IS the current "revitalization" of Greater Downtown real?

[jaytheory]

There have been many big projects over the years to revitalize downtown and the city. Is anything different happening this time? RenCen, stadiums, DPM? Will the currentl flurry of Apts and offices actually do it?

Does this time "feel" real?

[Bucket]

Went downtown for services on Good Friday and then drove to midtown for lunch afterward. There were a ton of people out and about downtown and in midtown. Lots of pedestrian and car traffic. People jogging. Out walking around. Downtown felt like a bustling city, with Campus Martius as the focal point.

Feels pretty real to me.

[rutlev]

It's more real than anything that was proposed in the past. I believe.

[Zug]

It feels a little more real to me...though I want to see continued progress before I say "we're on our way."

I think the difference is this...past attempts at revitalizing were based on ideas that ultimately failed across the country. However, since the 90's other cities have implemented ideas that worked...and now we are taking what worked and trying to do it here. That makes me a little more optimistic...but I want to see more before I say everything is going to go uphill.

[southen]

to me one of the biggest differences is that this isn't sports stadiums or casinos, it's about bringing in more workers and residents. that is real change that will have a greater affect than anything else that has happened over the years.

[DetroitPlanner]

southen, The workers are here. There are more people working downtown now than in the last 30 years I've been working down here.

The residential issue however is much more gloomy. 30 years ago the City had about 1.1-1.3 million people. Now not so much. Granted, there are more people living near the CBD, but that only means that many of the once stable neighborhoods are no longer stable. Most of the new people in the area around the CBD are only there because of tax incentives, meaning once those dry up, who knows what is going to happen once they have to pay a higher premium to live or own there.

[corktownyuppie]

Most of the new people in the area around the CBD are only there because of tax incentives, meaning once those dry up, who knows what is going to happen once they have to pay a higher premium to live or own there.

Most of the new people in the area around the CBD are there because they WANT to be there. It's the tax incentives which make it possible. Not the other way around, IMHO.

The revitalization of Greater Downtown is real. We have not hit a critical sustainable mass, but it is in our sights and we are making steady and undeniable progress to get there.

But to DetroitPlanner's point, he is correct. The neighborhoods are really suffering. The Detroit Future City framework really addresses what will be necessary to stabilize the neighborhoods and we still have much, much work to do.

[Honky Tonk]

Most of the new people in the area around the CBD are there because they WANT to be there. It's the tax incentives which make it possible. Not the other way around, IMHO.

The revitalization of Greater Downtown is real. We have not hit a critical sustainable mass, but it is in our sights and we are making steady and undeniable progress to get there.

But to DetroitPlanner's point, he is correct. The neighborhoods are really suffering. The Detroit Future City framework really addresses what will be necessary to stabilize the neighborhoods and we still have much, much work to do.

The increase in tax-incentive residents downtown will be offset by the exodus from surrounding neighborhoods due to taxation with no or lame City Services. My guess it'll be a wash. Sustainable growth also have a lot to do with how the EFM/bankruptcy, and City government shapes up and shakes out after the election.

[Gannon]

Core assumption of the poster's hypothesis is that past efforts were not real. That is incorrect. EVERY attempt at urban revitalization in this city has been real, but limited due to factors beyond the planner's purview and control. Time will only tell how this one falls short, if it will.

It is tough to impossible to consider any dynamic system, take a static snapshot then from that 'instant' make a plan and implement it back INTO the dynamic system...which surely did not pause or stop while the analysis was being done, nor when the correction or reinvention is being put into place.

It is the traditional problem with any feedback loop. The corrections almost always arrive too late to be of any true worth...and often, if not always, make over-corrections which can introduce problems even in excess of what they were designed to correct.

[Bham1982]

It's tough to know whether it's "real" as it's happening.

My sense is no, and I know I'm in the minority here.

Nothing happens downtown/midtown absent generous subsidies or some actors with non-market motivations [[say Gilbert). There isn't yet any evidence of "normal", non-subsidized, non-"knight on shining white horse" viability.

[TexasT]

My father-in-law is one of those suburbanites who hates the city...and even he has become optimistic [[cool story bro). Even in Chicago, we still had our major projects subsidized quite a bit [[recent examples here, here, here etc). Those will likely be around for quite a while.

The neighborhoods are really suffering. The Detroit Future City framework really addresses what will be necessary to stabilize the neighborhoods and we still have much, much work to do.

Good point for all the people bitching that the "Gilbert plan" doesn't address the neighborhoods...

[401don]

It will be real when a decent number of retail stores remain 24 months after opening.

[Eber Brock Ward]

It's tough to know whether it's "real" as it's happening.

My sense is no, and I know I'm in the minority here.

Nothing happens downtown/midtown absent generous subsidies or some actors with non-market motivations [[say Gilbert). There isn't yet any evidence of "normal", non-subsidized, non-"knight on shining white horse" viability.

Yeah, you've beaten this drum and I've posted examples from every major city showing that major projects are subsidized EVERYWHERE.

At this point, having done a number of these deals in Chicago, it's not a question of whether the deal will be subsidized, but how much.

Let's face it, if you're a city and you want growth you have to lift up your skirt and show something. "Subsidization" is a red herring, unless you are prepared to argue that growth in all major cities isn't "real", which argument I think has some merit.

[Honky Tonk]

My father-in-law is one of those suburbanites who hates the city...and even he has become optimistic [[cool story bro). Even in Chicago, we still had our major projects subsidized quite a bit [[recent examples here, here, here etc). Those will likely be around for quite a while.



Good point for all the people bitching that the "Gilbert plan" doesn't address the neighborhoods...

The "Detroit Jerks Project" is nothing but a bunch of "feel good" writing, promising the moon, in hopes you won't leave, and "hang on a bit longer". When they actually get serious and start doing something, then I'll be less sceptical. The City is dead, flat broke, and unsustainable. Just how do they plan on implementing these projects? Donations, pass the hat? The whole thing sounds like a crap shoot, hinged on the fact that eventually, enough people will occupy Downtown and Mid-town, start paying taxes, generate revenue, and start putting money back into the neighborhoods. If the neighborhoods fall first, how do they plan on subsidizing Downton development? More bond sales?

[Bham1982]

Yeah, you've beaten this drum and I've posted examples from every major city showing that major projects are subsidized EVERYWHERE.

Can you post us these examples? Because I don't know what you're talking about. I can't recall subsidies being used in Ann Arbor, Birmingham, Royal Oak, or other regional cities.

Can you cite a single example of a subsidized restaurant anywhere else in Metro Detroit? How about a subsidized grocery store, or subsidized hotel? Subsidized "luxury lofts"?

At this point, having done a number of these deals in Chicago, it's not a question of whether the deal will be subsidized, but how much.

You're seriously claiming that restaurants opening in downtown Chicago receive subsidies? I find that hard to believe. Same goes for all new apartments, groceries, hotels, etc.?

It may be that certain major projects receive subsidies, because Chicago isn't really a super-profitable market for many uses. Chicago is strong market within the Midwest but is very weak compared to the coastal cities. Chicago has extensive overbuilding in many sectors and generally poor market fundamentals.

Chicago has [[compared to the major U.S. gateway cities) low hotel rates, weak office demand, and high residential vacancies. They also use heavy TIF [[Tax Increment Subsidies) on major redevelopments, which are illegal in most states. Yes, many of their major downtown projects wouldn't happen absent TIF monies.

But there's no way in hell the local Chicago yuppie-zone grocery store receives tax subsidies to open. There's no way a restaurant opens with tax subsidies.

[TexasT]

The "Detroit Jerks Project" is nothing but a bunch of "feel good" writing. When they actually get serious and start doing something, then I'll be less sceptical. The City is dead, flat broke, and unsustainable. Just how do they plan on implementing these projects? Donations, pass the hat?

One of the biggest questions dogging the new Detroit Future City report -- how to pay for its hundreds of recommendations -- got a resounding answer Wednesday when the Kresge Foundation pledged $150 million over five years in continued and additional grants to dramatically remake Detroit's landscape.

Detroit Future City might be the only plan of its kind in modern American times to have such massive, targeted financial support from the start.

Link.

[Hermod]

What per cent of Metro Detroit workers work downtown? What per cent of Metro Detroit workers worked downtown during the heyday of Detroit?

The extra large capacity streetcars to carry commuters back when there were streetcars went to the Ford Rouge Plant and not downtown.

[TexasT]

But there's no way in hell the local Chicago yuppie-zone grocery store receives tax subsidies to open.

Chicago approves $7 million subsidy for Mariano's

A new grocery store that’s planned for the West Loop got a $7 million subsidy approved by a key city commission Tuesday, giving the developer a chunk of cash to get the project started.

Link.

[Eber Brock Ward]

Can you post us these examples? Because I don't know what you're talking about. I can't recall subsidies being used in Ann Arbor, Birmingham, Royal Oak, or other regional cities.

Can you cite a single example of a subsidized restaurant anywhere else in Metro Detroit? How about a subsidized grocery store, or subsidized hotel? Subsidized "luxury lofts"?


You're seriously claiming that restaurants opening in downtown Chicago receive subsidies? I find that hard to believe. Same goes for all new apartments, groceries, hotels, etc.?

It may be that certain major projects receive subsidies, because Chicago isn't really a super-profitable market for many uses. Chicago is strong market within the Midwest but is very weak compared to the coastal cities. Chicago has extensive overbuilding in many sectors and generally poor market fundamentals.

Chicago has [[compared to the major U.S. gateway cities) low hotel rates, weak office demand, and high residential vacancies. They also use heavy TIF [[Tax Increment Subsidies) on major redevelopments, which are illegal in most states. Yes, many of their major downtown projects wouldn't happen absent TIF monies.

But there's no way in hell the local Chicago yuppie-zone grocery store receives tax subsidies to open. There's no way a restaurant opens with tax subsidies.

I responded to this from your previous post:

Nothing happens downtown/midtown absent generous subsidies

Now you're moving the goalposts. I don't even know why I bother to respond to you anymore. Like someone said the other day, you must be trolling.

[coracle]

The downtown growth is real insomuch that lots of workers and some residents are moving in and there are plans to increase the number of businesses so there's more expected.
The question is will it be a catalyst to grow the neighborhoods or will it turn out to be another Ren Cen/Casino effect but on a grander scale.
This whole revitalization scheme is back to front; first should come the resident's comfort in the neighborhoods then a downtown will grow because everybody will want at the center of it.

[Bham1982]

Chicago approves $7 million subsidy for Mariano's

Yes, and this doesn't happen in the yuppie neighborhoods. This is the West Side of Chicago, which is crap. It doesn't happen in Lincoln Park, Lakeview, Gold Coast, etc.

And, again, Chicago isn't representative of "all cities". It's a very big outlier, with a very pro-development, pro-TIF subsidy culture. This is completely alien to the experiences in most major cities.

In more successful large cities, it's the developer who has to give back to the city. You can't get anything built in cities like NYC, SF, LA, Boston, and DC without promising affordable housing, limits on size and density, transit improvements, and other givebacks.

[TexasT]

Yes, and this doesn't happen in the yuppie neighborhoods. This is the West Side of Chicago, which is crap. It doesn't happen in Lincoln Park, Lakeview, Gold Coast, etc.

And, again, Chicago isn't representative of "all cities". It's a very big outlier, with a very pro-development, pro-TIF subsidy culture. This is completely alien to the experiences in most major cities.

In more successful large cities, it's the developer who has to give back to the city. You can't get anything built in cities like NYC, SF, LA, Boston, and DC without promising affordable housing, limits on size and density, transit improvements, and other givebacks.

Another bham post, another moving the goal posts..[[and West Loop is extremely yuppified, since it sounds like you are unfamiliar with it. One of Chicago's hottest newer restaurants, Girl & The Goat - owned by the Top Chef winner, is there and I really recommend it FYI! Blackbird, continually rated as one of the best restaurants in the country is also in the West Loop on Restaurant Row, fyi.).

You are about 0/4 on your statements like this [[you just got utterly owned on that last one). I'm not even going to try to disprove you anymore...

[Bham1982]

What per cent of Metro Detroit workers work downtown? What per cent of Metro Detroit workers worked downtown during the heyday of Detroit?

According to the Brookings Institute, roughly 5% of Metro Detroit workers are employed within a three mile radius of the city center. 78% of jobs are more than 10 miles from the city center.

So if there's a movement towards "live where you work", I don't think too many people are going to choose to live anywhere near downtown.

http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/res...rjobsprawl.pdf

[Bham1982]

You are about 0/4 on your statements like this [[you just got utterly owned on that last one). I'm not even going to try to disprove you anymore...

The claim was that every city is the same as Detroit [[in other words, all cities have to use subsidies to revitalize their downtowns).

The evidence given was a subsidized grocery store on the West Side of Chicago.

So we don't yet have a downtown example, and we don't have any reason to believe that Chicago is representative of other cities. But I'm supposed to believe that "every city subsidizes development in its downtown" because "one city subsidizes a store in the ghetto".

If you can't understand why the given example was stupid, I can't help you.

[Eber Brock Ward]

The claim was that every city is the same as Detroit [[in other words, all cities have to use subsidies to revitalize their downtowns).

The evidence given was a subsidized grocery store on the West Side of Chicago.

So we don't yet have a downtown example, and we don't have any reason to believe that Chicago is representative of other cities. But I'm supposed to believe that "every city subsidizes development in its downtown" because "one city subsidizes a store in the ghetto".

If you can't understand why the given example was stupid, I can't help you.

Here, you never responded last time: http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...411#post370411

And I think there's a third thread out there where I started rattling off projects in Chicago when you tried to pull that "subsidy" crap again.

Like I wrote earlier, when you bring the deal team together on one of these deals, the subsidy question is not generally one of "will we subsidy?" but, rather, "what type of subsidy package can we put together?"

Just stop. It's the same old canard about subsidies and it's disproven every time. Hone your argument, if you're going with the subsidies line. You either need to drop it or acknowledge that, yes, there are subsidies for many projects in Detroit's downtown, but that's the case with just about any substantial project in other major cities.