A Day Without an Arab

[canuck]

I remember there was trouble brewing in Los Angeles years ago because a lot of black people felt Korean shop owners were not welcoming of blacks in their businesses. Something that didnt help was the surly look or lack of eye contact which in Korean culture is a sign of politeness. Smiling is also not a big feature of korean human relations, so that kind of thing is bound not to help.

The risks involved in running a small business in Detroit are pretty high, mister Dawsey should have pointed that out to fairly balance things. Of course if only a microscopic amount of money spent on the Iraq and Afghanistan wars were put to funding education, rebuilding cities like Detroit, and stopping the gangbanger nonsense, the "D" would be all it can be and more.


Manhattan has lowered its crime rate tremendously in the last twenty years. A big reason for that is the increased police presence to serve and protect an increasingly wealthy populace and the evacuation of indigents to other boroughs.

Which begs the "unPC" question, where are the would be small business owners that will create employment and help sustain the city in that sense?

[Newdetroit]

First off, if you are an American Citizen, you have the right to open a store anywhere in this country. Second, you have the right to live wherever you wish. There is nothing to stop African Americans from purchasing a party store when it comes up for sale also. They trade hands fairly regularly and a seller will sell to the best offer.

Secondly, it is amazing that those people who speak about the disrespect by Chaldeans and Arabs fail to discuss the disrespect that these owners face on a daily basis from store patrons. Being cussed at, racist comments hurled at them, and not to mention shoplifting, graffiti, hold ups, and the list goes on. Kids under the legal age trying to buy alcohol or cigarettes who are denied the sale, trust me..they don't say.."ok sir." So let's put things in perspective.

[Zacha341]

In a related post I mentioned both sides of this issue. I've heard the racial slurs from both sides and find it ugly and stupid on all counts. Working in some of the Detroit's most dangerous, grim areas it's not a walk-in-the-park for these merchants [[the honest and decent, the rude and scammers among them).

Where I find clean, safer stores in the city I can GO INTO and receive professional treatment to purchase what I need, I do.

Secondly, it is amazing that those people who speak about the disrespect by Chaldeans and Arabs fail to discuss the disrespect that these owners face on a daily basis from store patrons. Being cussed at, racist comments hurled at them, and not to mention shoplifting, graffiti, hold ups, and the list goes on. Kids under the legal age trying to buy alcohol or cigarettes who are denied the sale, trust me..they don't say.."ok sir." So let's put things in perspective.

[Honky Tonk]

First off, if you are an American Citizen, you have the right to open a store anywhere in this country. Second, you have the right to live wherever you wish. There is nothing to stop African Americans from purchasing a party store when it comes up for sale also. They trade hands fairly regularly and a seller will sell to the best offer.

Secondly, it is amazing that those people who speak about the disrespect by Chaldeans and Arabs fail to discuss the disrespect that these owners face on a daily basis from store patrons. Being cussed at, racist comments hurled at them, and not to mention shoplifting, graffiti, hold ups, and the list goes on. Kids under the legal age trying to buy alcohol or cigarettes who are denied the sale, trust me..they don't say.."ok sir." So let's put things in perspective.

First off, I'm a little surprised @ the title of this thread, and the fact that it's allowed to continue. Maybe it's me, but it sounds just a bit racist. As I've posted before, having been on both sides of the Lexan, it's no picnic. People think you deal all day long with poor but proud folks, and it isn't like that for the most part, though some do "get it" and do act respectably. People walk through the door antagonistic from the get, feel they have a right to either credit, free merchandise, or short-changing you, [["Hey man, I'm $.50 short, let me have a ......."), and it goes on all day long, day in day out. People get attitudes, and tempers run short. You're always keened and honed, and can't let your guard down for a second. To the people that don't have a choice to "go somewhere else", it becomes a game, somewhere to go for a confrontation with "the man". Remembering what it was like when gas station and party stores weren't exclusively run by middle-easterners, you couldn't find operating party-stores or gas stations in Detroit. As the exodus began, no one stepped up to the plate. Middle-easterners WEREN'T given credit by established banks. They had to pool their money together from benefactors from the old country, took out a promissory note, and began buying, opening, and running stores and gas stations. Some even went as far as building new stores and gas stations in the most decrepit neighborhoods. I remember watching the scenario with apprehension. As people left for good they came in to fill the void.

[hortonz]

Detroit's problems were caused by large multi-national corporations who were more than willing to take advantage of the city's large pool of unskilled labor when they saw how much money the could make off the working stiff and were quick to abandon the city when they discovered they could make even MORE money by moving high-paying manufacturing jobs to third world countries where workers were paid slave wages and denied the most basic human rights.

[Honky Tonk]

Detroit's problems were caused by large multi-national corporations who were more than willing to take advantage of the city's large pool of unskilled labor when they saw how much money the could make off the working stiff and were quick to abandon the city when they discovered they could make even MORE money by moving high-paying manufacturing jobs to third world countries where workers were paid slave wages and denied the most basic human rights.

To quote someone from another thread: "Complete and utter bullshit!"

[iheartthed]

we all do well to remember that a few generations ago very similar accusations of rudeness, lack of respect, closed employment, and fraudulent practices were routinely thrown at Jewish shopkeepers, who were then the primary operators of small stores in black and poor neighborhoods.

And Jewish shopkeepers were the predominant business owners in black neighborhoods for the same reasons that Arab/Chaldeans own a plurality of the establishments in Detroit's black neighborhoods.

I don't understand this line of thought that Arabs/Chaldeans wouldn't easily be replaced by another group of ethnic immigrants should they just disappear. The way some of you are talking, you'd think they were running charities instead of for profit businesses...

[mwilbert]

I don't understand this line of thought that Arabs/Chaldeans wouldn't easily be replaced by another group of ethnic immigrants should they just disappear. The way some of you are talking, you'd think they were running charities instead of for profit businesses...

I guess it depends upon how you interpret the word "easily". I'm sure there would still be some kind of similar stores in Detroit if all the Chaldeans decided to go into some other line of work, but I would think it might be some time before there were as many of them as there are now--if you have an ecosystem and you disturb it you can be reasonably sure the niches will all end up filled again, but not necessarily right away or in the same way. Maybe we would end up with all Bengali-run markets but otherwise everything would be the same. Hard to know.

[iheartthed]

I guess it depends upon how you interpret the word "easily". I'm sure there would still be some kind of similar stores in Detroit if all the Chaldeans decided to go into some other line of work, but I would think it might be some time before there were as many of them as there are now--if you have an ecosystem and you disturb it you can be reasonably sure the niches will all end up filled again, but not necessarily right away or in the same way. Maybe we would end up with all Bengali-run markets but otherwise everything would be the same. Hard to know.

Well, of course, if all the Chaldean shop owners did something irrational like selling their businesses simultaneously, then yes it would cause a disruption in the market. But the tone of this post sounds like the op is suggesting that no one except Chaldeans would operate stores in Detroit. That's absurd.

[Gistok]

Well, of course, if all the Chaldean shop owners did something irrational like selling their businesses simultaneously, then yes it would cause a disruption in the market. But the tone of this post sounds like the op is suggesting that no one except Chaldeans would operate stores in Detroit. That's absurd.

No, I don't think that anyone really said that. It's just that there's a preponderance of Arab and Chaldeans concentrated in the metro area. In other metro areas there are other nationalities... such as Koreans or other Asians on the west coast... and Bangladeshi's or Indians in other areas. The people who do take over inner city stores however... do tend to be foreign born peoples. And I highly doubt that local born folks would fill in behind.

[marshamusic]

First off, I'm a little surprised @ the title of this thread, and the fact that it's allowed to continue. Maybe it's me, but it sounds just a bit racist. As I've posted before, having been on both sides of the Lexan, it's no picnic. People think you deal all day long with poor but proud folks, and it isn't like that for the most part, though some do "get it" and do act respectably. People walk through the door antagonistic from the get, feel they have a right to either credit, free merchandise, or short-changing you, [["Hey man, I'm $.50 short, let me have a ......."), and it goes on all day long, day in day out. People get attitudes, and tempers run short. You're always keened and honed, and can't let your guard down for a second. To the people that don't have a choice to "go somewhere else", it becomes a game, somewhere to go for a confrontation with "the man". Remembering what it was like when gas station and party stores weren't exclusively run by middle-easterners, you couldn't find operating party-stores or gas stations in Detroit. As the exodus began, no one stepped up to the plate. Middle-easterners WEREN'T given credit by established banks. They had to pool their money together from benefactors from the old country, took out a promissory note, and began buying, opening, and running stores and gas stations. Some even went as far as building new stores and gas stations in the most decrepit neighborhoods. I remember watching the scenario with apprehension. As people left for good they came in to fill the void.

My goodness! ....and you think I can tell a story.....

[canuck]

No, I don't think that anyone really said that. It's just that there's a preponderance of Arab and Chaldeans concentrated in the metro area. In other metro areas there are other nationalities... such as Koreans or other Asians on the west coast... and Bangladeshi's or Indians in other areas. The people who do take over inner city stores however... do tend to be foreign born peoples. And I highly doubt that local born folks would fill in behind.

A day without an arab is like paradise without a cherub... or some such thing.


About forty years ago, french and italian canadians for the most part were convenience store owners and then lebanese and chinese, vietnamese, indian, pakistani bought from them. Koreans owned a lot of stores but didnt stick it out that long, the chinese are now a majority even in small towns in the country around Montreal. There are cycles and like some posters wrote, the financial help will often come from community lending practices. The chinese have this practice down to a fine art.

[iheartthed]

No, I don't think that anyone really said that. It's just that there's a preponderance of Arab and Chaldeans concentrated in the metro area. In other metro areas there are other nationalities... such as Koreans or other Asians on the west coast... and Bangladeshi's or Indians in other areas. The people who do take over inner city stores however... do tend to be foreign born peoples. And I highly doubt that local born folks would fill in behind.

I highly doubt it either. If a single Chaldean had never come to Detroit we'd still be having this same conversation but about whatever other ethnic group of immigrants came in their stead. [[This was also part of the underlying point of Darrell Dawsey's opinion piece, btw.)

[canuck]

No, I don't think that anyone really said that. It's just that there's a preponderance of Arab and Chaldeans concentrated in the metro area. In other metro areas there are other nationalities... such as Koreans or other Asians on the west coast... and Bangladeshi's or Indians in other areas. The people who do take over inner city stores however... do tend to be foreign born peoples. And I highly doubt that local born folks would fill in behind.

A day without an arab is like paradise without a cherub... or some such thing.


About forty years ago, french and italian canadians for the most part were convenience store owners and then lebanese and chinese, vietnamese, indian, pakistani Iranian bought from them. Koreans owned a lot of stores but didnt stick it out that long, the chinese are now a majority even in small towns in the country around Montreal. There are cycles and like some posters wrote, the financial help will often come from community lending practices. The chinese have this practice down to a fine art.



I can also make a point about how perceptions of injustice are felt in our respective cities; In certain cases, my neighborhood for example, a lot of chinese store owners wouldnt greet or speak french to me so I quit going there. They chose to come to a majority french province, were accepted as immigrants in a comfortable place and yet they cant give change and speak french. That is the reason the language laws were passed in Quebec; so that people would be served in the language of the majority. It's not about french people not being able to speak english, it is about being served in their language. This is just to illustrate how some perceived injustices are not that off the mark in Detroit, they just are of another hue.

[Honky Tonk]

A day without an arab is like paradise without a cherub... or some such thing.


About forty years ago, french and italian canadians for the most part were convenience store owners and then lebanese and chinese, vietnamese, indian, pakistani Iranian bought from them. Koreans owned a lot of stores but didnt stick it out that long, the chinese are now a majority even in small towns in the country around Montreal. There are cycles and like some posters wrote, the financial help will often come from community lending practices. The chinese have this practice down to a fine art.



I can also make a point about how perceptions of injustice are felt in our respective cities; In certain cases, my neighborhood for example, a lot of chinese store owners wouldnt greet or speak french to me so I quit going there. They chose to come to a majority french province, were accepted as immigrants in a comfortable place and yet they cant give change and speak french. That is the reason the language laws were passed in Quebec; so that people would be served in the language of the majority. It's not about french people not being able to speak english, it is about being served in their language. This is just to illustrate how some perceived injustices are not that off the mark in Detroit, they just are of another hue.

Did the Chinese put your purchases in a bag, or did the French-Canadians have to do their own bagging?

[canuck]

In convenience stores they ask if you want a bag or usually bag it. In supermarkets most chains charge a nickel per bag nowadays. No problem as far as bags are concerned, the attitude is another thing though.

[Honky Tonk]

In convenience stores they ask if you want a bag or usually bag it. In supermarkets most chains charge a nickel per bag nowadays. No problem as far as bags are concerned, the attitude is another thing though.

On both sides of the counter, [[or Lexan), or just on the cashier side? I mean, is there a resentment by the French-Canadians as to the Chinese running the convenience stores and submarkets? Your post sounds like the French-Canadians resent the Chinese not speaking French, and in turn, this is giving the Chinese storekeepers an attitude. Or vice-versa. Either way, tension and disrespect builds on both sides.

[ypsifly]

I would guess, if the hypothetical situation of Middle Eastern store owners bailing out overnight....the Albanians would jump in and have the stores up an running in a few days. The same families that are running successful coney islands and the like would already have the leverage and related skills set.

[canuck]

On both sides of the counter, [[or Lexan), or just on the cashier side? I mean, is there a resentment by the French-Canadians as to the Chinese running the convenience stores and submarkets? Your post sounds like the French-Canadians resent the Chinese not speaking French, and in turn, this is giving the Chinese storekeepers an attitude. Or vice-versa. Either way, tension and disrespect builds on both sides.

Yes there is tension sometimes about this, it's not universal, some people dont care. Most of the time in the western part of the city, you will be answered in on of three ways; in English and then french, in english only or in french only.
Most people behind the counter will answer you in the language of your choice.
Some guys like a chinese convenience store down the street has been here at least fifteen years and has not managed to learn enough french to tell your change and refuses to utter one word. Like I said, it's not a french diseased attitude, because if you go anywhere in the city, french folks will serve you in any language they speak, but to have an immigrant treat you like you are not worth it is a big no-no here. But thankfully, most shopowners do learn and speak the language, if you are dealing with the public, it only makes sense.

[p69rrh51]

Yes there is tension sometimes about this, it's not universal, some people dont care. Most of the time in the western part of the city, you will be answered in on of three ways; in English and then french, in english only or in french only.
Most people behind the counter will answer you in the language of your choice.
Some guys like a chinese convenience store down the street has been here at least fifteen years and has not managed to learn enough french to tell your change and refuses to utter one word. Like I said, it's not a french diseased attitude, because if you go anywhere in the city, french folks will serve you in any language they speak, but to have an immigrant treat you like you are not worth it is a big no-no here. But thankfully, most shopowners do learn and speak the language, if you are dealing with the public, it only makes sense.

I call foul on this one! My last name is Gravel at one time there were more Gravel's than Smith's in the Montreal Phone book. As a group French-Canadians are some of the most rude, obnoxious people I have met in North America. If you have an English name you get treated like crap all over the province. I really find it annoying that when they see my US Passport or License they go off on this 5 minute plus speech in French. When I can finally stop them and tell them I do not speak French they become very indignant and treat me like someone with an English last name. I for one applaud the Immigrant shop owners! Being of French-Canadian decent I am ashamed at the way those in the French community treat other ethnic groups in Quebec.

[canuck]

I call foul on this one! My last name is Gravel at one time there were more Gravel's than Smith's in the Montreal Phone book. As a group French-Canadians are some of the most rude, obnoxious people I have met in North America. If you have an English name you get treated like crap all over the province. I really find it annoying that when they see my US Passport or License they still go off in this 5 minute plus speech in French. When I can finally stop them and tell them I do not speak French the become very indignant and treat me like someone with an English last name. I for one applaud the Immigrant shop owners! Being of French-Canadian decent I am ashamed at the way those in the French community treat other ethnic groups in Quebec.

Not one of the most rude; The most rude. You are the perfect example of how nasty and bigoted we can be.

[p69rrh51]

Not one of the most rude; The most rude. You are the perfect example of how nasty and bigoted we can be.

Thank you work hard at it!

[canuck]

How does it go? You are a gentleman and a scholar.

As-tu besoin d'un cinq etoiles quand t'en as cinq milliards dans le ciel?

[p69rrh51]

How does it go? You are a gentleman and a scholar.

As-tu besoin d'un cinq etoiles quand t'en as cinq milliards dans le ciel?

Does not make any sense.

[canuck]

Your initial rant didnt make any sense come to think of it. Totally unbelievable.