New Arena could break ground by fall.

**detroitbob** · February-04-13, 12:01 AM

Great news...the face of downtown/midtown will be dramatically changed in 5 years...with this news and Gilbert's plans plus the M-1 rail project its going to be exciting to see it all move forward! Brush Park should benefit along with the area around Masonic to Grand River...

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...ground-by-fall

**Bham1982** · February-04-13, 12:04 AM

Hopefully these plans, if they're so amazing, will be built without taxpayer assistance, so that the region and state don't mess with Detroit's forthcoming "jewels". No money for schools, and we need to cut every facet of govt., but the welfare train for bazillionares is stronger than ever.

**Gistok** · February-04-13, 01:07 AM

Interestingly one of the 3 sites has changed... it doesn't mention a site near MotorCity Casino... but instead the 3rd site is that triangle of land between Cass and Grand River [[south of I-75). If they did chose that site, it likely would mean that the arena would be standalone on that parcel... with the ancillary development east of Cass... behind the Fox. If they did choose that site, it would be nice if they did a Gem/Century type move of the Moose Lodge... since there is some deed restriction [[IIRC) about tearing that building down.

I'm sure that the Ilitch's have specific preferences for the site that they want... but the holdout landowners will determine which is the final site.

**emu steve** · February-04-13, 05:19 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Interestingly one of the 3 sites has changed... it doesn't mention a site near MotorCity Casino... but instead the 3rd site is that triangle of land between Cass and Grand River [[south of I-75). If they did chose that site, it likely would mean that the arena would be standalone on that parcel... with the ancillary development east of Cass... behind the Fox. If they did choose that site, it would be nice if they did a Gem/Century type move of the Moose Lodge... since there is some deed restriction [[IIRC) about tearing that building down.

I'm sure that the Ilitch's have specific preferences for the site that they want... but the holdout landowners will determine which is the final site.

I don't have much to add but it is amazing how much land the Iltiches have to work with [[including land which will end up being surplus land).

Which land parcels will host the arena, which parcels will have commercial development, which parcels will not be needed, which parcels will be forlorn for decades, etc.

To state that this will have a huge effect on the area and will end up redrawing the land use map is an understatement.

**emu steve** · February-04-13, 05:28 AM

One thought that does come to mind:

Put an arena in that area Grand River/Cass/Fisher and the MGM casino folks are very, very happy, I would think.

Always nice when your neighbors improve their properties.

Also, I could see a [[I know, hated) parking garage built at Clifford/Fisher/Montcalm with the garage serving both the arena patrons and those who want to go to Comerica. [[I assume that is now surface parking).

**kenp** · February-04-13, 09:06 AM

So they want to start in the fall but they dont have a location yet. They must know the spot.

**Gistok** · February-04-13, 11:28 AM

Something tells me that they're still in negotiations with landowners... which I believe will be the case until they finally announce a spot. They're still holding their cards to their proverbial vest so as not to drive up land prices even further nearby until they are done buying the land in their finally chosen destination.

I agree a Grand River site would be beneficial for both MGM Grand and MotorCity Casino [[in view up Grand River)... but especially for MGM. It could also make bookings for MGM shows more likely, since their "theatre" space in the casino is subpar [[also used as flat one level convention space).

**kryptonite** · February-04-13, 11:30 AM

thanks for posting that article detroitbob, what exciting news.

**emu steve** · February-04-13, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Interestingly one of the 3 sites has changed... it doesn't mention a site near MotorCity Casino... but instead the 3rd site is that triangle of land between Cass and Grand River [[south of I-75). If they did chose that site, it likely would mean that the arena would be standalone on that parcel... with the ancillary development east of Cass... behind the Fox. If they did choose that site, it would be nice if they did a Gem/Century type move of the Moose Lodge... since there is some deed restriction [[IIRC) about tearing that building down.

I'm sure that the Ilitch's have specific preferences for the site that they want... but the holdout landowners will determine which is the final site.

If the triangle site is chosen with the ancillary development east of Cass behind the Fox, then the land north of the Fisher is essentially left undeveloped and could be [[undeveloped) for a long time. [it would continue to be surface parking for Comerica Park].

I doubt that is what the Ilitches/Gilbert/Penskes, etc. want.

**Gistok** · February-04-13, 11:43 AM

How would that be any different from leaving the west Foxtown area as undeveloped? The entire process does NOT depend on what THEY WANT... but without Eminent Domain... it depends on which site has had the land needed all acquired. As we saw with the Riverfront Casino district... some speculators may be asking $20 million each for small parcels... which Ilitch will likely balk at.

**esp1986** · February-04-13, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

How would that be any different from leaving the west Foxtown area as undeveloped? The entire process does NOT depend on what THEY WANT... but without Eminent Domain... it depends on which site has had the land needed all acquired. As we saw with the Riverfront Casino district... some speculators may be asking $20 million each for small parcels... which Ilitch will likely balk at.

The good news is... while eminent domain is not possible at the city level, it IS possible at the county and state levels. This could be a big reason why the Ilitches are getting the state involved. The state can seize the land for the development without being subject to the law that Detroit voters passed.

That is the best case scenario, so we can have one cohesive development rather than a good development with a few oddball empty parking lots, whose owners held out for a windfall that never came then didn't have the capital to do anything on their own.

Based on the rumored prices of these properties, these owners won't get anywhere near that for a very long time. An arena will push the value up a bit, but it isn't likely to net them millions in three years so long as there are swaths of vacant land just a few blocks away.

**emu steve** · February-04-13, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

How would that be any different from leaving the west Foxtown area as undeveloped? The entire process does NOT depend on what THEY WANT... but without Eminent Domain... it depends on which site has had the land needed all acquired. As we saw with the Riverfront Casino district... some speculators may be asking $20 million each for small parcels... which Ilitch will likely balk at.

Agree. You and I are in complete agreement.

IF the arena is located north of the Fisher then the area behind the Fox is very problematic for future development.

Who would build behind the Fox when there is some really sweet land between the Fisher and Temple which the Ilitches control.

**bailey** · February-04-13, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

How would that be any different from leaving the west Foxtown area as undeveloped? The entire process does NOT depend on what THEY WANT... but without Eminent Domain... it depends on which site has had the land needed all acquired. As we saw with the Riverfront Casino district... some speculators may be asking $20 million each for small parcels... which Ilitch will likely balk at.

I would think that at this point, the land is secured. Why would there be any announcement if it wasn't? It's not like Illitch hasn't had 30 years to assemble the parcels. and it's not like it's been a surprise that the Wings were going to leave JLA.

I think it comes down now to what the City/state taxpayer is going to swallow as far as reorienting street grids and infrastructure. In other words its going to come down to how much in tax payer subsidy can a billionare extract to get his stadium built and what that number means to his bottom line. If it works out better for it to be insanely located near the casino instead of on Woodward...it'll be over by the Casino. Nothing about this or anything else illitch does has anything do with what is best for Detroit. The fact that Detroit gets something out of it is merely an ancillary benefit.

**bailey** · February-04-13, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by esp1986

The good news is... while eminent domain is not possible at the city level, it IS possible at the county and state levels. This could be a big reason why the Ilitches are getting the state involved. The state can seize the land for the development without being subject to the law that Detroit voters passed.

Emminent domain can not be used to benefit a private use as in with GM and Poletown.. There is nothing restricting a seizure [[after "proper" compensation) of property for public use or public necessity. I don't think there has been a challenge since the Sup Ct ruling regarding whether or not seizing property so a billionaire can house one of his hobby businesses is a "public use" or "public necessity".

**artds** · February-04-13, 12:43 PM

The Architecture firm the Illiches selected, HKS, are the ones who designed the new Cowboys Stadium

**artds** · February-04-13, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by esp1986

The good news is... while eminent domain is not possible at the city level, it IS possible at the county and state levels.

This is incorrect. Eminent domain is available to the city and state alike for public improvement projects. However, under Michigan law, land acquisitions for the benefit of private business owners, such as land acquisitions for stadium projects or manufacturing plants, no longer fall within this definition, regardless of the economic impact they will have on the community.

In other words, eminent domain will be in no way involved in construction of the new arena, aside from perhaps the acquisition of small amounts of private land for road widenings or security buffers around the stadium.

**Eber Brock Ward** · February-04-13, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by artds

This is incorrect. Eminent domain is available to the city and state alike for public improvement projects. However, under Michigan law, land acquisitions for the benefit of private business owners, such as land acquisitions for stadium projects or manufacturing plants, no longer fall within this definition, regardless of the economic impact they will have on the community.

In other words, eminent domain will be in no way involved in construction of the new arena, aside from perhaps the acquisition of small amounts of private land for road widenings or security buffers around the stadium.

However, if the stadium is being acquired for a stadium authority or that MEDC sub-agency, it would be eminent domain by a public entity.

Food for thought, considering the Crain's article a week or two ago about potential State involvement.

**bailey** · February-04-13, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by Eber Brock Ward

However, if the stadium is being acquired for a stadium authority or that MEDC sub-agency, it would be eminent domain by a public entity.
.

That is the issue that hasn't been litigated. Poletown decision says govt can't take from private citizen and give to private entity, even if the justification is that there will be a public good derived.. jobs, tax revenue..etc.

In light of that ruling, I don't think it would be crazy to argue that using a govt agency to build and hold a stadium for 100% private usage by one tenant is any different from just giving it to the private entity.

ArmDetroit · February-04-13, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by artds

The Architecture firm the Illiches selected, HKS, are the ones who designed the new Cowboys Stadium

They also designed Lucas Oil Stadium. I think the style of the oil can would be a better fit here rather than that gaudy monstrosity in Dallas.

**Spartan** · February-04-13, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by ArmDetroit

They also designed Lucas Oil Stadium. I think the style of the oil can would be a better fit here rather than that gaudy monstrosity in Dallas.

Went to Lucas Oil for the B1G Championship game and it is a very nice arena. I'm definitely encouraged that the same architects would be working on one here.

**emu steve** · February-04-13, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by ArmDetroit

They also designed Lucas Oil Stadium. I think the style of the oil can would be a better fit here rather than that gaudy monstrosity in Dallas.

I think we can safely assume Ilitch's ego is not anything like Jerry Jones', whose ego knows no bounds.

One of the 'collateral' issues we aren't speaking is about college basketball games being played at the new arena.

**Eber Brock Ward** · February-04-13, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

That is the issue that hasn't been litigated. Poletown decision says govt can't take from private citizen and give to private entity, even if the justification is that there will be a public good derived.. jobs, tax revenue..etc.

In light of that ruling, I don't think it would be crazy to argue that using a govt agency to build and hold a stadium for 100% private usage by one tenant is any different from just giving it to the private entity.

I would encourage you to re-read the Hathcock decision again [[http://www.michbar.org/opinions/supr...3004/24048.pdf).

I haven't read it in years, but I do recall that ownership of the property was almost, but not quite, a dispositive fact. The court held that the condemnation passed test after test until it got to the public use test, and then focused heavily on the proposed transfer of the property to the public entities.

Who knows what would happen with the current composition of the court, of course, but a stadium authority/state-owned arena with a series of leases to the Wings, Olympia, the Pistons/Palace Sports[[?), various independent concert promoters/the circus/whatever, would almost certainly pass muster under a Hathcock-style interpretation of the law.

Almost certainly, though.

**ElbertHanks** · February-04-13, 02:15 PM

A new stadium might see some college basketball games. But Ford Field kicked off the current practice of football stadiums hosting the Final Four. So I wouldn't expect an arena to see much college play. Maybe some Big Ten stuff or even an NCAA regional.

The target for this facility is obviously the concert business which currently flows to the Palace. You have to figure much of the decision making will revolve around how to make this facility more attractive to concert patrons than the Palace. I would guess having restaurants, bars, condos, apartments offices and retail within walking distance is a huge selling point. Which probably explains the Illitches' seemingly new found interest an entertainment district. Fine with me. I don't care as much about the motives as I do about the results.

**rb336** · February-04-13, 02:20 PM

more HKS designs:

and from the NBBJ team:

**Gistok** · February-04-13, 02:57 PM

Well we don't know whether or not Ilitch has all the land he needs... in the west Foxtown area there are the 5 empty parcels [[near Columbia and Clifford) owned by the Alibri heirs... that have been holding out since they sued to get it back from the Stadium Authority back in the 1990s. And there's another landowner on the north side of W. Adams that owns about 4 or 5 parcels. Then there's the C.C. Bar owners and of course the Film Vault Building owners.

As far as north of the Fisher... isn't there a Cab company that owns a large parcel that wanted something like over $20 million for their land? I won't speculate beyond that...

As far as Eminent Domain goes... the Aerotropolis proposal around Metro Airport sort of died when the county tried Eminent Domain on their land... and lost in court.

I do NOT think that an Arena or a Stadium counts towards a "public use"... or else Ilitch would have had the city/county/state try that option... instead of him buying all the property in a slealthy manner.

Also, the reason for state ownership... is so that Ilitch won't have to pay property taxes on the Arena... just as he and Ford don't have to pay it on the county owned Comerica Park and Ford Field.