Penske Corporate HQ - Why Bloomfield if Penske's such a Detroit booster?

[bailey]

And all these new areas are building light rail and densifying their core city neighborhoods. Houston's downtown and midtown areas are growing like gangbusters, and the city has a long term plan for light rail across the entire city. Meanwhile, Detroit still lives in 1961, as Detroitnerd said.

That may or may not be true for the same reason, however, you've made my point for me. None if it EXISTS NOW. Houston has had their one rail line running one route since the 80s. so, for the person making the choice, they're choosing the same sprawl. Except one is in a nicer climate and likely has a job there.

[iheartthed]

Yes, they are. Detroit is a net receiver jurisdiction. The net donor jurisdictions are subsidizing Detroit.

Okay, be sure to give the bankruptcy judge that bit of information when Detroit files.

[Detroitnerd]

Well, that may be, but those who are "well educated, up-to-date and ... moving to real cities" in fact arent. Some of them are moving to NYC, but the vast majority are moving to Dallas, Houston, Phoneix, and Arlington..etc.

You overstate things. Some are moving to those places, the vast majority? It looks like a pretty wide spectrum, sun and rain, cold and heat. But what you can draw from this map is that people are leaving Detroit and going to ... mostly other cities. In fact, the one place they seem to be moving to Detroit from is Virginia Beach, hardly a major city with bad weather and oppressive transit.

http://www.forbes.com/2010/06/04/mig...nties-map.html

What don't we offer here that they do in New York and San Francisco? In Boston and Washington, D.C.? In Portland and Seattle? In Chicago and Philadelphia? Just a thought. As you were, Bailey.

Um. no. but in this instance, you rejected Bham's posit that Detroit's weather has something to do with people's desire not to want to walk everywhere. I simply pointed out that per the census. the vast majority of the growth in metro areas in this country are in more temperate climates in the south and west.

I rejected it because people don't freak out about walking several blocks to a subway in New York. Because, frankly, New Yorkers aren't provincial. And it's correct to reject correlative information as causative. Furthermore, do these theories seem to be borne out by the Forbes map?

I don't think you quite understand my point. I'm not anti transit or pro sprawl. We should have comprehensive, multi modal transit. however, I'm just saying that is a minority position here and if migration trends are to be believed .. a minority position nationally when it comes to where people choose to live. ... People go where the jobs are and all else is secondary.

People go where the jobs are is partly true. There are plenty of jobs in Alaska. And yet women overwhelmingly choose not to go there. And young men will go, but only half the year.

There are jobs in California. But also a high cost of living that keeps people limited in the kind of home they can buy.

There are jobs in New York City. But to pay to educate your family in private school is a significant cost that will not attract a lot of people who have children unless they're top earners.

Studies show that the better educated, better qualified and more creative young people are, the more likely they are to pick the kind of environment they want and then either find opportunities there or make their own once they get there.

Therefore, we should be attracting people who like all four seasons, are not intimidated by a few months of snow, gladly trade it for the sunshine and nearby recreational opportunities and vibrant urban life, with choices ranging from upscale Birmingham to accessible Ferndale to the Midtown bubble and grittier locales in between.

The point is, when you're a region, you try to play it smart. If having a dense part of town that is served by transit slows the outflow of educated young people and draws people looking to get in on the ground floor, that's a strength. How well are we doing by offering exclusively suburban environments? How is that going to pay off for us? We already have probably 10 years' worth of bigfoot homes to sell and a generation graduating from college with meager savings and heavy debt waiting for a recovery that seems to recede into the future. Who is going to pay for these homes at $300K a pop and pump $6 a gallon gas into their cars to drive to jobs?

As smart businesspeople know, you want to be slightly ahead of that curve. If businesspeople only invested in stuff that everybody else was doing, what progress would there be? You've got to get with the times.

Think of Carl's Chop House. That place was in business forever, right? Why did it close? The model was so successful, right? Three martini business lunches, corporate accounts, and everybody loves red meat, right?

Well, times changed, and Carl's didn't. Corporate accounts dwindled, business lunches were more likely to be monitored by bean-counters, drinking on the job became prohibited by a lot of employee manuals and, frankly, people started lunching lighter, not wanting to get all logy from eating a steak for lunch.

The way I see it, metro Detroit is like Carl's. If Carl's wants to survive, it should change. Maybe not drastically, but maybe Carl's should expand a bit, offer a sunlit cafe in the rear, offer some vegetarian and vegan choices on the menu, consider a thriftier menu out on the patio.

To point to the status quo in defense of business as usual is circuitous reasoning ... and we do so at our peril.

[DetroitPlanner]

Between moves by Compuware, Blue Cross and Quicken Detroit has already pulled 12-15k in jobs from the burbs. The trend is definitely to consolidating in the CBD, why be so bitter towards those who are already helping out Detroit in other ways? Hantz lives in Rosedale Park. He probably has a pretty easy commute to Telegraph and the Lodge.

Why not bring up how the Lions may have built Ford Field in Detroit, but built the HQ in Allen Park to evade paying city income taxes?

Look as far as the world is concerned Southfield and Bloomfield ARE Detroit@

[iheartthed]

Between moves by Compuware, Blue Cross and Quicken Detroit has already pulled 12-15k in jobs from the burbs. The trend is definitely to consolidating in the CBD, why be so bitter towards those who are already helping out Detroit in other ways? Hantz lives in Rosedale Park. He probably has a pretty easy commute to Telegraph and the Lodge.

Why not bring up how the Lions may have built Ford Field in Detroit, but built the HQ in Allen Park to evade paying city income taxes?

Look as far as the world is concerned Southfield and Bloomfield ARE Detroit@

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. The city is effectively broke and the only way to change that trajectory is for tax paying entities to be physically located in the actual city of Detroit, and not just located in imaginary Detroit.

[Hypestyles]

curious. I had no idea where the Penske Group HQ was at. Well, there's certainly more than enough room to relocate to a downtown building.

If Compuware ends up being bought out and gutted/dissolved, there will be some needed space/ownership in the Compuware building.

Beyond that, maybe Dan Gilbert and/or Mr. Ilitch can convince Roger P to send some non-core staff downtown as an "experiment".

[Jimaz]

Well, true, but most of us think of a brisk walk or bike ride through a lively neighborhood to get to work in five minutes, not traveling like this:

HA! There's an HOV lane there.

[Detroitnerd]

HA! There's an HOV lane there.

It saves approximately 200 gallons of jet fuel per passenger-lane-mile-hour. Who says we can't go green?

[Wesley Mouch]

Unless you look at all the taxes and fees that Detroiters pay. And also include the money that is extracted from Detroit privately. That provides a better view.

I know this is wasted on you, though.

Wasted on me too. What on earth are you talking about? Detroit as a source of wealth that's being 'extracted'? What?

[Wesley Mouch]

Bloomfield Hills is in Detroit. Detroit is an idea. I care not about municipal boundaries. Ich bin a Detroiter, baby.

[Detroitnerd]

Wasted on me too. What on earth are you talking about? Detroit as a source of wealth that's being 'extracted'? What?

In some ways, yes.

For all the party store owners who live outside the city.

For all the landlords who live in the suburbs.

For all the CVSs and RiteAids that vacuum up the money and send it to some regional accounting office.

For all the fast food restaurants and franchises owned by people in the suburbs.

It's just common sense, not some conspiracy. If you have a successful business in Detroit, you can afford to live somewhere better. So a lot of the money that goes into the community doesn't stay in the city.

I guess it works in reverse too, when suburbanites drive into Detroit to buy their drugs. At least drug dealers are likely to spend money in the community.

Over the years we've discussed the idea of the total tax bill of Detroiters. I'd like to see a study on that. What if you were to count in all taxes, including sales taxes and gas taxes as well as all other state and federal taxes, as well as city taxes that go to stuff it's very difficult to access [[Detroiters have traditionally paid in taxes for a MetroPark system, even though a significant percentage don't have a car and can't access them, or the way Detroit is forced to pay "tipping fees" to subsidize suburban waste systems that use the incinerator). I think you'd find that Detroiters do subsidize gold-plated roads and other services in Oakland County even as their own infrastructure falls apart. And even if it didn't tip into subsidy, I'm sure that it would be more regressive, i.e. a higher percentage of their income goes to taxes than you'd think.

Wes, your incredulity aside, and if you really are serious about regionalism, we have to get beyond this idea of the suburbs as paying for Detroit. Wealth is also extracted from Detroit and goes to the suburbs. Once there, that wealth cannot be used to fix the city.

The really sad thing is that if we could institute some sort of regional taxes to fund a center, mass transit and really subsidize the urban prospect, all 140-odd fiefdoms would see the benefits of it rapidly. Instead, Detroit is doomed because you have a system that builds out to the detriment of the center, then blame the center for being poor. If that's how you push for regionalism, you're doing it wrong.

[Bham1982]

Bloomfield Hills is in Detroit. Detroit is an idea. I care not about municipal boundaries. Ich bin a Detroiter, baby.

Yes, I agree, and the folks saying otherwise aren't being completely truthful. When they say "Detroit" they don't mean the city of Detroit either. They mean Downtown and Midtown. The rest of the city can burn down, as long as a taxpayer subsidized Applebees opens on Woodward.

[bigjeff]

Yes most of the upper echelon of Penske brass live in the area of Telegraph and Long Lake Road. You also have to remember the reason Mr. Penske is in Bloomfield Hills is the close proximity to Oakland International Airport where he keeps his planes. Unless City Airport expands its runways, I don't believe they can accommodate Mr. Penske's needs. He has around 200 employees at his HQ in Bloomfield counting administrative assistants, secretaries to janitors.

[p69rrh51]

Yes most of the upper echelon of Penske brass live in the area of Telegraph and Long Lake Road. You also have to remember the reason Mr. Penske is in Bloomfield Hills is the close proximity to Oakland International Airport where he keeps his planes. Unless City Airport expands its runways, I don't believe they can accommodate Mr. Penske's needs. He has around 200 employees at his HQ in Bloomfield counting administrative assistants, secretaries to janitors.

The runways at city are just fine. Most crews REFUSE to land or stay in Detroit. The crews that do land in Detroit always move the plane to Oakland unless of course they are the very few that fly out of city.

[Wesley Mouch]

The runways at city are just fine. Most crews REFUSE to land or stay in Detroit. The crews that do land in Detroit always move the plane to Oakland unless of course they are the very few that fly out of city.

A decade ago, I was told by a reliable source in the aviation industry that City Airport was one of the most expensive airports for ground services and fuel. That I believe to be true.

The presumed reason was that Detroit cared more about who got the contract than what the rates to users were. Issuing contracts to friends and family is a problem in Detroit, so I'm guessing this is true.

So this may have little to do with racism or anti-Detroitism, and more to do with money. Its just cheaper to go to Oakland.

Remember, follow the money.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

There are what, approximately 5 million people in Metro Detroit? I would like them all to be Detroit boosters. But we wouldn't have room for all of them to live and work here even if they wanted to. I was a bona fide Detroit booster when I lived in New York. And Detroit would be much worse off if our suburbs were devoid of sucessful big businesses. If Mr. Penske thinks his business is better situated where it currently is, I am a few billion short of being able to question his judgment. He's a hell of a guy, good for Detroit, and I think is a suburbanite who pushes other suburbanites to give Detroit a shot.

[p69rrh51]

A decade ago, I was told by a reliable source in the aviation industry that City Airport was one of the most expensive airports for ground services and fuel. That I believe to be true.

The presumed reason was that Detroit cared more about who got the contract than what the rates to users were. Issuing contracts to friends and family is a problem in Detroit, so I'm guessing this is true.

So this may have little to do with racism or anti-Detroitism, and more to do with money. Its just cheaper to go to Oakland.

Remember, follow the money.

I have a good friend who keeps his plane at City its much less expensive for him to keep the plane there than Oakland. From what he tells me its the crews and their prejudices about the city.

[Gistok]

Well... Masco [[Manoogian) is in Taylor, Ford [[Ford) is in Dearborn, Taubman [[Tabuman) is in Bloomfield Hills. Don't know why Penske is being singled out for criticism here... he's not the only Detroit booster with suburban HQs.

[Wesley Mouch]

I have a good friend who keeps his plane at City its much less expensive for him to keep the plane there than Oakland. From what he tells me its the crews and their prejudices about the city.

I was referring not to housing costs, but to fuel and other ground services -- but I don't have facts to backup any of that -- so you may well be correct.

Tell me though, is it a prejudice to not want to come into Detroit where there is clearly a higher crime/murder rate than most suburbs? Prejudice is making a decision before knowing. I think the facts about Detroit suggest its not prejudgment, but simply an informed judgement. Me, I'm not bothered by the city and its crime rate. I bicycle around City Airport for fun.

[wolverine]

I'm betting a lot of the people who work there live out there. Penske may be a forward-thinking guy, but I bet a lot of his employees would be pissy about having to drive downtown, park downtown, and drive home each day.

Heck, it may not be such a bad thing for now. Until we have a serious mass transit system, I'm a little wary of having every business locate downtown, because it'll mean a profusion of parking garages perhaps threatening the very architecture that has such value.

That's a good point. Really going to take some easing into with new growth. I'm seriously betting we'll see plenty more jobs moving downtown. But the large garage construction makes me nervous.

[p69rrh51]

I was referring not to housing costs, but to fuel and other ground services -- but I don't have facts to backup any of that -- so you may well be correct.

Tell me though, is it a prejudice to not want to come into Detroit where there is clearly a higher crime/murder rate than most suburbs? Prejudice is making a decision before knowing. I think the facts about Detroit suggest its not prejudgment, but simply an informed judgement. Me, I'm not bothered by the city and its crime rate. I bicycle around City Airport for fun.

City does not bother me either, and I know you were saying total cost. For my friend his costs are lower maybe not for the expensive jets. As for the crews from what I understand they make decisions on reputation not an what they actually know.

[tkelly1986]

Well... Masco [[Manoogian) is in Taylor, Ford [[Ford) is in Dearborn, Taubman [[Tabuman) is in Bloomfield Hills. Don't know why Penske is being singled out for criticism here... he's not the only Detroit booster with suburban HQs.

Penske was used as an example, but why not discuss Masco ect..Masco has one of the worst HQs in metro Detroit, sandwiched next to a Kmart. Taubman is another one who should be lured.

My main point is that people love to criticize the city, and try to act as saviors, but god forbid they put any skin in the game. Moreover, I am sick of the excuse that "people don’t want to drive in to the city". What do you think suburbanites from Chicago, Atlanta, Houston, Washington DC, LA, Seattle ect.. Do? It’s just a lazy excuse. If you want the city to turn around, make the extra effort and stop being an arm chair urban planner expecting someone else to invest in the city, or work down there so that the city becomes nicer for when you attend a Red Wings or Tigers game.

[townonenorth]

Go ahead. Be my guest, kick and scream and resist the future until metro Detroit is a forgotten backwater. I really don't care anymore.

What do you mean, until?

[Wesley Mouch]

Penske was used as an example, but why not discuss Masco ect..Masco has one of the worst HQs in metro Detroit, sandwiched next to a Kmart. Taubman is another one who should be lured.

My main point is that people love to criticize the city, and try to act as saviors, but god forbid they put any skin in the game. Moreover, I am sick of the excuse that "people don’t want to drive in to the city". What do you think suburbanites from Chicago, Atlanta, Houston, Washington DC, LA, Seattle ect.. Do? It’s just a lazy excuse. If you want the city to turn around, make the extra effort and stop being an arm chair urban planner expecting someone else to invest in the city, or work down there so that the city becomes nicer for when you attend a Red Wings or Tigers game.

Why do you choose to harshly criticize people who are on your side?

OK, I too would love to see these guys with HQs downtown. And maybe they will when they build a new HQ.

But you know what? I'm just really happy that these guys are in Detroit at all. Better to complain about companies that have moved to Chicago.

Get over the fact that they don't think exactly like you, and rejoice that they are.

[tkelly1986]

Why do you choose to harshly criticize people who are on your side?

OK, I too would love to see these guys with HQs downtown. And maybe they will when they build a new HQ.

But you know what? I'm just really happy that these guys are in Detroit at all. Better to complain about companies that have moved to Chicago.

Get over the fact that they don't think exactly like you, and rejoice that they are.

I was not trying to criticize you, but rather just vent about the various people, whether that be law firms, ad agencies [[though we did get a win today with Campbell-Ewald), parts suppliers ect..Who are so concerned about the turnaround of Detroit, but want to stay in their cushy suburban office campus.