Gilbert seeks ideas for developing Hudson's site in Detroit

[canuck]

I like that Gilbert has decided to open up to new ideas on developing this site.

I think there should be other developers investigating potential development with the help of international designers. Major property holders in the city might get a better appreciation of said potential from outsiders, who may look at Detroit's fabled architecture and historic grid as something fresh and exciting.


http://www.freep.com/article/2013022...xt|FRONTPAGE|p

[401don]

Good news but I was hoping he was further along on this and was ready to start construction on a residential building for the site.

[grancan]

Kudos to Gilbert & Company for having the stones to move forward in these questionable times. I agree with canuck. Outside eyes and perspectives can be invaluable in the the revitalization of Detroit spaces near and dear to all of us. Nothing will ever recapture the original store or that feeling at Christmas time we experienced watching the parade or visiting the toy floor as kids, but filling the void all over Detroit is important. If Gilbert has some ideas, I'm behind him.

[Gistok]

Well I think that the perfect fit for that spot is something that complements the surroundings... and NOT sticks out like a sore thumb. And that would also involve keeping the streetwall... a very important ingredient. The previous images with several buildings with "carport" roofs was not very appealing... regardless if it had "plaza" areas around the buildings.

Here's an idea that incorporates some NYC architectural ideas that want to "fit" into the historic district there. Why not make a large square "O" shaped building with a hollow center above the 3rd floor. They could have all the apartments/condos around the perimeter, and perhaps a skylight over the entire area, with a common swimming pool, greenery [[why not Palms?)... and a climate controlled core. The surrounding hollow building could complement the neighborhood by having every 40 or 50 ft. of the building appear to be a different building. They could even have an architectural contest for each section, although it would all be one large structure.

I could even see a sort of civic "who's who" of Detroit's great families. Just as the Medici's Bourbon's, Hapsburgs and other old patrons of the arts had their names involved with grand structures... each section of the building could have a section named after them with their crest or name engraved into their part of the structure... "Manoogian", "Taubman", "Fisher", "Buhl Ford", "Brush Ford", "Clay Ford", "Hudson", "Karmanos", "Ilitch", "Penske", and even "Gilbert".... at say $1 million each... to help offset the architectural costs. Sort of a family memorial for Detroit's elite along the main thoroughfare...

The first 3 floors could be a 3 level arcade with shopping on the first floor, and offices/commercial on the 2nd and 3rd floor... but with a possible conversion to future retail for the 2nd and 3rd floor if the need ever arises.

Rather than a garish glass and steel uni-structure monstrosity... something modern, yet with a flair for the past and yet fit within the street wall could be something like this, just a few architectural sections as an example... of course unlike these pics... the floor levels would have to line up for hallways, etc...

[canuck]

I felt the same about the first proposals we saw for the site Gistok, especially the huge proportion given to parking. I like the fact that Gilbert probably got an earful from his relations, consultants and maybe from concerned citizens about the loose ended proposal. It seems to me, Detroit cant waste too many opportunities to get it right, or at least to achieve relative success through innovation in new urban projects.

The fact he is ready to take his time and evaluate new proposals is healthy. We have to remember that he is not rooted in development like a Taubman is, but his knowledge of real estate values definitely will help him build something remarkable if the right people, the right spirit glides this project along.

I would see a strong cultural component to this project, a sort of emotional nerve center for downtown, a magnet for metropolitan detroiters. Dan needs to take his time and do this right.

[gthomas]

I see something like this on the Hudson site, this is in Calgary.

[Gistok]

I see something like this on the Hudson site, this is in Calgary.

That's 20 stories above the 15-18 story height limit that the underground parking structure was built to carry.

[southen]

That's 20 stories above the 15-18 story height limit that the underground parking structure was built to carry.

plus its hideous...

[bailey]

plus its hideous...

yes, but leaps and bounds better than Compuware and One Kennedy.

[Gistok]

yes, but leaps and bounds better than Compuware and One Kennedy.

I will grant you One Kennedy... but the entrance facade [[only) of Compuware isn't all that bad... too bad it doesn't match the rest of the building!

[tkelly1986]

My hope is that the design will pay homage to the Hudson’s building. It can still have some modern elements, but hopefully the past is not completely ignored. And clearly this can be done, as we’ve all seen hundreds of examples that make you ask “is this new construction or from the 1920?”

[bailey]

My hope is that the design will pay homage to the Hudson’s building. It can still have some modern elements, but hopefully the past is not completely ignored. And clearly this can be done, as we’ve all seen hundreds of examples that make you ask “is this new construction or from the 1920?”

But that wouldn't be "striking" or "bold". It would be "boring" and "derivative". Firms looking for a signature project aren't going to present something in a design competition that will fade into the existing background and look like it's always been there...unless that's a direct order from the client...which I doubt is the order given by Gilbert.

Its going to be some sort of all glass origami looking monstrosity with no street wall, a vast courtyard, and ample parking.

[Honky Tonk]

I like that Gilbert has decided to open up to new ideas on developing this site.

I think there should be other developers investigating potential development with the help of international designers. Major property holders in the city might get a better appreciation of said potential from outsiders, who may look at Detroit's fabled architecture and historic grid as something fresh and exciting.


http://www.freep.com/article/2013022...xt|FRONTPAGE|p

Commendable, but with all the empty floor space STILL available in downtown Detroit, is this really necessary?

[southen]

personally i think Detroit needs more modern buildings. a city centered around design and producing "new" vehicles each year should push the envelope when it comes to its buildings. preserve what we have, but on these empty lots downtown I would like modern structures, not buildings attempting to recreate our past. my two cents though.

[Gistok]

But that wouldn't be "striking" or "bold". It would be "boring" and "derivative". Firms looking for a signature project aren't going to present something in a design competition that will fade into the existing background and look like it's always been there...unless that's a direct order from the client...which I doubt is the order given by Gilbert.

Its going to be some sort of all glass origami looking monstrosity with no street wall, a vast courtyard, and ample parking.

Since Gilbert is talking residential... I don't think that "cutting edge" works well with "oregami"... especially when you consider that probably nothing that Frank Gehry has ever designed included windows at twisted angles that could be opened... which would be a residential requirement. 1001 Woodward Ave. failed as potential residential because it would have remained a sealed building.

[bailey]

Commendable, but with all the empty floor space STILL available in downtown Detroit, is this really necessary?

Reportedly this is going to be primarily residential....which there is very little available in the CBD.

[bailey]

Since Gilbert is talking residential... I don't think that "cutting edge" works well with "oregami"... especially when you consider that probably nothing that Frank Gehry has ever designed included windows at twisted angles that could be opened... which would be a residential requirement. 1001 Woodward Ave. failed as potential residential because it would have remained a sealed building.

Pretty sure Gehry has done a lot of residential too. I know he did a residential tower in NYC. Looks like it's melting to me. I don't know what its called.

In any event, I don't expect the final design to deviate too much from what we've already seen proposed. A cluster of oddly shaped bland glass buildings arranged around a courtyard. It'll be Partridge Creek with residential slapped on top.

[swingline]

Well I think that the perfect fit for that spot is something that complements the surroundings... and NOT sticks out like a sore thumb. And that would also involve keeping the streetwall... a very important ingredient. The previous images with several buildings with "carport" roofs was not very appealing... regardless if it had "plaza" areas around the buildings.

Here's an idea that incorporates some NYC architectural ideas that want to "fit" into the historic district there. Why not make a large square "O" shaped building with a hollow center above the 3rd floor. They could have all the apartments/condos around the perimeter, and perhaps a skylight over the entire area, with a common swimming pool, greenery [[why not Palms?)... and a climate controlled core. The surrounding hollow building could complement the neighborhood by having every 40 or 50 ft. of the building appear to be a different building. They could even have an architectural contest for each section, although it would all be one large structure.

I could even see a sort of civic "who's who" of Detroit's great families. Just as the Medici's Bourbon's, Hapsburgs and other old patrons of the arts had their names involved with grand structures... each section of the building could have a section named after them with their crest or name engraved into their part of the structure... "Manoogian", "Taubman", "Fisher", "Buhl Ford", "Brush Ford", "Clay Ford", "Hudson", "Karmanos", "Ilitch", "Penske", and even "Gilbert".... at say $1 million each... to help offset the architectural costs. Sort of a family memorial for Detroit's elite along the main thoroughfare...

The first 3 floors could be a 3 level arcade with shopping on the first floor, and offices/commercial on the 2nd and 3rd floor... but with a possible conversion to future retail for the 2nd and 3rd floor if the need ever arises.

Rather than a garish glass and steel uni-structure monstrosity... something modern, yet with a flair for the past and yet fit within the street wall could be something like this, just a few architectural sections as an example... of course unlike these pics... the floor levels would have to line up for hallways, etc...

Gistok, faux historicism almost always produces bad architecture. Fortunately, the Hudson building site is not part of the Lower Woodward Historic District and the developer will not be constrained – legally anyway – to produce some sort of “historic” design. The developer should instead be tasked to produce a modern design that uses the best materials. No massive precast panels ala Studio One Apt's, Auburn Apt's or Millender Center. It's too important a site for a cheap building.

Speaking of money, $75 million seems a little light to construct a properly scaled building on that large of a site. But maybe not. The 1225 Old Town project got built in Chicago for about that number. It’s a mixed use 16 story, 250 unit project that actually preserved and incorporated a couple of low-rise commercial facades including the Grossinger Cadillac storefront [[Chicago’s Dalgleish Cadillac). Gistok, you would approve. This is a pretty good example of what the Hudson site could support.



Something like the DNA Phase 3 project in Toronto could also work on the Hudson site.

[Gistok]

Gistok, faux historicism almost always produces bad architecture.

Here's a website with about 2000 images of "historicism"... with over 1000 that show otherwise...

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1022349

[DetroitPlanner]

Seriously, complaining about how the building looks should be the least of the issues. He won't build a pile of crap, that is a given. What I question is what market is he going for? What will the building offer that others lack?

[Hypestyles]

what's the maximum number of stories that can be built atop the garage?

[Spartan]

Speaking of money, $75 million seems a little light to construct a properly scaled building on that large of a site. But maybe not. The 1225 Old Town project got built in Chicago for about that number. It’s a mixed use 16 story, 250 unit project that actually preserved and incorporated a couple of low-rise commercial facades including the Grossinger Cadillac storefront [[Chicago’s Dalgleish Cadillac). Gistok, you would approve. This is a pretty good example of what the Hudson site could support.

This example would be great for the Hudson site.

Whatever goes up, if there is residential and I'm still around when it's done, I'll certainly look into the possibility of moving there.

[downtownguy]

As much as I loathe parking structures, I'm happy with the way they designed the garage across from Compuware on Woodward. It clearly pays homage to Hudson's.

street view of garage

However, I would like to see any new parking structures off Woodward, as they did further up the street at the Ellington Lofts and Garden Theatre.


Ellington Lofts
Garden Theatre

Since the Hudson's block is so big, I wonder if it would be possible to nest parking in the core of the building, leaving all the human habitats open to street views?

[swingline]

Here's a website with about 2000 images of "historicism"... with over 1000 that show otherwise...

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1022349

Admittedly it's a fine line between respecting the architectural context of a site and lazy mimicry of historic styles. Unchecked historicism too often can produce this:





Ottawa County Courthouse, Grand Haven, MI



Lighthouse Point Condominium, St. Joseph, MI



251 N. Rose, Kalamazoo, MI




Hobbs Taylor Lofts, Lawrence, KS

[401don]

Since the Hudson's block is so big, I wonder if it would be possible to nest parking in the core of the building, leaving all the human habitats open to street views?[/QUOTE]

Why do they need more parking when there's already 750 spots underneath?