Has Detroit Common Council taken any budget reductions?...

[Al Publican]

Curious if city council members still have city provided cars. What about reductions in council salaries and staff budgets?

If I recall right, most of the 20 biggest cities in the council have part time city councils.

What is the current salary of a Common Council member?

[313WX]

Their cuts have been miniscule.

Then of course you have one council member receiving a pension as well.

I understand getting what's owed to you, but at the same tme it irks me that you're double-dipping in the city's funds while rubber stamping all sorts of austerity on the folks that elected you.

[corktownyuppie]

Their cuts have been miniscule.

Then of course you have one council member receiving a pension as well.

I understand getting what's owed to you, but at the same tme it irks me that you're double-dipping in the city's funds while rubber stamping all sorts of austerity on the folks that elected you.

I'll stand with you on that.

[Crumbled_pavement]

Why would the city council cut any of their own budgets or perks? They're royalty -- or so they think.

[bailey]

In their defense...what would it matter? It's maybe 5? 10 million there that they could cut if they cut right to the bone?

Hundreds of millions in structural deficits and 15 billion in debt, if the CC fires all staff and turns in the keys to the city vehicle, that isn't going to do anything. At best it would be good PR, but really, like anything else done outside of bankruptcy, it's still just rearranging deck chairs.

[Honky Tonk]

In their defense...what would it matter? It's maybe 5? 10 million there that they could cut if they cut right to the bone?

Hundreds of millions in structural deficits and 15 billion in debt, if the CC fires all staff and turns in the keys to the city vehicle, that isn't going to do anything. At best it would be good PR, but really, like anything else done outside of bankruptcy, it's still just rearranging deck chairs.

The posts on here crack me up. [[NOT yours in particular) Every couple of days, someone posts something about cutbacks, and the general reply is, "That's only $5 mil, or $6 mil, or $13 mil. I bet if you started adding all the "mils" up, it would start turning into a significant number.

[bailey]

The posts on here crack me up. [[NOT yours in particular) Every couple of days, someone posts something about cutbacks, and the general reply is, "That's only $5 mil, or $6 mil, or $13 mil. I bet if you started adding all the "mils" up, it would start turning into a significant number.

No, I get it and I agree. However, my point is that the time for tinkering at the margins is long past. Staff cuts here and there... fringe benefit cuts here and there... are all well and good, but Detroit is never going to right itself making marginal tweaks. Wholesale across the board change needs to happen and it's likely not going to outside of BK or an FM with BK like powers.

[kenp]

I have always thought that less pay would be a benefit to Detroit. Many who are on council are there because its a good paying gig. I want people on council that actually care about the city.

[DetroitPlanner]

I have always thought that less pay would be a benefit to Detroit. Many who are on council are there because its a good paying gig. I want people on council that actually care about the city.

To be fair, its not such a good paying gig any longer. 15-20 years ago maybe it was. You could make the same amount as a high level staffer and not have to worry so much about losing your job [[unless you decide to take an appointment).

[JJD]

In their defense...what would it matter? It's maybe 5? 10 million there that they could cut if they cut right to the bone?

Hundreds of millions in structural deficits and 15 billion in debt, if the CC fires all staff and turns in the keys to the city vehicle, that isn't going to do anything. At best it would be good PR, but really, like anything else done outside of bankruptcy, it's still just rearranging deck chairs.

What better do they have to do except rearrange the chairs? I think cutting their own staff and frivoulous expenses like cars and drivers would be great for PR, and show they are willing to share the sacrifices required by the working rank and file. I also think our city council panders to the loud few instead of the quiet majority who don't have time to spend all day at the CAY building. 5 or 10 million is a ton of money. What if they used that 5million to hire people and collect the 200 million in owed taxes?

Samll savings add up. 5million here, 5 million from cutting the same waste from the Mayor's personal staff, and you start seeing changes. You can expect to find a single savings idea that will wipe out the debt fro years of reckless waste. I agree bankruptcy is in our near future, I just wish Council would do their job to help the city instead of standing in the way of progress.

[JJD]

unfortunately, I think the "good paying" part of the job comes from the "extras" some are recieving in exchange for their votes, not that $80k salary is a bad paying job, plus your friends, sorry I mean staff, get up to $100k too. I think that is enough incentive for greedy self-serving people to stay on council as opposed to those trying to better the city.

[Wesley Mouch]

In their defense...what would it matter? It's maybe 5? 10 million there that they could cut if they cut right to the bone?

Hundreds of millions in structural deficits and 15 billion in debt, if the CC fires all staff and turns in the keys to the city vehicle, that isn't going to do anything. At best it would be good PR, but really, like anything else done outside of bankruptcy, it's still just rearranging deck chairs.

Sorry to strongly disagree. This type of thinking is precisely why Detroit is in the mess that it is.

This isn't unlike the 'broken windows' theory.

If something is wrong, you fix it. That's it. No excuses.

[bailey]

Sorry to strongly disagree. This type of thinking is precisely why Detroit is in the mess that it is.

This isn't unlike the 'broken windows' theory.

If something is wrong, you fix it. That's it. No excuses.

Well, it depends on if anyone on council thinks anything they do is "wrong". Judging by the time many of them have sat in their chair, all the feedback they need they get at the ballot box.

If any of them felt accountable to the voters, perhaps they'd make meaningless PR cuts, like the staff...etc. Until the usual suspects get thrown out on their ass for standing the way of those cuts, no one is going to give a damn.

I'm saying that in terms of hills to die on...whether a few million come off CC's budget is pretty meaningless.

[kenp]

I'm saying that in terms of hills to die on...whether a few million come off CC's budget is pretty meaningless.

Sounds just like my wife when we argue about money.

[Gistok]

The posts on here crack me up. [[NOT yours in particular) Every couple of days, someone posts something about cutbacks, and the general reply is, "That's only $5 mil, or $6 mil, or $13 mil. I bet if you started adding all the "mils" up, it would start turning into a significant number.

Honky Tonk... your comment reminded me of the comment of the late great Illinois US Senator Everett McKinley Dirksen about the federal government spending... "a billion here and a billion there... and pretty soon it adds up to real money!"...

[Gistok]

What is the current salary of a Common Council member?

Hey Al... you're "dating" yourself... I haven't heard it called "Common Council" since "DSR" days....

[kenp]

What is the current salary of a Common Council member?

http://www.hourdetroit.com/Hour-Detr.../Pay-for-Pols/

[bailey]

http://www.hourdetroit.com/Hour-Detr.../Pay-for-Pols/

there are several major cities on that list with part time CC. I would think that is a great place to start. I mean if Dallas can be run by part timers making 37.5k, Detroit certainly can. however, if you think the council would do that itself, ya'll cra-cra. [[also I have no idea what the charter has to say about it.)

[Wesley Mouch]

Well, it depends on if anyone on council thinks anything they do is "wrong". Judging by the time many of them have sat in their chair, all the feedback they need they get at the ballot box.

If any of them felt accountable to the voters, perhaps they'd make meaningless PR cuts, like the staff...etc. Until the usual suspects get thrown out on their ass for standing the way of those cuts, no one is going to give a damn.

I'm saying that in terms of hills to die on...whether a few million come off CC's budget is pretty meaningless.

Meaningless PR cuts. Wow. And on we go. I'm not sure even bankruptcy will change that attitude. Wow.

[bailey]

Meaningless PR cuts. Wow. And on we go. I'm not sure even bankruptcy will change that attitude. Wow.

They are meaningless when it's a drop in the bucket and there are much bigger cuts necessary. hundreds of millions in structural deficits. 15 billion in long term debt. 60 cents of every dollar in revenue going to salary or pension obligations.... cutting a few staffers pay by 10% is nothing but PR. oooh, look at us being all austere, we can't seem to figure out how to get belle isle offloaded to the state to save 6 mill a year, but yea couple of hundred thou saved on staffing is REALLY gonna turn the city around.

[rex]

ha.
CC is just pissed. Their predecessors were able to steal with impunity and their predecessors predecessors were able to steal with impunity. Their predecessors predecessors predecessors were able to steal with impunity.

its their turn in the catbird seat. Their turn to get fat and happy and hook their families and friends up but their every move is under the microscope.

[Eber Brock Ward]

They are meaningless when it's a drop in the bucket and there are much bigger cuts necessary. hundreds of millions in structural deficits. 15 billion in long term debt. 60 cents of every dollar in revenue going to salary or pension obligations.... cutting a few staffers pay by 10% is nothing but PR. oooh, look at us being all austere, we can't seem to figure out how to get belle isle offloaded to the state to save 6 mill a year, but yea couple of hundred thou saved on staffing is REALLY gonna turn the city around.

I think this view is partially right and partially wrong.

Read the information published in the Free Press today: http://www.freep.com/article/2013022...text|FRONTPAGE

liabilities consume 35 cents to 42 cents of every general fund dollar

Milliman outlines three scenarios for each fund. In the worst, by 2017, the Police and Fire Retirement system would have to absorb 83% of the city's payroll to maintain funding at 72%

The outlook for the general system isn't much better. If Milliman's numbers are right, the best-case scenario would see the city's contributions climb to 36% of payroll by 2016 to fund the system at 53%; the worst projections would see the city's contribution rise to 70% of payroll by 2016 to fund the pensions at 45%.

Bankruptcy or a structured settlement is the only answer. The two 500-pount gorillas in the room are [[1) pensions/retiree health care benefits and [[2) bonds.

Each need to feel the pain, just as regular citizens are already feeling the pain with crappy services [[except for garbage pickup). Everyone needs to feel it like the citizens do, not just the pensioners and not just the bondholders.

[Wesley Mouch]

...
Bankruptcy or a structured settlement is the only answer. The two 500-pount gorillas in the room are [[1) pensions/retiree health care benefits and [[2) bonds.

Each need to feel the pain, just as regular citizens are already feeling the pain with crappy services [[except for garbage pickup). Everyone needs to feel it like the citizens do, not just the pensioners and not just the bondholders.

I was in a pointless debate with a few here whether cuts to council staff were 'meaningless'... Its not about the savings, its about the attitude.

EBW is right. Everyone must feel some pain. Citizens already do. Bondholders who are making a good return on their investment must [[that's why their getting the good returns, btw). And so must the workers. Everyone.

And here's what I haven't heard explicitly said.

The problem of Detroit is bigger than Detroit, and needs to be addressed at a broader level. Its been proven that it can't/won't be done at a local level. So its gonna take some cash from the outside -- bondholders, pensioners [[who mostly live elsewhere I'll bet), and taxpayers State-wide.

They won't do this unless Detroit applies reasonable reforms and shows that they'll stick to it.

When your city council is an order of magnitude more expensive than it should be, it tells the outside stakeholders that you just don't care about 'a few hundred thousand a year'.

If we don't care, then they aren't gonna care. They won't put money into a sinkhole -- even if each of the individual problems aren't big enough to be 'meaningful'.

If you want help with your throat problem, you start by quitting cigarettes.

[Eber Brock Ward]

Yep, totally on point.

I will add a postscript to my earlier post. In addition to attacking those 500-pound gorillas, we also need to attack the day-to-day stuff, including the City Council.

The latter will be important and is the "cigarette" aspect of it. That involves cutting city council staff, DWSD restructering, a Belle Isle lease, reforming the property tax system, and tons of other things along those lines.

The former is the "throat" aspect of it. Unless we attack pensions/health care and the bondholder aspect of it, we can fix all of the short-term stuff and it won't mean a thing.

All of these aspects are necessary to fix the problems, but anything short of all of them are not sufficient to fix the problems. You have to look at it like oxygen, food, and water. It is necessary that we get oxygen each day. It is also necessary that we get food each day, as well as water. But we will not survive unless we take care of all aspects that are necessary.

[Mark Smiles]

I was in a pointless debate with a few here whether cuts to council staff were 'meaningless'... Its not about the savings, its about the attitude.

EBW is right. Everyone must feel some pain. Citizens already do. Bondholders who are making a good return on their investment must [[that's why their getting the good returns, btw). And so must the workers. Everyone.

And here's what I haven't heard explicitly said.

The problem of Detroit is bigger than Detroit, and needs to be addressed at a broader level. Its been proven that it can't/won't be done at a local level. So its gonna take some cash from the outside -- bondholders, pensioners [[who mostly live elsewhere I'll bet), and taxpayers State-wide.

They won't do this unless Detroit applies reasonable reforms and shows that they'll stick to it.

When your city council is an order of magnitude more expensive than it should be, it tells the outside stakeholders that you just don't care about 'a few hundred thousand a year'.

If we don't care, then they aren't gonna care. They won't put money into a sinkhole -- even if each of the individual problems aren't big enough to be 'meaningful'.

If you want help with your throat problem, you start by quitting cigarettes.

Why shouldn’t the voters who voted for the debt be liable for the results of their votes?

Voters in Detroit vote for bonds they have no intention of paying off and you expect voters/taxpayers in Grand Rapids or Warren to pick up the slack?

Don’t the people of Grand Rapids or Warren have their own bonds to pay off?

Hells bells, why not let everyone run up their credit cards, and lets force out neighbors to pay it off.

One more question, Shouldn’t those calling for Detroit to go bankrupt be first in line to loan Detroit money before the bankruptcy? It cant be they expect others to do what they are unwilling to do.