The National Review on Naziism

[rb336]

Nazism may have been an ideology to which the United States was — and to which the president is — implacably opposed, but it is hardly “senseless.” By the early 1930s, the Nazi party had hundreds of thousands of devoted members and repeatedly attracted a third of the votes in German elections; its political leaders campaigned on a platform comprising 25 non-senseless points, including the “unification of all Germans,” a demand for “land and territory for the sustenance of our people,” and an assertion that “no Jew can be a member of the race.” Suffice it to say, many sensible Germans were persuaded.

Can they make it any clearer?

[JBMcB]

They were not defending Naziism in the piece, and skewing an excerpt to accuse them of doing so is despicable.

Disclaimer: I don't regularly read the National Review, and I could care less about them.

[noise]

They were not defending Naziism in the piece, and skewing an excerpt to accuse them of doing so is despicable.

Disclaimer: I don't regularly read the National Review, and I could care less about them.

In effect, they were defending Nazism. They were defending it against an accusation from President Obama that it was senseless. Sure, it had more to do with opposing anything the President says, but it was endlessly reckless and embarrassing.

[rb336]

They were not defending Naziism in the piece, and skewing an excerpt to accuse them of doing so is despicable.

Disclaimer: I don't regularly read the National Review, and I could care less about them.

Sorry, but I find no context in which saying the Nazi platform assertion that "no Jews can be a member of the race" made sense is acceptable. And that is EXACTLY what they said.

The right's psychopathic hatred of Obama has led to an endless stream of this sort of stupidity

[JBMcB]

Sorry, but I find no context in which saying the Nazi platform assertion that "no Jews can be a member of the race" made sense is acceptable. And that is EXACTLY what they said.

Exactly, which is why you need to read the rest of the rather small article. The context is that, in dismissing an act of violence as senseless, you imply that no sense can be made of it. That the actors involved are merely crazy, and their motives and rationale are incomprehensible.

This is, of course, nonsense, which is the author's point.

The author is implying that Obama is deflecting analysis of the perpetrator of the atrocity at Sandy Hook's motives to push his gun control agenda.

Again, read the article. The only way you come away from it inferring that she is pro-naziism is if your world view is pre-warped by your own prejudices.

[rb336]

Really? sorry, but there is nothing in that short article that justifies what I quoted. Further, the entire article is an incredibly bad straw man argument, made, it seems, because the right wing is so psychotic they can't help but be anti-Obama, even if it means making the case that the Holocaust was sensible instead of an act of criminal insanity

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...hnson#comments

[noise]

Exactly, which is why you need to read the rest of the rather small article. The context is that, in dismissing an act of violence as senseless, you imply that no sense can be made of it. That the actors involved are merely crazy, and their motives and rationale are incomprehensible.

This is, of course, nonsense, which is the author's point.

The author is implying that Obama is deflecting analysis of the perpetrator of the atrocity at Sandy Hook's motives to push his gun control agenda.

Again, read the article. The only way you come away from it inferring that she is pro-naziism is if your world view is pre-warped by your own prejudices.

You, like the National Review, are defending Nazism against your own misunderstanding of the word "senseless" due to your blind hatred of President Obama. Senseless can mean stupid or foolish and not incomprehensible.

Take a step back before posting. Or consult a dictionary.

[oladub]

I read the article and couldn't make sense of what the author was trying to say. Perhaps it was because she was using the wrong words as has been previously mentioned in this thread. The article, consequently, did a poor job of bashing Obama if that was its goal.

I don't think that Obama is anti-Jewish. One could make the case that his recent giveaway of 20 F-16's and 50 tanks to the Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt, supported by every Democratic senator and over half of Republican senators, is a threat to Israelis but Obama's horrible foreign policy mistakes don't necessarily equate with a hatred of Israel. Besides, with the debt ceiling increase, he can still give the same things to Israel too.

Had the author instead linked Obama with corporatism [[economic fascism), instead of Nazis and Jews, she would have been on the money. National socialism included corporatism but corporatism does not necessarily include the atrocities committed by the National Socialists. The problem that neocon Republicans have is that almost anything they say about Obama with regards to corporatism and Obama would also apply to the likes of Bush and Romney.

Review quiz essay question-
After reading this article, is giving the leader of a country the power to assassinate citizens outside of a battle zone without judicial review, no checks or oversight of any kind, zero transparency, and zero accountability more akin to corporatism or national socialist policy?

[Papasito]

... it had more to do with opposing anything the President says, but it was endlessly reckless and embarrassing.

I don't really understand why the Nazis don't like Obama, after all, they are both Socialist and Left Wing radicals. Well, maybe it's his skin color and that he [[Obama) won't openly condemn Israel.

The right's psychopathic hatred of Obama has led to an endless stream of this sort of stupidity

...While the Democrats give him a pass after failed promise after failed promise!
Promised 3.5 million new jobs, lost over 7 million.
Promised Guantanamo closed, never happened.
Promised and end to Middle Eastern wars, we're still there.
... the list goes on and on [[it's very very long).

So what did you make of the "Left's psychopathic hatred" of Bush? Justified? Grats. Everyone's a psycho!!

[rb336]

Papa, take a remedial history course, please.

[Papasito]

Are you trying to argue the point on whether or not Nazis were left or right wing, or whether or not they were/are Socialists?
Or just taking a lame jab?

[rb336]

The Nazis were NOT socialists the way we understand it today, [[AKA Swedenism) and were NOT left wing. The very first people the Nazis got rid of were the real socialists - even before they actually took power. Once in power the first group they went after were the unions, then the indigent. Fascism was based on private ownership and initiative to the benefit of the State. They funneled cash to the industrialists [[yes, these industrialists existed to further the Reich, or else they would got buh-bye) and used extreme force if there was any hint of labour unrest. "Oh - but they have the word "socialist" right in their name!" you say. That is, in the end, the SOLE argument you have. Hitler wanted it to be "Sozialrevolutionare" - social revolutionary.

I would liken Nazism to an industrial feudal system -- yep, run your business, but if you aren't supporting the Reich, you are a traitor and will be disposed of like an errant thane.

I suggest you try to actually learn something instead of letting Faux News and talk radio fill your head with utter stupidity. I suggest you read Konrad Heiden's A History of National Socialism. Further, I would read a biography of Gaetano Salvemini [[who argued that fascism was "privatization of revenue and socialization of losses" ) and the works on fascism by Mussolini.

[oladub]

“Tom Wolfe's biting essay on American intellectuals also summarizes the origins of Fascism and Nazism rather well. Here is one excerpt from it:

"Fascism" was, in fact, a Marxist coinage. Marxists borrowed the name of Mussolini's Italian party, the Fascisti, and applied it to Hitler's Nazis, adroitly papering over the fact that the Nazis, like Marxism's standard-bearers, the Soviet Communists, were revolutionary socialists. In fact, "Nazi" was [[most annoyingly) shorthand for the National Socialist German Workers' Party. European Marxists successfully put over the idea that Nazism was the brutal, decadent last gasp of "capitalism." “
_______
“Contrary to the Marxists, the Nazis did not advocate public ownership of the means of production. They did demand that the government oversee and run the nation's economy. The issue of legal ownership, they explained, is secondary; what counts is the issue of CONTROL. Private citizens, therefore, may continue to hold titles to property -- so long as the state reserves to itself the unqualified right to regulate the use of their property.”
Leonard Peikoff

_______________________

Some Fascist sounding quotes:

"Freedom is about authority. Freedom is about the willingness of every single human being to cede to lawful authority a great deal of discretion about what you do and how you do it." -Mayor Giuliani, New York Newsday pg A3 4/20/98

"State authority must provide for peace and order, and peace and order in turn must conversely make possible the existence of state authority. Within these two poles all life must now revolve...Ideas of 'freedom,' mostly of a misunderstood nature, inject themselves into the state conceptions of these circles". -Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf

"We must stop thinking of the individual and start thinking about what is best for society." [Hillary Clinton, 1993]

"If there's a way of doing it voluntarily, that's more consonant with the American character," he said. "If you can't solve the problem without the government stepping in, that's when you make it mandatory." -Barack Obama http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...546302,00.html

[rb336]

One further thing, would a socialist government privatize its arsenals, as the Nazis did [[including Spandau)?

[noise]

I don't really understand why the Nazis don't like Obama, after all, they are both Socialist and Left Wing radicals. Well, maybe it's his skin color and that he [[Obama) won't openly condemn Israel.

...While the Democrats give him a pass after failed promise after failed promise!
Promised 3.5 million new jobs, lost over 7 million.
Promised Guantanamo closed, never happened.
Promised and end to Middle Eastern wars, we're still there.
... the list goes on and on [[it's very very long).

So what did you make of the "Left's psychopathic hatred" of Bush? Justified? Grats. Everyone's a psycho!!

Knock it off with the ignorant, hateful rhetoric. Take it to the Det News comments page, where idiots believe this junk.

Obama is neither a socialist nor a left wing radical. Far from either, unfortunately.

[oladub]

Knock it off with the ignorant, hateful rhetoric. Take it to the Det News comments page, where idiots believe this junk.

Obama is neither a socialist nor a left wing radical. Far from either, unfortunately.

President Obama is into redistribution as are socialists but it is more correct to say that Obama is a corporatist than a socialist; corporatism being the polite name for ‘economic fascism’. Obamacare, for instance, is a corporatist program containing elements of socialism. It enriches corporations and attorneys [[corporatist policy) while extending some free medical care to the poor [[socialist policy). ‘Economic fascism’ is a very specific and limited type of fascism not necessarily involving all the horrible things associated with broader fascism or the specific ‘national socialist’ variety associated with Hitler. Hayek did observe that there is a tendency for ‘economic fascism’ to metastasize into more voracious varieties of fascism. Roosevelt , for instance, was a corporatist leader who admired Mussolini’s reforms but did not similarly lead the US to its total destruction. The US was able to largely recover from Roosevelt’s corporatist policies.

Obama has, however, exhibited some dictatorial ambitions and tendencies beyond mere corporatism. He suggested treating his opposition as enemies, campaigned in 2007 to create a domestic police force as well funded as the military, has purchased about 1.8B rounds of ammunitions for domestic agency use for reasons many don’t understand [[this would lend itself to an interesting thread), helped overthrow a government by executive order, legislated as an executive and has recently advocated and sought out ways to go around Congress and the Constitution when he doesn’t get his way. He has been acting as if Congress passed an enabling act. So, no, Obama isn’t so much a socialist as he is a corporatist with some expressions Congress should keep in check.

[Papasito]

Obama is neither a socialist nor a left wing radical.

LoL .. this comes from probably someone who thought Bush and McCain were "Radical Right Wingers" .. when both of them were centrist, and compromised routinely with Democrats. They were weak on the Border, language and culture. They were weak Conservatives. McCain was labeled the "Democrats favorite Republican" until he dared to run for President, when the Democrats demonized him until after the election.

Oladub pretty much laid out a good description of some issues with Obama.
The problem is - his voters don't hold him accountable when he lies and doesn't follow through on his promises. When you constantly close your eyes or make excuses for your party's leaders, you end up with the results of what you've closed your eyes to the entire time [[and our country pays the price).


It's the problem with modern politics.
We used to pride ourselves on our country having different parties, different philosophies and different visions for the country. Many countries don't have the luxury of opposing views within the Government.
Through the politicians themselves and through the media they have trained you and me to demonize the opposing party to the point we see them to be more dangerous than an invading army. They have tried to make us oversensitive and offended when we hear things that don't embrace their agendas. They have pressured us into thinking Government is always right, or Government is always wrong... and of course the Government that is "wrong" is always the Government of the opposing party.

The best thing we can do is go with the people we find closest to our own ideals and values as individuals, but hold their feet to the fire when they lie, cheat, don't do their job properly, fail to run the country properly, fall short of their promises, and deteriorate our freedom.

[rb336]

Really? when two gentlemen who were formerly considered extreme conservative outliers by their own party think the party has gone too far to the right, well, that is saying a lot. and the party has only gotten more and more extreme since Goldwater and Dole said that

Ola's comments are typical Ola bullshit - stuff that has been discredited dozens of times here before, in case you weren't paying attention

[oladub]

Really? when two gentlemen who were formerly considered extreme conservative outliers by their own party think the party has gone too far to the right, well, that is saying a lot. and the party has only gotten more and more extreme since Goldwater and Dole said that

Ola's comments are typical Ola bullshit - stuff that has been discredited dozens of times here before, in case you weren't paying attention

I missed the post about anybody promoting the Republican Party. Which post? If I misquoted someone, please specify.

rb, I know you think presidents should have their own wars, especially if they are Democrats, based on whimsical and imaginative takes on vague UN resolutions and that you think that the unending high unemployment, corporatist policies, devaluations, incarcerations of Japanese Americans, and involuntary servitude opportunities of the Roosevelt era were ok. I don't because I think fascism, which is what this thread that you started is about, is repugnant. It is ironic that you support these things and I don't.

[noise]

LoL .. this comes from probably someone who thought Bush and McCain were "Radical Right Wingers" ..

Nice try, but that's 100% untrue.

You're still spewing incorrect, ignorant, and hateful rhetoric. Grow up.

[Papasito]

Please. You're obviously dealing with brain matter issues if you don't remember the Left blasting Bush and McCain as Radical Right Wingers. What rock were you living under? Or do you have selective amnesia?

Bush:

• http://archive.democrats.com/display.cfm?id=225
• http://www.democraticunderground.com...ss=439x2489672
• http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...-zealot-312966
• http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...far-right-wing
• http://www.rightwingwatch.org/catego...le/george-bush

McCain:

• http://www.rightwingwatch.org/catego...le/john-mccain
• Get your John McCain Right Wing Radical Bumper Sticker!! http://irregularnews.com/JohnMcCainR...ngRadical.html & http://www.cafepress.com/nogop2008.50987705
• http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archive...s-john-mccain/
• http://thinkprogress.org/economy/200...ain/?mobile=nc

Maybe it's not that you have selective amnesia.. maybe it's that you are uninformed, and enjoy hurling immature insults at people?

When I see hilarious statements like:

The right's psychopathic hatred of Obama has led to an endless stream of this sort of stupidity

I am thinking
Pot, meet Kettle.

Fascism was based on private ownership and initiative to the benefit of the State.

With the modern day Statist movement led by our dictator in chief, and you being the "history buff" that you are, you maybe could see the writing on the wall that a growing, controlling, oversized and unfundable Federal Government that is operating beyond it's Constitutional powers is dangerous to freedom and America in general.
The first 2 things the Nazis did was 1. Take over Health Care, 2. Take the guns away from the people. Sound familiar?

Adolf Hitler and other proponents officially portrayed Nazism as being neither left- nor right-wing, but syncretic. The Nazis or National Socialists were very fiscally left-wing on nearly all issues. Adolf Hitler was a Socialist, and not a radical "Right Winger".

[rb336]

Nice try, but that's 100% untrue.

You're still spewing incorrect, ignorant, and hateful rhetoric. Grow up.

unfortunately, I believe he is incapable of that

[rb336]

Please. You're obviously dealing with brain matter issues if you don't remember the Left blasting Bush and McCain as Radical Right Wingers. What rock were you living under? Or do you have selective amnesia?

The difference is that those charges were actually true. [[in general, although some of the specifics in the links were pure BS)

Show me ONE radical left policy implemented by Obama

[noise]

Please. You're obviously dealing with brain matter issues if you don't remember the Left blasting Bush and McCain as Radical Right Wingers. What rock were you living under? Or do you have selective amnesia?

Bush:

• http://archive.democrats.com/display.cfm?id=225
• http://www.democraticunderground.com...ss=439x2489672
• http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...-zealot-312966
• http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...far-right-wing
• http://www.rightwingwatch.org/catego...le/george-bush

McCain:

• http://www.rightwingwatch.org/catego...le/john-mccain
• Get your John McCain Right Wing Radical Bumper Sticker!! http://irregularnews.com/JohnMcCainR...ngRadical.html & http://www.cafepress.com/nogop2008.50987705
• http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archive...s-john-mccain/
• http://thinkprogress.org/economy/200...ain/?mobile=nc

Maybe it's not that you have selective amnesia.. maybe it's that you are uninformed, and enjoy hurling immature insults at people?

When I see hilarious statements like:

I am thinking
Pot, meet Kettle.




With the modern day Statist movement led by our dictator in chief, and you being the "history buff" that you are, you maybe could see the writing on the wall that a growing, controlling, oversized and unfundable Federal Government that is operating beyond it's Constitutional powers is dangerous to freedom and America in general.
The first 2 things the Nazis did was 1. Take over Health Care, 2. Take the guns away from the people. Sound familiar?

Adolf Hitler and other proponents officially portrayed Nazism as being neither left- nor right-wing, but syncretic. The Nazis or National Socialists were very fiscally left-wing on nearly all issues. Adolf Hitler was a Socialist, and not a radical "Right Winger".

You need to reread what you posted. You accused ME of saying those things. You quoted my words and said, "LoL .. this comes from probably someone who thought Bush and McCain were 'Radical Right Wingers'".

If you can't even remember your own argument, why should anyone listen to you? Obviously, you're "dealing with brain matter issues" that make it possible to believe that ignorant rhetoric.

[G-DDT]

My two cents in on an old thread: Paul Von Hindenburg, Houston Stewart Chamberlain, Oswald Spengler, Arthur Moeller van der Bruck -all conservative-all were major influence on the Nazi party.
Many of the creators of the Nazi party in Germany may've been whacky new-agers, artists, and wild idealists, but it shows how the line between earnest devotion and fanaticism is all too brief. Anyone can come up a full 180 degrees turn around in ideology when under even the harshest of desperate times [[and with enough post-war or disaster-based trauma affecting them and God knows what else maybe influencing them in the background-just read "Psychiatrists-the Men Behind Hitler" by Thomas Roder-some of these guys were Thule all the way. I mean, why was Manson put into a cell with a Scientologist?). English Rock Opera artists like Pink Floyd, Bowie, and the Who knew all too well how an idealist artist can turn into an egotistical tyrant figurehead, and it bothered them enough to depict that in their works. So, artist puts down culture and picks up a revolver. Look at Dennis Miller. Better still look at the guys in this country who supported Nazism-Ford, Hearst, Dulles, Disney-all wealthy [[mostly anti-unionist) industrialists. Then you had guys like Shaw [[disgusts me that there are many liberals who support eugenics without seeing the strategies of the racism and limiting of the lower classes that many of the conservatives would support)...Anyway, how Nazism began, through the Night of the Long Knives to what we all got involved fighting obviously mutated greatly.
I see folks today in this country getting their whole view of politics being shifted and re-labeled in such a way, they really don't know what to grist is "liberal" or "conservative". I'll give you a hint, it doesn't involve homosexuality, abortion, the environment, fighting a disease, hedonism, or uncensored arts. Where money exists, there the push for upper tax cuts thrive. I'm sure any wealthy trendy boutique owner in any "liberal" college town will seem "liberal" and outspoken against Republicans...and don't expect a beer-chugging, Molly-scarfing bi-sexual college boy d-bag date rapist spring break partier to be any different.