DPS has superintendent terminated; faces Federal civil rights investigation.

**brizee** · March-28-13, 08:44 PM

Michigan could have to argue both the recreation of the EM law and it's application in separate cases.

The state could find out it isn't the only higher power that carries a big stick.

Roy Roberts, who has never been an educator, fires the superintendent.

I'm able to separate my feelings on the EM law from the person. I wish Tony Saunders luck. Kevyn Orr hasn't rubbed me the wrong way yet.

Everything I've read about Roy Roberts makes him sound like a caustic, too smart for his own good prick.

**Wesley Mouch** · March-29-13, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by brizee

..snip...Everything I've read about Roy Roberts makes him sound like a caustic, too smart for his own good prick.

And how does that make him unsuitable for public service, or differentiate him from say, Ficano, Kilpatrick, or Bing?

**Hypestyles** · March-29-13, 07:00 PM

with all these disruptions in the macro-administrative leadership, I'm wondering how much genuine [[positive) reform is trickling down to the school levels.. I'm sure some [[more) lawsuits are to follow...

**renf** · March-30-13, 08:51 AM

Is there any factual information or data about the accomplishments thus far of the Educational Achievement Authority run by Mr. Covington and designed by Governor Snyder to operate 5 percent of the state's public schools. They began last fall by administering 15 schools in the city of Detroit. Very little has appeared in the press about this innovative strategy for improving public schools while reducing costs. When recruited for this job, some press reports presented Mr. Covington in a very favorable light.

**65memories** · March-30-13, 09:42 AM

Concerning the EAA, it's interesting that Covington just yesterday let go Mumford's new Principal, Dr. Donnie Davis, after only seven and a half months on the job. Obviously, the new educational model is not working there. Whether Dr. Davis was given a chance is up for debate.

Sidenote: In 2009, Mumford had 2300 students compared to 1100 students today). The community was solidly behind the Principal at the time, Ms. Linda Spight [[a 2008 recipient of the MetLife Ambassador in Education award; Principal of the Year). For whatever reason, Robert Bobb arrived wanting to show his authority. He decided to clean house at Mumford, much to the chagrin of the community. A packed auditorium of parents, students, staff and alumni tried to get him to change his mind, to no avail. Spight retired. Mumford has not recovered from the change. http://detroit.blogs.time.com/2010/0...-wouldnt-quit/

**Wesley Mouch** · March-30-13, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by 65memories

Concerning the EAA, it's interesting that Covington just yesterday let go Mumford's new Principal, Dr. Donnie Davis, after only seven and a half months on the job. Obviously, the new educational model is not working there. Whether Dr. Davis was given a chance is up for debate.

Sidenote: In 2009, Mumford had 2300 students compared to 1100 students today). The community was solidly behind the Principal at the time, Ms. Linda Spight [[a 2008 recipient of the MetLife Ambassador in Education award; Principal of the Year). For whatever reason, Robert Bobb arrived wanting to show his authority. He decided to clean house at Mumford, much to the chagrin of the community. A packed auditorium of parents, students, staff and alumni tried to get him to change his mind, to no avail. Spight retired. Mumford has not recovered from the change. http://detroit.blogs.time.com/2010/0...-wouldnt-quit/

What an interesting story. I had not realize Mumford was such a great success story prior to this change. Is there more to tell about Mumford's decline?

**firstandten** · March-30-13, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

What an interesting story. I had not realize Mumford was such a great success story prior to this change. Is there more to tell about Mumford's decline?

I guess it depends on what you consider a success story. Mr. Bobb fired Ms Spight based on the data he had on the school. Mr. Bobb did the same thing with the Kettering HS principal, going against the communities wishes. However at least in the Mumford case data doesn't tell the whole story. Bobb found that out when he replaced Ms Spight the school went straight to hell, he realized she was holding that school together and if he wasn't happy with the test scores then he should have gotten her some help. Eventually he asked her to come back but by then she was enjoying retirement and she respectfully declined However that shows that Bobb should have stuck to closing schools and aligning expenses with revenues and let someone else remake the school system.

**firstandten** · March-30-13, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by 65memories

Concerning the EAA, it's interesting that Covington just yesterday let go Mumford's new Principal, Dr. Donnie Davis, after only seven and a half months on the job. Obviously, the new educational model is not working there. Whether Dr. Davis was given a chance is up for debate.

Sidenote: In 2009, Mumford had 2300 students compared to 1100 students today). The community was solidly behind the Principal at the time, Ms. Linda Spight [[a 2008 recipient of the MetLife Ambassador in Education award; Principal of the Year). For whatever reason, Robert Bobb arrived wanting to show his authority. He decided to clean house at Mumford, much to the chagrin of the community. A packed auditorium of parents, students, staff and alumni tried to get him to change his mind, to no avail. Spight retired. Mumford has not recovered from the change. http://detroit.blogs.time.com/2010/0...-wouldnt-quit/

I am now starting to wonder what is so great with the EAA. In some respects I think its school model is just re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. The EAA paid big money for Dr. Davis to come from out of state to manage the school and he wasn't up to the task and couldn't last the school year. The process as it pertains to educating inner-city kids is fundamentally flawed and the EAA or DPS or any other low performing school district doesn't have the answer other than throwing money at it and the money is getting tight. In my mind you can have all the teaching strategies you want but unless you change the mindset particularly among the students and their parents you are only going to have limited success at best. Also if you see test scores rise significantly the first thought will be, do we have another Atlanta here ?

**brizee** · March-30-13, 07:17 PM

http://www.eclectablog.com/2013/03/d...s-success.html

It looks like Roy Roberts states blatant Ducktales.

And the mass media refuses to call him out on it.

**firstandten** · March-30-13, 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by brizee

http://www.eclectablog.com/2013/03/d...s-success.html

It looks like Roy Roberts states blatant Ducktales.

And the mass media refuses to call him out on it.

That was a good article. I would only take exception on a couple of points. Mr. Roberts was characterize as a sales and marketing guy therefore the implication was what does he know about managing. In fact he started his career at GM as a assembly plant manager. If you know anything about running a automotive assembly plant you better be brutally efficient or you won't keep your job and he was a good one and he moved up the corporate ladder as a result. The other was the effectiveness of EFM's pertaining to school districts. While there is a lot of evidence to show that EFM's aren't making a difference in our schools there is even more to show that our elected school board isn't making a difference either. The school board doesn't even have the political will to close schools that should have been closed 10 years ago. Where the EFM's go wrong is they have over reached, they feel that they have a mandate to completely remake a school district but the problems and challenges are too complex for even someone with the power that they have to overcome.

**Wesley Mouch** · March-31-13, 12:54 AM

Originally Posted by firstandten

I guess it depends on what you consider a success story. Mr. Bobb fired Ms Spight based on the data he had on the school. Mr. Bobb did the same thing with the Kettering HS principal, going against the communities wishes. However at least in the Mumford case data doesn't tell the whole story. Bobb found that out when he replaced Ms Spight the school went straight to hell, he realized she was holding that school together and if he wasn't happy with the test scores then he should have gotten her some help. Eventually he asked her to come back but by then she was enjoying retirement and she respectfully declined However that shows that Bobb should have stuck to closing schools and aligning expenses with revenues and let someone else remake the school system.

How unfortunate. I suppose it is hard to see a good captain when the fleet is sailing towards death.

Couple thoughts.

Why don't we hear these stories? This is a great story of someone doing good in a really tough situation. It would help humanize this problem for a lot of people.

The ending of this story is sad. But the result was inevitable. Bobb probably misjudged this principal. But the district's problems were larger than Spight and Bobb.

**firstandten** · March-31-13, 02:10 AM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

How unfortunate. I suppose it is hard to see a good captain when the fleet is sailing towards death.

Couple thoughts.

Why don't we hear these stories? This is a great story of someone doing good in a really tough situation. It would help humanize this problem for a lot of people.

The ending of this story is sad. But the result was inevitable. Bobb probably misjudged this principal. But the district's problems were larger than Spight and Bobb.

You know I see it all the time you have a failing school system or a failing city for that matter. All of the managers get lumped in as failures when actually you have some very good managers. The new guy in charge doesn't want to spend the time to determine who should stay or who should go, they just look at the data. People like Bobb has this huge ego and they probably think that this district is a failure so by definition the people managing in the district must be failures as well so I'll bring in my own people and save these folks from themselves. Mr. Orr however doesn't seem to me to be that way.

**Wesley Mouch** · March-31-13, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by firstandten

You know I see it all the time you have a failing school system or a failing city for that matter. All of the managers get lumped in as failures when actually you have some very good managers. The new guy in charge doesn't want to spend the time to determine who should stay or who should go, they just look at the data. People like Bobb has this huge ego and they probably think that this district is a failure so by definition the people managing in the district must be failures as well so I'll bring in my own people and save these folks from themselves. Mr. Orr however doesn't seem to me to be that way.

I think this is true. The new guy is given a massive task. A mess to clean up that took dozens of people years and years to create. A mess that has 100 excuses for everything. A mess that has 100 cheerleaders for every failure.

I do hope Mr. Orr is better than average. Detroit needs better than average.

But do expect Mr. Orr to be human. He's not Superman. He'll make mistakes. Maybe even a few really big mistakes.

And that's OK. It the big picture that matters.

**firstandten** · April-03-13, 11:51 AM

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...OLS/304030358/ The data is now starting to come out on the behavior issues in the EAA schools. The one thing they did not do was compare the incidents this year to the incidents last years when they were DPS schools. I'm willing to bet that there were not much of a difference. Covington and Roberts can spin this how they want but I'm not buying increased test scores when the behavior problems are still out of control.

**Honky Tonk** · April-03-13, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by firstandten

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...OLS/304030358/ The data is now starting to come out on the behavior issues in the EAA schools. The one thing they did not do was compare the incidents this year to the incidents last years when they were DPS schools. I'm willing to bet that there were not much of a difference. Covington and Roberts can spin this how they want but I'm not buying increased test scores when the behavior problems are still out of control.

Can I just ask where the hell the parents are?

**313WX** · April-03-13, 12:42 PM

The EAA is the exact reason why doing something new just for the sake of doing something new isn't always a good idea [[something Snyder has yet to grasp).

**Wesley Mouch** · April-03-13, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by firstandten

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...OLS/304030358/ The data is now starting to come out on the behavior issues in the EAA schools. The one thing they did not do was compare the incidents this year to the incidents last years when they were DPS schools. I'm willing to bet that there were not much of a difference. Covington and Roberts can spin this how they want but I'm not buying increased test scores when the behavior problems are still out of control.

Congratulations on finding a fact that supports your prejudice against new ideas.

Do you expect them to excel in everything immediately? Unrealistic.

And even if this is an abject failure -- that doesn't mean experimentation and new approaches is bad.

I support publicly funded public schools. And I suppose alternatives that help keep public schools on their toes. And those public schools do know that the alternatives exist. And it makes them better. That's what we want, isn't it?

**firstandten** · April-03-13, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Congratulations on finding a fact that supports your prejudice against new ideas.

Do you expect them to excel in everything immediately? Unrealistic.

And even if this is an abject failure -- that doesn't mean experimentation and new approaches is bad.

I support publicly funded public schools. And I suppose alternatives that help keep public schools on their toes. And those public schools do know that the alternatives exist. And it makes them better. That's what we want, isn't it?

New approaches are good, never in my many posts have I ever been against new ideas. What I am against is re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic and calling it progress, what I am against is doing incremental tweaks and calling it a revolutionary new process. Its reminds me too much of doing the same damn things and hoping for a different result. What I consider new approaches are looking at the current processes and doing things significantly different than how they have been done in the past. If then that fails then we keep trying until we find something that works. If the behavior problems the EAA is experiencing mirrors DPS then what changes are we truly making ?

**Wesley Mouch** · April-03-13, 11:30 PM

Originally Posted by firstandten

New approaches are good, never in my many posts have I ever been against new ideas. What I am against is re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic and calling it progress, what I am against is doing incremental tweaks and calling it a revolutionary new process. Its reminds me too much of doing the same damn things and hoping for a different result. What I consider new approaches are looking at the current processes and doing things significantly different than how they have been done in the past. If then that fails then we keep trying until we find something that works. If the behavior problems the EAA is experiencing mirrors DPS then what changes are we truly making ?

Yes. Keep trying. Allow experimentation. Don't judge too quickly.

Behavioral problems aren't the only problem. Maybe EAA won't fix this. But maybe it'll fix something else.

**Honky Tonk** · April-03-13, 11:48 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Yes. Keep trying. Allow experimentation. Don't judge too quickly.

Behavioral problems aren't the only problem. Maybe EAA won't fix this. But maybe it'll fix something else.

"How many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb? Only one, but the light bulb has got to WANT to change!" I guess I'm a little amazed @ people's expectations of both the EFM and the school system. Where does the State's and school's responsibility end and parent's responsibility begin? Do people actually expect both to take the blame for raising their children? I thought the point of schools was to teach, not raise children. You really thought an EFM was going to correct your child's behavior issues?

**firstandten** · April-03-13, 11:54 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Yes. Keep trying. Allow experimentation. Don't judge too quickly.

Behavioral problems aren't the only problem. Maybe EAA won't fix this. But maybe it'll fix something else.

I know what you are saying but understand behavioral issues are fundamental to learning. just like in basketball you can't shoot a 3 point shot until you learn to shoot a layup you can't began to learn until you get behavior issues like insubordination, excessive talking and fighting under control. That's why I guess I got a little angry when Mr. Roberts talked about increased test scores and he was called out on it. Then when the article about the behavior issues came out I then knew by definition what Roberts was saying was a line of BS.

**Honky Tonk** · April-04-13, 12:10 AM

Originally Posted by firstandten

I know what you are saying but understand behavioral issues are fundamental to learning. just like in basketball you can't shoot a 3 point shot until you learn to shoot a layup you can't began to learn until you get behavior issues like insubordination, excessive talking and fighting under control. That's why I guess I got a little angry when Mr. Roberts talked about increased test scores and he was called out on it. Then when the article about the behavior issues came out I then knew by definition what Roberts was saying was a line of BS.

I just don't get your analogy.

**firstandten** · April-04-13, 05:56 AM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

I just don't get your analogy.

In order to learn and thus test well in school first you must be focused and attentive to the task at hand. One cannot be those things if your behavior is out of control. Proper behavior is fundamental to the more difficult task of learning. Shooting a layup in basketball is a fundamental shot, it is fundamental to the more difficult task of shooting a 3 point shot.

**Honky Tonk** · April-04-13, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by firstandten

In order to learn and thus test well in school first you must be focused and attentive to the task at hand. One cannot be those things if your behavior is out of control. Proper behavior is fundamental to the more difficult task of learning. Shooting a layup in basketball is a fundamental shot, it is fundamental to the more difficult task of shooting a 3 point shot.

Let me just say that Babe Ruth wasn't much of a diversified hitter, his forte WAS batting it out of the park. I don't understand, as stated in my other posts, why a child's behavior pattern necessarily is a reflection on the State or EFM. When I was sent to the Principal's office, my parents were called in to deal with me. They were told in no uncertain terms, if I continued my disruptive behavior, they would be looking for a new school for me. Today it seems, children have become wards of the State. If the kid doesn't show up, is obnoxious and disruptive when he does, doesn't do homework, then fails, somehow this is a reflection on the teacher or the governor. Outside forces can give it their "best effort", but Snyder, the EFM, OR the teacher, isn't going to show up @ every kid's home, and follow-up that they're doing what they're supposed to. That's the part I don't get.

**firstandten** · April-04-13, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Let me just say that Babe Ruth wasn't much of a diversified hitter, his forte WAS batting it out of the park. I don't understand, as stated in my other posts, why a child's behavior pattern necessarily is a reflection on the State or EFM. When I was sent to the Principal's office, my parents were called in to deal with me. They were told in no uncertain terms, if I continued my disruptive behavior, they would be looking for a new school for me. Today it seems, children have become wards of the State. If the kid doesn't show up, is obnoxious and disruptive when he does, doesn't do homework, then fails, somehow this is a reflection on the teacher or the governor. Outside forces can give it their "best effort", but Snyder, the EFM, OR the teacher, isn't going to show up @ every kid's home, and follow-up that they're doing what they're supposed to. That's the part I don't get.

A kids misbehavior is not a reflection on the Gov or EFM, it is a reflection of the kids home life. My only point is this, and I pretty much stated it in post #8. The EAA by promising increased learning [[test scores) can't even do that until they address the behavior issues in the schools. How do they do that? Well that's for smarter people than me to figure out. I already stated in the past that I would like to see boarding schools in Detroit, but that a subject for another thread.