this could go far.........

[jtf1972]

Awesome!!! I'm signature #2!

Dang, why didn't I think of this? Well, glad you did. I just posted on Facebook; this could go far.........

Let's hope!

[marshamusic]

Let's hope!

There is an energy building, and a convergence of folks thinking about Hastings. My own "One Woman Show - Live from Hastings Street".

There is the newest production of the Mosaic Youth Theatre, "Hastings Street" that has drawn large crowds [[tomorrow, Sunday May 19, is the last performance) and is great musical that is also a serious history lesson on the Detroit of those times.

Many oral histories now center around Hastings St., as it's elder residents now feel "safe" to say what happened in the destruction of Black Bottom [[the destruction of which began over a decade before the destruction of Hastings).

Also, as boomers like me begin to tell the stories of the role of this trauma in our families [[my oral piece for NPR/StoryCorp has run often on WDET.

As evidenced by this thread, there is a desire for an objective look at this past, particularly as we embark upon the development of the Detroit of the future.

I am glad to have lived long enough to see the arc of the day my father held my hand on edge of that dirt crevasse - that used to be the back of his record shop on Hastings St. - to a day in which there is an impulse to restore its name.

Hallelujiah.

[Danny]

Bring back Hastings St. Not going to happen Detroit is one big Black Bottom with some Paradise Valley.

[jtf1972]

Not to name names, but I have found the ignore feature to be invaluable around here. Occasionally I view a post by those who I have ignored just to remind myself why I did it. Ahh.. the negativity that cripples so much. I can do without it [[and highly recommend it to everybody else!)

[RickBeall]

Danny, she is just trying to put a sign on a street. I think that can be accomplished.

Now that everyone knows where you Dad's shop was Marsha, maybe people will start posing in that spot. It would be good to accumulate as many old pictures as you can, put them in a folder on facebook or somewhere, and people can start posing there now, and those can go in there too. The next guitar I make, I'm going to pose there.

If it catches on, it can be part of your presentation.

[EastsideAl]

When my grandmother was a child her family moved from their old home on Meldrum out to a brand new house her uncle built on what became Eastlawn [[I believe it was then called Oneida). They were one of the first families on their block and my grandma remembers that all of the land around them was still quite marshy, with huge clouds of mosquitoes rising out of it in the warm weather.

They could sit on their porch north of what became Vernor [[then Waterloo) and see the interurban cars running on Jefferson, which had been built up a little above the level of the surrounding swampy land. The basement in that house was only half-finished, in part because water was constantly seeping in. Even after my great uncle tried to finish it, the dampness and seepage continued to defeat several generations of my family.

[EastsideAl]

Good luck with your project Marsha. It sounds like a great idea. I've always found it a bit unseemly that the city was in such a hurry back in the late '50s and early '60s to blot Hastings from the map. To my knowledge, after the building of the Chrysler Fwy. and the renaming of the service drive, along with the renaming of the remaining portion south of Jefferson [[as Schweizer Pl.), all that was left of Hastings was a few isolated industrial blocks between the Ford Fwy. and Grand Blvd.

[marshamusic]

Well Al, I can't take credit for it; Jtf1972 started the petition. Though perhaps my voice has been added to others with an interest in this old avenue - so in that sense, thanks.

You know, at Flower Day at the Eastern Market today, it occurred to me, as it always does, that Burt's reminds me of Hastings street, too. The hustle and bustle, its presence as a place where blacks and whites gather to eat, party, and listen to music.

Also, there's are the old timers who gather there, some of them old Hastings Street men, adding that good old flavor. You know, the fact that Russell St. was the next street East of Hastings, adds to the "feel" of that block to me; not just Burt's but that Block south to Division.

It might be way the light shines all day, and at sunset; something that my eye cannot forget.

[marshamusic]

The entire lower peninsula has rivers flowing to the great lakes from the center of the state. Once south of the Clinton River valley, there is little grade to the land, so the rivers [[many now underground in the sewer system) were slow and tended to have very marshy and boggy "valleys".

Thank you Hermod. So, I'm finally getting something that's probably obvious to everyone else.

Sewers were created from rivers/creeks? Water is enclosed and then carries waste away? So underneath the city are sewers, which are basically enclosed bodies of moving water?

[marshamusic]

Rainwater and snow melt will soak into the ground where it becomes groundwater - unless it is diverted into storm drains from hard-surfaced roads, parking lots, etc. - in which case it flows directly into the surface waterways.

Dig a deep enough hole in the ground and eventually water will seep in and fill the bottom of the hole. This is the top of the water table or more specifically the top of the first layer of groundwater. Where I live in Shelby Twp., the top of the first layer of groundwater is about six to eight feet below ground level and this groundwater sits on a hard silty layer of soil that begins at about 30 feet below ground level. A homeowner can sink a shallow well into this first layer of groundwater and pump out a modest amount of water for sprinkling their individual lawn or garden. My condominium association had to drill through the first layer to reach a deeper groundwater layer at 115 feet before we could find sufficient groundwater to pump 50 gallons per minute to irrigate our large landscaped areas. This second and deeper layer of groundwater does not necessarily intermingle with the first layer and in some places if does not exist at all. You can go a mile in any direction from our condo association and find entirely different groundwater and subsurface soil situations.

A first layer of groundwater will usually have a lateral flow that takes it towards a natural waterway. However the rate of flow is very slow, often only one or two hundred feet per year.

Depending upon recent precipitation amounts and the types and depths of underlying soils, the first layer of groundwater can sometimes be found very close to - or at - the surface of the ground. If there are obstructions to the flow of the groundwater created by denser soils beneath it or between it and a natural waterway, a marsh or swamp will form at the surface.

The early farmers in Macomb County [[and elsewhere) built the first dirt roads in the swampy areas by digging two parallel ditches and throwing the muck towards the middle, where it was leveled out to form the roadbed of the "highway". They then cleared the trees from their property and installed field tiles in buried trenches that drained the groundwater towards the ditches, which were designed to carry the water towards the nearest creek or river. The system of field tiles and ditches had the effect of lowering the top of the groundwater beneath their fields and allowed them to travel and plant crops in what had previously been marshy terrain.

WOW! Thank you so much MikeG for taking the time to explain all of this. So this is how ground becomes "marshy".

Although the trees that are here in Lafayette Park were a part of the planned landscaping of the development, if they any indication of what was naturally there before, the presence of so much growth had to contribute to the "swampy" land.

I thank you very much.

[marshamusic]

When my grandmother was a child her family moved from their old home on Meldrum out to a brand new house her uncle built on what became Eastlawn [[I believe it was then called Oneida). They were one of the first families on their block and my grandma remembers that all of the land around them was still quite marshy, with huge clouds of mosquitoes rising out of it in the warm weather.

They could sit on their porch north of what became Vernor [[then Waterloo) and see the interurban cars running on Jefferson, which had been built up a little above the level of the surrounding swampy land. The basement in that house was only half-finished, in part because water was constantly seeping in. Even after my great uncle tried to finish it, the dampness and seepage continued to defeat several generations of my family.

There must have been little there, to be able to see from north of Vernor, to Jefferson!

Don't you recall Al, that Vernor was called Vernor Highway? I know that all older folks I know call it that.

So I'm thinking that Vernor was a major thoroughfare going through town, especially since there is a West Vernor; but you say that it used to be Waterloo, so obviously it didn't go "all the way" across town. I know Vernor turns into Waterloo at the city's end, but I didn't know it used to BE Waterloo.

[RickBeall]

Another way in which swamps form is when a healthy lake fills with sediment from dead plants, it becomes boggy. Birch trees can grow in the wet ground, they eventually create enough soil for the hardwoods to grow. Lakes have births, lives, and deaths, just like people. They just live longer. Some of the bogs in the the Detroit area may have been small lakes or ponds created by the glaciers.

[marshamusic]

My grandfather [[b. 1891 and baptized at St. John-St. Luke) lived on Hastings St. between [today's] Monroe and Lafayette. His father was Irish and his mother was German. The neighborhood was German; his best friend's dad owned a bar on Lafayette. As a young boy, he used to hang out at the Dodge Brothers garage at the corner of Hastings and Monroe!! The family moved east over near Water Works Park sometime in the 1910s.

Wow. Dodge Brothers garage....wow. Thanks!

[EastsideAl]

There must have been little there, to be able to see from north of Vernor, to Jefferson!

There were very few houses out there then, and very few trees in that swampy area. Since Jefferson was raised it was visible off in the distance. There was some sad irony in my grandmother's recollections though, since her father had been killed a few years earlier while driving a car that collided with a Jefferson interurban in what is now St. Clair Shores.

Don't you recall Al, that Vernor was called Vernor Highway? I know that all older folks I know call it that.

So I'm thinking that Vernor was a major thoroughfare going through town, especially since there is a West Vernor; but you say that it used to be Waterloo, so obviously it didn't go "all the way" across town. I know Vernor turns into Waterloo at the city's end, but I didn't know it used to BE Waterloo.

The Vernor Highway was created in the early 1920's as the first part of a plan to alleviate increasing auto traffic congestion by linking up previously separate streets to create direct through routes for crosstown traffic. 3 streets were primarily used for routing Vernor: Waterloo on the east side, High St. north of downtown, and Dix [[the Dixie Highway) on the west side, as well as short parts of some other streets and some newly built sections, like the Roosevelt Park section in front of the Michigan Central train station. The project was originally called the "Dix-High-Waterloo highway project" before the city settled on the name Vernor Hwy.

In the 1960s the central High St. section was replaced by the Fisher Fwy. [[I-75), creating the 2 unconnected sections of Vernor we see today. And, for some reason, the City of Grosse Pointe never changed the name of the street, so a short section between Cadieux and Fisher Rd. is still signed as Waterloo

[RickBeall]

And Vernor Highway was named after the pharmacist who invented Vernor's soda.

[jackie5275]

It is hard to imagine, but here it is:



An undated photo from the Burton Historical Collection labelled "View of Paton Street". The view is from Clinton St. looking north towards Gratiot. It looks to be from the 1870s or 80s. By the 1890s the Recorders Court building would be on the right.

The building at the extreme left is the Police Court, and directly behind it, out of view, is the Wayne County Jail. The jail was brand new in 1863, having opened on New Years Day [[although there has been a jail at this site since 1847....

Hey Al, thanks for posting this photo. Amazing how this street looked then. Even more amazing is how the Wayne County Jail has pretty much been in that same area for 166 years. I showed this pic to some colleagues who usually park in that alley now. They can't believe it's the same place.

[marshamusic]

Concerning the rich soil of Black Bottom, I remember reading that the early Detroit area was viewed as a malarial swamp. It was a major cause of death in the early Detroit fort. I lived in a couple places in Hamtramck, and have always been surprised by the deepness of the black soil. In my current back yard off Conant, the black earth is at least 2 feet deep.

I think the swampland and subsequent rich land extended inland many miles. I think Sterling Heights still has these huge drainage ditches the size of river beds.

When you are on I-75 South taking the East exit to the Davisdson, there is a sharp bend and a natural artesian well which continually tries to drip from the wall onto the curb. The city has an ongoing battle keeping it "bottled up". A couple years ago they ignored it too long. I saw a mini van behind us spin 180 degrees when that little tongue of slime tickled his wheels on that tight turn.

Lot's of water in the area. That video of the "ghost rivers" was fascinating! I love the idea of daylighting them.

And if we are talking about water, then using my "literary" muscle [[Greek 4 elements echo [insert sound effects here]) , I bring back the fire you talked about earlier in this thread.

Fire in Detroit is still very much alive. You of course have the arson and the fires set in the past on Devils night, but in Hamtramck our house insurance is sky high because the business owners [[I suspect the foreign business owners) view insurance as a mere loan to the bank, which they withdraw if the business fails. It must be part of the business plan, when a fruit market fails in Hamtramck, those neat piles of oranges, bananas and red apples burst into flame. I have seen several fruit markets and many other business erupt in flame when the business fails. And I pay the bills.

So that is our legacy fire and water. And black earth. Another Greek element! The ironic thing about dirt is that you think of it as giving life, but it is made up of the corpses of dead things. Dirt is nothing but dead things. Of course there is sand and little bits of inorganic rock and pebbles in it. But the main body of it, the thing that gives it its "dirtness", is dead stuff.

The older geology of Michigan and Detroit is fascinating also. The entire age of Dinosaurs was scraped off the face of Michigan and deposited in Ohio. The glaciers then deposited soil and rock from Canada here. Rocks not native to a region are called glacial eccentrics.

Just as successive waves of immigrants washed through Hastings Street, the very soil and rock of the area was also an immigrant.

I think a lot of the Detroit area was a hilly sort of formation called "knob and kettle", and it took a generation of immigrant workers with horses and carts to smooth it all out as we know it today.

If the white-knuckled, terra-forming hand of man relaxes, loses its grip, how will Detroit look in 100 years or 400 years? Will the Savoyard Creek daylight itself?

Or, due to global warming, will the 4th Greek element, Air, sweep in and turn us all into just another layer of sediment?

Maybe nothing will be left but the records from Joe's Record Shop, still spinning ... somewhere.

Looks like you should be writing your book. Good thoughts on lots of stuff. Yeah, the fire thing. I lost a home [[my family home, in Highland Park) in a fire, an electrical fire, almost 6 years ago.

The loss of property and possessions is so overwhelming, it still wallops me out of nowhere every now and then, even today.

The idea of arson is so.....beyond. Having survived the fire [[thank God, with few material things, but life and limb intact), The destruction is so great, so profound, so....existential, it is hard to contemplate the mind of someone doing it on purpose.

But fire runs deep in this city.

[gnome]

attached is a rather large tiff file of what appears to be Hastings, late 1940s.

library of congress:
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/master/pnp/fsa...0/8d25381u.tif

[MikeM]

We discussed that photo on a previous thread a few years ago. I remember doing some searching through directories to identify the street, but I can't remember the results.

[marshamusic]

attached is a rather large tiff file of what appears to be Hastings, late 1940s.

library of congress:
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/master/pnp/fsa...0/8d25381u.tif

Great photo Gnome. Why do you say it's Hastings? [[I don't know those businesses so I don't have any indicators).

[Jimg]

Silverline Cafe, 3714 Hastings, cor. Livingstone. Active 1941-57
There may be other cafe's w/same name, but odds are this is Hastings Street.

[Brock7]

Just to confirm, from the 1928 directory:
3708 Schwartz Bros gros
3720 Yee Jackson lndry

[townonenorth]

Comparing the results from 1928 directory to a list I have of businesses in 1933 in and around Hastings street. There was a huge turnover in businesses in the intervening 5 years, but that's to be expected with the Depression, I suppose.

[marshamusic]

Thanks JimG, Brock7 and townonenorth. You guys have such cool resources!

Thanks for the confirmation on Hastings. I was excited to see also, in Brock7's 1928 directory, the address of my fathers record shop, 3530 Hastings. He did not open until 1945; however, my brother's recollection is that he acquired the storefront from a on older Jewish woman, perhaps widowed, who owned the store and was going out of business.

Brock's directory says that there was a "Kosher Grocer" there, in 1929, so it is possible that this might be the same store owner. Even if not, perhaps the store might have been handed down to another Jewish person, and maybe that could be the person from whom my father got his store.

Perhaps townonenorth might look in your 1933 list, to see what was listed for 3530?

Hastings is really quite bedraggled, even in those early years, eh?

This is exciting! Thank you!