Nike/Niketown Detroit

Shollin · April-10-13, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by TexasT

The cities bordering Detroit are stable no, and easily accessible to downtown? I think the point is to either give a place for the 10M visitors already coming here to spend their money, or attract even more visitors from outside of Detroit.

And I'm not sure who was talking about upscale retail here. We're not talking BCBG or Saks at this point.

Retailers don't build in cities with less than ideal demographics in hopes that people will commute from miles away to shop there.

**TexasT** · April-10-13, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

Retailers don't build in cities with less than ideal demographics in hopes that people will commute from miles away to shop there.

So they built Somerset thinking that the community of Troy would support it? That doesn't make sense. Of course they expect people to commute there. The fact that downtown pulls in 10M visitors a year shows that people are willing to commute there for entertainment purposes. This isn't downtown Gary, IN we're talking talking about. Come on now.

And the retailers aren't building - Gilbert seems willing to do that. So we are mixing up terms here.

Shollin · April-10-13, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by TexasT

So they built Somerset thinking that the community of Troy would support it? That doesn't make sense. Of course they expect people to commute there. The fact that downtown pulls in 10M visitors a year shows that people are willing to commute there for entertainment purposes. This isn't downtown Gary, IN we're talking talking about. Come on now.

Troy had a lot more jobs and a lot more wealth within a short radius of Somerset. You don't just drop Somerset in the poorest area in the state.

**iheartthed** · April-10-13, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

They already have everything in Troy that Detroit wants. I'm not sure what your point is.

They don't have a Niketown in Troy.

**dtowncitylover** · April-10-13, 02:06 PM

Why was Saks, the original part of Somerset, built where it was? It wasn't near anything [[or anyone). Big Beaver and Coolidge weren't the business rows that they are today. Was it Saks' intent that a mall would be built around it? Why didn't they build somewhere in or closer to downtown Birmingham, the home of Oakland County's monied stores and businesses.

**iheartthed** · April-10-13, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

Troy had a lot more jobs and a lot more wealth within a short radius of Somerset. You don't just drop Somerset in the poorest area in the state.

Somerset was built in the 1960s when very few jobs were in Troy. As always, you don't know what you're talking about.

**TexasT** · April-10-13, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

Troy had a lot more jobs and a lot more wealth within a short radius of Somerset. You don't just drop Somerset in the poorest area in the state.

Detroit has its issues but its sheer numbers still pack a punch as it has 10x the number of people as Troy. Per the last census, Troy has 21K households making above the American average income; Detroit has 70K. Detroit has almost twice as many households making $100K+ as Troy.

Detroit is poorer in a relative sense, but in absolute numbers, it has more affluent buyers to support retail. Obviously you need more than just people willing to buy, but the problem is not the lack of customers here, based on both Detroit's own population and the large number of visitors to the area.

Shollin · April-10-13, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Somerset was built in the 1960s when very few jobs were in Troy. As always, you don't know what you're talking about.

Only part was built in the 60's. In the 90's north was built that included Tiffany's, Nordstroms, and Nieman Marcus.

Shollin · April-10-13, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by TexasT

Detroit has its issues but its sheer numbers still pack a punch as it has 10x the number of people as Troy. Per the last census, Troy has 21K households making above the American average income; Detroit has 70K. Detroit has almost twice as many households making $100K+ as Troy.

Detroit is poorer in a relative sense, but in absolute numbers, it has more affluent buyers to support retail. Obviously you need more than just people willing to buy, but the problem is not the lack of customers here, based on both Detroit's own population and the large number of visitors to the area.

Despite having 10 times the population, Detroit doesn't even have 3 times the number of jobs Troy does. I don't know why it needs to be said the mid and upscale retailers don't open in poverty ridden cities that can't support a discount retailer, but i've continued to be less amazed at things I read here.

**TexasT** · April-10-13, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

Despite having 10 times the population, Detroit doesn't even have 3 times the number of jobs Troy does.

But it does have more, which is my point. Absolute vs. relative.

And I'd disagree that Detroit can't support a discount retailer.

Shollin · April-10-13, 02:33 PM

Name me one city that has as much poverty as Detroit and has upscale shopping. When the city had more people, lower unemployment and more wealth, it still couldn't support a Hudson's and the suburbs surrounding Detroit were in better shape.

**TexasT** · April-10-13, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

Name me one city that has as much poverty as Detroit and has upscale shopping. When the city had more people, lower unemployment and more wealth, it still couldn't support a Hudson's and the suburbs surrounding Detroit were in better shape.

Chicago has more poor people than Detroit. The question isn't necessarily how much poverty a place has; it's how much affluence. Of course, as I mentioned, there are other issues but lack of a buying population is not one of them.

From what I understand, people quit coming downtown and spending time here; I'm not old so I don't have the personal history there, but that's what I've been told. As I've mentioned, downtown Detroit gets plenty of visitors these days. 10M is more than enough to support some level of retail.

And once again, nobody but you has mentioned upscale shopping. If it makes you happy, I will agree with you that downtown Detroit cannot support a Saks right now.

Shollin · April-10-13, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by TexasT

Chicago has more poor people than Detroit. The question isn't necessarily how much poverty a place has; it's how much affluence. Of course, as I mentioned, there are other issues but lack of a buying population is not one of them.

From what I understand, people quit coming downtown; I'm not old so I don't have the personal history there, but that's what I've been told. As I've mentioned, downtown Detroit gets plenty of visitors these days. 10M is more than enough to support some level of retail.

And once again, nobody but you has mentioned upscale shopping. If it makes you happy, I will agree with you that downtown Detroit cannot support a Saks right now.

It was mentioned in this thread that Woodward could be Michigan Ave. The market conditions in Detroit simply don't support these types of retailers or else they would be here. You keep going on this 10 million, but how many Tigers fans [[who apparently did nothing but piss and throw garbage in Detroit) are going to shop at these stores?

**pkbroch** · April-10-13, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

Only part was built in the 60's. In the 90's north was built that included Tiffany's, Nordstroms, and Nieman Marcus.

Saks was built as a stand alone with a lot of land to the west. The mall area was built in between Saks and the to be built Bonwit Teller store. The stores in between the two were high end like Claire Peron and Walton Pierce, if my memory is right. Bonwit Teller, a flageship New York Store closed nationally and Neimen Marcus took it's place.

**pkbroch** · April-10-13, 02:48 PM

The anchor stores at Somerset north are Macy's and Nordstroms.

**TexasT** · April-10-13, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

It was mentioned in this thread that Woodward could be Michigan Ave. The market conditions in Detroit simply don't support these types of retailers or else they would be here. You keep going on this 10 million, but how many Tigers fans [[who apparently did nothing but piss and throw garbage in Detroit) are going to shop at these stores?

The comparison to Mich Ave was in the context of bland generic chains, not Woodwards current ability to support upscale shopping. And the Mag Mile has plenty of standard mall-level retail, FYI.

The 10M is not even half sports fans but my larger point is that downtown attracts a lot of outside visitors for lots of non-work-related purposes. It's sort of naive to think the same wouldn't be true for shopping if it were available.

Originally Posted by Shollin

The market conditions in Detroit simply don't support these types of retailers or else they would be here.

They aren't here because market conditions haven't supported them in the past, yes. We aren't talking about the past. We're talking about what's in store for the future. For example, the market in the past couldn't support three upscale grocers in YOBS, Whole Foods, and Papa Joes, but things change. I and others believe they've changed to a degree enough to support SOME level of retail as well.

**iheartthed** · April-10-13, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

Name me one city that has as much poverty as Detroit and has upscale shopping. When the city had more people, lower unemployment and more wealth, it still couldn't support a Hudson's and the suburbs surrounding Detroit were in better shape.

Plenty of cities with lots of poor people have shopping in the city: Baltimore, Philadelphia, New Orleans, St. Louis, Cleveland.

And it's not true that Detroit could not support a Hudsons. Hudsons changed their business model to cater to suburban shopping malls instead of a large urban department store.

Shollin · April-10-13, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Plenty of cities with lots of poor people have shopping in the city: Baltimore, Philadelphia, New Orleans, St. Louis, Cleveland.

And it's not true that Detroit could not support a Hudsons. Hudsons changed their business model to cater to suburban shopping malls instead of a large urban department store.

Do you realize how far away from downtown Cleveland their Target is? You might as well call Eastland Detroit. The Target in Eastland is closer to downtown Detroit than Target is to downtown Cleveland. St louis does not have a Target. New Orleans does not have a Target. Baltimore has 1 Target and Philadelphia isn't in the same class as Detroit. When Hudson's closed, why didn't anyone move into the building? Why didn't Macy's move downtown? You would think if Hudson's leaving wasn't due to demand, there would be a huge hole in Detroit retail.

**TexasT** · April-10-13, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

Do you realize how far away from downtown Cleveland their Target is? You might as well call Eastland Detroit. The Target in Eastland is closer to downtown Detroit than Target is to downtown Cleveland. St louis does not have a Target. New Orleans does not have a Target. Baltimore has 1 Target and Philadelphia isn't in the same class as Detroit.

Wow, we went from upscale retail to Target being the standard. Of those places, being from the south, NOLA is the only one I'm familiar with. No they don't have a Target but they do have a Saks, BCBG, J. Crew, Michael Kors, etc in their shopping center downtown, not to mention tons of small boutiques within the Quarter.

Shollin · April-10-13, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by TexasT

Wow, we went from upscale retail to Target being the standard. Of those places, being from the south, NOLA is the only one I'm familiar with. No they don't have a Target but they do have a Saks, BCBG, J. Crew, Michael Kors, etc in their shopping center downtown, not to mention tons of small boutiques within the Quarter.

I figured if they didn't have a Target there was no point going up the chain but Detroit doesn't even have a Target. It doesn't even have a Kmart [[which began in Detroit) not even a Big Lots. If there was money to be made in Detroit, they would be there.

**TexasT** · April-10-13, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

I figured if they didn't have a Target there was no point going up the chain

Glad you admitted to just shooting off the hip without really knowing. Anyways, there's your example of a poor city with lots of retail.

but Detroit doesn't even have a Target. It doesn't even have a Kmart [[which began in Detroit) not even a Big Lots. If there was money to be made in Detroit, they would be there.

A Meijer is being built as we speak. So I guess there's money to be made here.

**iheartthed** · April-10-13, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

Do you realize how far away from downtown Cleveland their Target is? You might as well call Eastland Detroit. The Target in Eastland is closer to downtown Detroit than Target is to downtown Cleveland. St louis does not have a Target. New Orleans does not have a Target. Baltimore has 1 Target and Philadelphia isn't in the same class as Detroit. When Hudson's closed, why didn't anyone move into the building? Why didn't Macy's move downtown? You would think if Hudson's leaving wasn't due to demand, there would be a huge hole in Detroit retail.

Oh okay, so you have no real rebuttal? That's what I thought.

Shollin · April-10-13, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by TexasT

Glad you admitted to just shooting off the hip without really knowing.

A Meijer is being built as we speak. So I guess there's money to be made there.

Lets see how long it lasts. Target was in Detroit and it didn't last long. Eastland and Northland are dying.

Shollin · April-10-13, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Oh okay, so you have no real rebuttal? That's what I thought.

I figured a rebuttal that the cities you mentioned don't have extensive retail would be sufficient. How about none of the cities you mentioned have as high poverty and unemployment as Detroit?

**TexasT** · April-10-13, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

I figured a rebuttal that the cities you mentioned don't have extensive retail would be sufficient. How about none of the cities you mentioned have as high poverty and unemployment as Detroit?

NOLA doesn't have extensive retail?

A third of NOLA lives below poverty. Yet they have retail. Because again, it's not only about who lives there, it's about who would visit and shop there.