No More Indian Mascots Allowed? Are they demeaning or empowering?

**gnome** · February-09-13, 07:41 AM

http://www.freep.com/article/2013020...text|FRONTPAGE

Michigan Civil Rights Commission is asking the Feds to ban the use of all Indian mascots as demeaning to Native American children.

Not sure i am buying their argument. Do archetypal images reflect reality or a stylized fantasy? Personally, I have never felt demeaned by Thor throwing around his hammer, never felt demeaned by Elmer Fudd although I do have a follicular deficiency and I stutter on occasion.

Being of Tuetonic Origin, many images which reflect a cultural archetype, a stereotype if you will, and some are not complimentary. Vikings in particular are depicted as a rapacious lot of genocidal fiends. Long boats cruising around, waxing their long mustaches, raping and pillaging ...

So, what say you? Are Braves brave?

**canuck** · February-09-13, 08:19 AM

Yep, they're fine by me. Imagine the Chicago Black Hawks not donning the chief's head on their sweaters.

There was nothing insulting or demeaning in choosing american indian depictions to me. It proved that there was a respect for the first people and their identification with the land.

Maybe the "Mighty Ducks" are a cool name to some, but it sounds like it was "drawn on a napkin in a boardroom" type thing. Nothing to inspire; totally neutered.

**oladub** · February-09-13, 08:23 AM

Ultimately, its up to Indians themselves to weigh in. I've read of examples of tribes that ok the use of their name and others that don't. Two high schools near where I live are the Blackhawks proudly named after a local Indian chief who bravely defended his people from the US Army and the Norsemen [[and Lady Norse) named after the dominant group of settlers in the area. Both communities are proud of their chosen team names even though both communities have a Norwegian heritage. I would think it an honor to have a name chosen as inspirational but again, Indians should be considered important stakeholders. If area Winnebagos [[Ho-Chunks) decided that they were offended by the use of the name Blackhawks, then I think the community using that name should respect such a wish and rename the team Vikings, Berserkers, or something else that would reflect the community. I've never met anyone of Scandinavian descendant who isn't a bit proud of that dark part of their heritage. But please don't rename teams the Blue-golds like the UW-Eau Claire did. While it doesn't offend anyone, that name falls short of being inspirational.

**gazhekwe** · February-09-13, 09:20 AM

I am weighing in against the mascots. Far from honoring Native Americans, these caricatures demean and belittle by their cartoonish depictions and stereotyped accoutrements. It is bad for Native children in those schools, because they are expected to live up to the stereotype or forfeit their identity. It is bad for all Native people for the same reason, as non-Indians expect them to be unfailingly brave, fearless, athletically superior, and oh, by the way, have red skin, big noses and high cheekbones, long shiny straight black hair. Academic accomplishments are not recognized as contributing to Native identity.

**CassTechGrad** · February-09-13, 09:39 AM

One of my ancestors was a Cowboy in the old west after the Civil War and I think it’s insulting to his heritage to be used as a “mascot” for some sports team. I demand that this degrading use of his memory and image as a Cowboy be stopped!!!

One of my ancestors was Greek and lived in the city of Sparta and I think it’s insulting to his heritage to be used as a “mascot” for some sports team. I demand that this degrading use of his memory and image as a Spartan be stopped!!!

I could go on and on…….

**401don** · February-09-13, 09:40 AM

I think they are clearly demeaning. On a personal level I'm glad I'm not a Braves or Indians fan because the chanting and drums every night would drive me insane. If I was a Native Indian having to listen to people of another race doing it, I would be extremely offended.

**coracle** · February-09-13, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by gazhekwe

I am weighing in against the mascots. Far from honoring Native Americans, these caricatures demean and belittle by their cartoonish depictions and stereotyped accoutrements. It is bad for Native children in those schools, because they are expected to live up to the stereotype or forfeit their identity. It is bad for all Native people for the same reason, as non-Indians expect them to be unfailingly brave, fearless, athletically superior, and oh, by the way, have red skin, big noses and high cheekbones, long shiny straight black hair. Academic accomplishments are not recognized as contributing to Native identity.

As a non-Indian I don't expect Indians to be those things you tell them I think them to be. What I do think is that you have a problem. You must think these things yourself in order to write them down, and then think every non-Indian thinks the same. [[isn't that called stereotyping?)

**Wheels** · February-09-13, 09:55 AM

It's a good thing G.M. shut down Pontiac!

**renf** · February-09-13, 10:06 AM

Are there any other Irish people who are upset that the University of Notre Dame uses a violence prone, inebriated Irishman as their totem? That seems to promote the very kind of stereotyping that we have successfully discouraged with regard to Blacks and Indians. I don't understand why a university founded by a French priest - similar to the U of M in that regard - would perpetuate the once popular stereotype of Irish males as alcohol abusers and violent.

**gazhekwe** · February-09-13, 10:08 AM

Coracle, I happen to be Native and grew up in a world of stereotypes. They are leveled at us daily and completely unknowingly by both children and adults. They just "expect" us to be that way, and if we aren't then we obviously aren't "real Indians". That you believe yourself to be free of stereotypes is refreshing, but probably not actually true, as most people do not realize their understanding is based on stereotypes until they spend time learning more about the people concerned.

Wheels, as far as Pontiac, the original image was actually quite accurate, and it depicted an individual in history, without any of the "woo woo woo" mouth tapping and dancing around. Pontiac, in his lifetime, actually did wear a fur headdress maybe with a feather straight back as shown in the original image. There was nothing associated with the town or the car that discussed any personal attributes of Pontiac or the Odawa people. There was no "mascot" paraded around to show how ferocious Pontiac was. He was actually a master strategist, which no one would ever learn from the motor company image, but they did not depict him as a blood dripping, tomahawk wielding warrior, either. In our age, the name was all that remained, and could just as well refer to the town of Pontiac, for all most people know history.

**canuck** · February-09-13, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by 401don

I think they are clearly demeaning. On a personal level I'm glad I'm not a Braves or Indians fan because the chanting and drums every night would drive me insane. If I was a Native Indian having to listen to people of another race doing it, I would be extremely offended.

If you are a blue-eyed redhead Viking from Minneapolis wanting to sing and play brazilian tunes, should that be disallowed?

I think they are symbols, and relatively potent as they are, they should be respected for their ability to convey strength and inspire. I like the fact that a
LaVon Washington can play for the Celtics or Fighting Irish, it fucks with my brain, but in a good way. It's like art; there is usually an juxtaposition of two diametrically opposed objects/subjects for it to be potent to some degree.

If we do away with symbols like these entirely in order to be politically wholesome; then we're fucked.

**coracle** · February-09-13, 10:21 AM

gazhekwe. I didn't claim to be free of stereotyping myself. I stereotype that group of people who are "holier that thou" and tell me how I should or shouldn't think in case I offend someone; but screw somebody offending me. [[isn't it called political correctness?)

**gazhekwe** · February-09-13, 10:22 AM

RE: Stereotypes against the Irish, cowboys, Vikings, Spartans. Regarding the suit under discussion, it was filed under the Elliott-Larsen Civil Rights Act, which affords specific protections against discrimination for religion, race, color, national origin, age, sex, height, weight, familial status, or
marital status.

In the case of the native stereotypes and sports mascots, this has been the subject of complaints by entire communities since the 1970s, and has been under continual investigation and negotiation.

If anyone wanted to file RE: Cowboys, that is an occupation, not a condition of birth.
RE: Irish, that is possible, should you wish to start or join such a movement, you would start by contacting like minded Irish people and notify the Department of Civil Rights of your concerns. You would have to demonstrate harm to yourself and others from said stereotypes.
RE: Vikings, and Spartans, similar to the Irish with the added burden of proving you are somehow connected to these historic groups.

Be ready for the process to take 40 years.

**gazhekwe** · February-09-13, 10:32 AM

This is not about individual people enjoying other cultures, canuck. This is about sports logos and mascots which are important image builders. When using stereotyped images of existing people in this way, significant harm has been demonstrated to the people in education, sports, employment and economic transactions.

**DetroitPlanner** · February-09-13, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by gazhekwe

Coracle, I happen to be Native and grew up in a world of stereotypes.

Wow with a name like that I stereotyped you as being Polish!

**gazhekwe** · February-09-13, 10:42 AM

gazhekwe? Anishinaabemowin word, means cat woman.

**gnome** · February-09-13, 11:42 AM

To me the most offensive sports team is the Washington Redskins. I don't know where to start with that one. But I will say, the NFL should have a bunch go really offensive mascots to make the point that honoring a people is completely different from defaming them.

i could think of a few like The Crackers, The Spades, The Faggy Frogs ...

On the other hand, if we are talking about indigenous people being stereotyped, that goes for every group everywhere.

the Vikings are indigenous and the Celts are too. The Scots are indigenous as are the Britons.

i can see a couple of sides to this. I can see overly sensitive folks being overly sensitive and I can see brutes being all Limbaughy. Moreover, does this proposed ban extend to private institutions? Norte Dame is private, but uses Federal funds in scholarships and grants....

**gazhekwe** · February-09-13, 12:21 PM

The state law under which the suit is filed does apply to private institutions open to the public.

With the Celtics, are there demeaning stereotypes used? With the Vikings? Were the Vikings an ethnic group or an occupation? What, if anything, about them is depicted in a demeaning fashion, and how would one distinguish that from the actual characteristics of people who were last known hundreds of years ago? Or can we show present day Vikings adversely impacted by stereotypes used by teams using that moniker? Ditto, Spartans.

**Wesley Mouch** · February-09-13, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by oladub

Ultimately, its up to Indians themselves to weigh in. ...

Fine theory, but in practice, Native bands are not always single politicl entities, so what really happens is that any one activist group of Indians can force a name changed -- even if the majority of bands are accepting of the name.

The CBC did a story on the Fighting Sioux of UND last year. The change was driven by a small group -- that the U just couldn't resist. Universities are so afraid of being 'racist', that they'll listen to the radicals, while ignoring the general feelings of the band.

This is much like Detroit. There are screamers about 'stealing out jewels'. Should we always listen to the screamers? Well, that's what seems to be happening on this issue. A small group of Indians screams. And the U jumps. And each time the U jumps, the screamers find something else. Its a feedback loop.

So short answer -- don't be so sure that many Indians aren't honored by the names. Always remember you're often only hearing the screamers.

**gazhekwe** · February-09-13, 12:47 PM

@Wesley, this is not a few screamers. The ones who are vocally opposing this are screaming, but they are not in the majority. This fight has been going on to clear stereotyping in our schools for many many decades, and the sports mascots are just a very visible symbol. Yes, many or our people have assumed these stereotypes and feel their identity as Indians is tied to this image. It is sad and so destructive. We cannot hold ourselves to unrealistic standards created by others. We have met all the conditions to establish a basis for this suit.

Listen, watch and maybe learn new things:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=i6TuTJcQ780

**canuck** · February-09-13, 01:10 PM

I am wholly sympathetic to the miseries of first nations and to the drudgery of court processes they have endured, gazhekwe. I just dot think "appropriating" the symbolism is necessarily evil, and I think that the harm suffered is not preponderantly due to these symbols. In fact, I think that reappropriation of these symbols by first nations has been sometimes enabled by the existence of these, in the non-indigenous world-at-large. The Mohawk communities in Northern New York, southern Ontario and Quebec have their warrior flag which is growing in popularity in the wider community.

It is funny how the Swastika has become an illegal symbol because of appropriation by the Nazis. It is understandable that the potency of symbols can be seen as a negation of community values. We see this in the other thread about the "Arbeit Macht Frei" banner at the Packard plant. The reaction goes wild at all ends of the spectrum and it all comes down to interpreting the meaning intended.

We are a world of symbols where Mr Clean fights with the Green Giant, Uncle Ben and Aunt Jemima for attention for good or ill, I dont know; but I like the nuttiness, lemme have my symbols. Let me reappropriate them. Let me see if I cant find some path to who I am in the superannuated symbols of yesteryear.

**gazhekwe** · February-09-13, 01:40 PM

Canuck said...reappropriation of these symbols by first nations has been sometimes enabled by the existence of these, in the non-indigenous world-at-large.

"Reappropriation" is a two-edged sword. Are we adopting something that the white society has played up inaccurately? Or are we going back in our own oral traditions and maybe supplementing with concurrent historic accounts by visitors, taking into account their cultural bias? And then there is that whole bit where kids have no real understanding of their own culture due to displacement, and adopt the stereotypes presented by mainstream society as a way of identifying with their lost culture. This happens much in urban settings, and where the education system has failed to give any positive cultural information or history of Native people. What else do these young people have to inform them?

These stereotypes may well be "superannuated symbols of yesteryear" to some, but in the Native world, they are misrepresentations of a deeply religious culture and misuse of sacred symbols.

Giving mainstream society all the credit for the Warrior Flag is completely ethnocentric. Do you really think Native cultures were so completely obliterated that no one but mainstream people could know about them?

**canuck** · February-09-13, 01:53 PM

I respect that the failure of our education systems to give the positive measure of Native people is a major fault to be corrected. I totally acquiesce, but I dont think that these symbols can be avoided or voided without consequence. I think we have to interpret them for what they are, their intent, their shortcomings.

I think that the reappropriation can be both or a mixture of both since these are open to the interpretation of the interpreter and the audience. We should not in any case just discard symbols because they are signs on the map of who we all are, collectively in our very imperfect countries.

**Gistok** · February-09-13, 02:50 PM

.... so much for my Mohawk Vodka... now I'll have to switch to Smirnoff....

**gazhekwe** · February-09-13, 03:15 PM

@Canuck, no one is demanding that legitimate symbols used respectfully be discarded. What is at issue here is demeaning stereotypes and inappropriately used symbols.

@Gistok, go ahead and drink the firewater, no one cares about that since they are not going "woo,woo,woo" and dancing around, nor are they at all anxious to incorporate any drunken Indian stereotypes. Again, at issue here is inappropriately used symbols and negative stereotypes.

I do happen to know what is at stake and the history of this lawsuit, having been on the receiving end of these stereotypes, as well as having spent a good deal of my career at Civil Rights as part of the team working on the issues with various school districts across the state.