Kwame doesn't reflect on me as a Detroiter

**Strong** · April-13-13, 09:53 AM

Some people look at Kwame's story as a reflection on Detroit and Detroiters. I say no that's one man plight and not mine even though I voted for him and know him personally.

**artds** · April-13-13, 10:21 AM

Yeah, well, the people of Detroit decided to re-elect him in 2005 even amidst a multitude of scandals, so he reflects on somebody. You might be able to disown him personally, but the majority of your neighbors cannot. He wouldn't have stood a chance of re-election in most communities in southeast Michigan or elsewhere, and the rest of us watched in amazement as Detroit deliberately sent a known sleaze who was caught stealing from them back to the City's highest office. Once you buy something, you own it.

**313WX** · April-13-13, 10:24 AM

Get over it artds. He won by a razor-thin margin [[51% to 49%, something like that). FAct of the matter is he did not represent ALL Detroiters and he most certainly didn't represent me [[only in title).

The guy's in jail for a long time now. Time to move on.

Besides, Kwame not being reelected may have over delayed Detroit's inevitable insolvency for another year or two.

**401don** · April-13-13, 10:31 AM

All leaders reflect on their countries. You take the good with the bad. You don't think Hitler reflected on Germany just a little?

**mwilbert** · April-13-13, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by Strong

Some people look at Kwame's story as a reflection on Detroit and Detroiters. I say no that's one man plight and not mine even though I voted for him and know him personally.

If you voted for him, especially the second time, I would say it reflects on your judgement, and even if you didn't, I think it reflects on you as a Detroiter. I think the fact the George W. Bush was elected in 2004 reflects badly on me as an American, and I didn't vote for him.

It may not be logical, but people can get credit or blame for the actions of other people in groups that they are associated with. It is just the way the human mind works.

**313WX** · April-13-13, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by mwilbert

If you voted for him, especially the second time, I would say it reflects on your judgement, and even if you didn't, I think it reflects on you as a Detroiter. I think the fact the George W. Bush was elected in 2004 reflects badly on me as an American, and I didn't vote for him.

It may not be logical, but people can get credit or blame for the actions of other people in groups that they are associated with. It is just the way the human mind works.

I shouldn't have to take the responsibility for decisions others make if I can't control them.

**mwilbert** · April-13-13, 10:37 AM

I don't think the claim is that you are responsible. The claim is that perceptions about you are likely to be affected by it. It makes Detroiters as a group look worse [[as it should) and you are presumptively associated with that group. But obviously assigning individual responsibility to group actions requires more than that.

**artds** · April-13-13, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by 313WX

Get over it artds. He won by a razor-thin margin [[51% to 49%, something like that). FAct of the matter is he did not represent ALL Detroiters and he most certainly didn't represent me [[only in title).

The guy's in jail for a long time now. Time to move on.

Besides, Kwame not being reelected may have over delayed Detroit's inevitable insolvency for another year or two.

I never said he represented ALL Detroiters. I said he represented a MAJORITY of Detroiters. Last time I checked, 51% constituted a majority, so I'm on pretty solid ground here. And btw, he won by a margin of 53-47%, not 51-49%.

**RickBeall** · April-13-13, 12:13 PM

Detroit = Kwame

Kwame = Detroit

Ha ha, he won.

It's in the history books.

Therefore when you think of Detroit you think of cars and Kwame. Get over it. He is part of your identity, he reflects on you whether you like it or not.

It's a shame, but except for Dennis Archer, Detroit has been run like a corrupt 3rd world country like Haiti since the late 1960's.

**RickBeall** · April-13-13, 12:20 PM

Kwame probably would have beat all his convictions and would be mayor again, if it were not for the newly instituted parading and banning of the Nain Rouge in 2010.

The Nain Rouge was seen as recently as 1996 in Detroit. My reference is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nain_Rouge .It's on the internet so its true.

**canuck** · April-13-13, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by 401don

All leaders reflect on their countries. You take the good with the bad. You don't think Hitler reflected on Germany just a little?

I totally agree with you there. Detroit is not alone in this, and yet, it does reflect poorly on our judgement when we cant read the signals, ignore them, put our trust in leaders blindly because we may want to avoid the discomfort of another kind of leadership...

The ethnic or racial divisiveness in the region brought on a self-flagellating kind of culture on whites and blacks alike. The negativity is due to a lack of cohesiveness, a lack of positive friction or contact between communities if you will.

Either way, a lot of poor choices have been made in the past, it is time for the EFM to do his job correctly, and maybe the city can get back to business with fewer dodgey items on its books, and a cleaner slate on which to write history.

I also feel strongly about the come back of downtown in the overall chance of a healthy future for South East Michigan; the polite way of saying Metro Detroit.
If business and political leaders recognize the business district as its heart, and do what needs to be done to further its success, then the city will rebound because its heart will beat again. If retail, residences and offices are on the upside, then we can pretty much envisage a reconstruction of the central districts from the core. Think of Dresden; it got over Hitler.

**RickBeall** · April-13-13, 01:39 PM

Canuck, you are much too reasonable. I much prefer self-flagellation and denial.

**iheartthed** · April-13-13, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by mwilbert

If you voted for him, especially the second time, I would say it reflects on your judgement, and even if you didn't, I think it reflects on you as a Detroiter. I think the fact the George W. Bush was elected in 2004 reflects badly on me as an American, and I didn't vote for him.

It may not be logical, but people can get credit or blame for the actions of other people in groups that they are associated with. It is just the way the human mind works.

I don't think that people hold GWB against Americans in the same way as Kwame is held against Detroiters. There quite obviously is a racial element to it. For instance, white Americans voted for George Bush and black Americans voted against Bush. Detroiters voted against Bush. Whose policies were more destructive? Bush or Kilpatrick?

**mwilbert** · April-13-13, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I don't think that people hold GWB against Americans in the same way as Kwame is held against Detroiters.

Well, if the people you are talking about are Americans, I think you are right, but I believe that is because they are in the group [[Americans), and people inside a group make more distinctions amongst its members than people outside it looking in. I think if you talked to people in other countries you might get a different response.

**RickBeall** · April-13-13, 03:41 PM

Insightful response mwilbert.

**antongast** · April-13-13, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I don't think that people hold GWB against Americans in the same way as Kwame is held against Detroiters. There quite obviously is a racial element to it. For instance, white Americans voted for George Bush and black Americans voted against Bush. Detroiters voted against Bush. Whose policies were more destructive? Bush or Kilpatrick?

Similarly, I think white suburbanites tend to give themselves too much credit for "seeing through" Kilpatrick from the beginning. There are a lot of people in this region who spent his first term mocking his name and his fashion sense who were unsurprised when his behavior played right into their prejudices, and who think that makes them exceptionally astute political observers and judges of character.

**Wesley Mouch** · April-13-13, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I don't think that people hold GWB against Americans in the same way as Kwame is held against Detroiters. There quite obviously is a racial element to it. For instance, white Americans voted for George Bush and black Americans voted against Bush. Detroiters voted against Bush. Whose policies were more destructive? Bush or Kilpatrick?

I don't see that Bush's policies were destructive, but for this post, let's accept it as fact.

For the nation, Bush. For Detroit, Kilpatrick.

Detroit's slide would have been nearly the same with Gore or Kerry at the national helm.

But switch old Kwame for Hendrick, Hill or most anyone, and things would likely have been better. The only question is how much better. Enough? Probably not. Better? Sure.

**Downriviera** · April-13-13, 04:45 PM

Some people look at the Detroit Lions story as a reflection on Detroit and Detroiters. I say no thats one teams plight and not mine even though I watch them and know one of them personally.

**Ray1936** · April-13-13, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by Downriviera

Some people look at the Detroit Lions story as a reflection on Detroit and Detroiters. I say no thats one teams plight and not mine even though I watch them and know one of them personally.

I wish DetroitYes had a "like" button as in Facebook.

**RickBeall** · April-13-13, 05:07 PM

Puddles don't reflect on me personally.

**MidTownMs** · April-13-13, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by antongast

Similarly, I think white suburbanites tend to give themselves too much credit for "seeing through" Kilpatrick from the beginning. There are a lot of people in this region who spent his first term mocking his name and his fashion sense who were unsurprised when his behavior played right into their prejudices, and who think that makes them exceptionally astute political observers and judges of character.

I am not white or a suburbanite. Both times when KK ran for mayor I did not vote for him. I met him at a party at his mother's headquarters downtown. He had just announced he was going to be the next mayor of Detroit. I told my mother, who was also there, he looked "shady" and I would not vote for him.

**coracle** · April-13-13, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by antongast

Similarly, I think white suburbanites tend to give themselves too much credit for "seeing through" Kilpatrick from the beginning. There are a lot of people in this region who spent his first term mocking his name and his fashion sense who were unsurprised when his behavior played right into their prejudices, and who think that makes them exceptionally astute political observers and judges of character.

No matter what color they are, or where they live, or what prejudices they have, or how good they can judge character, or what lousy fashion sense they have, anybody with a brain larger than a pea could have predicted a bad outcome the second time around. Having said that I think in true American fashion the poor guy will be crucified in the end far beyond what he deserves. The people that voted for him the second time enabled him and share the responsibility. [[but I think he reflects directly on Strong)

**Gistok** · April-13-13, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

I don't see that Bush's policies were destructive, but for this post, let's accept it as fact.

Wait.... so you think that 1 trillion dollars spent on Iraq, 4,409 US lives and 32,000 injured was not destructive??

A trillion is a thousand billions... just think of what a fraction of that could do right now in fixing the infrastructure of this country....

**canuck** · April-13-13, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by RickBeall

Canuck, you are much too reasonable. I much prefer self-flagellation and denial.

lol. I do too, in reasonable doses, whatever that may be. But dont look up Aubrey Beardsley prints, I am not of the kind. lol.

**mwilbert** · April-13-13, 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

I don't see that Bush's policies were destructive, but for this post, let's accept it as fact.

Personally I don't really think there is much doubt that Bush's policies were destructive--there is a reason he is a non-person even in GOP circles. However, my point was more that by the time he was re-elected it was clear that his administration had deceived the country into a war, in the same way that it was pretty clear that KK wasn't exactly honest when he was re-elected. I'm actually not sure it was so clear that KK was a destructive force by then; my memory is that became a lot clearer later on.