Would Detroit benefit from my crazy right-wing pipe dream?

[Detroitnerd]

Just letting off a little steam after all this nonsense proposed for Detroit today.

[canuck]

I think it's a great idea. What's in that there pipe-o-yours Dnerd?

[Detroitnerd]

I don't think I can dream up anything crazier than the things being proposed these days. I mean, there have always been anti-democratic tendencies in American thought, but the stuff being proposed today is beyond the pale. And the implicit chauvinism behind a lot of this crap is disgusting. It's one thing to admit that the situation in Detroit is bad. Real bad. It's quite another to stand out in one of the most heavily subsidized places in history, the tony suburbs, and then rail against an underfunded city as not having the sense to run itself well, and then to propose taking away democracy, rights, liberties that the critic himself would never give up. Hypocrisy, I believe they call it.

[canuck]

Well, I have to agree with you on that. Notice that for a militia or vigilante groups to exist, you need to add the not so secret ingredients of; more guns!

Gunz are fun. Who funz hem?

Its hard to imagine that the only cure for the violence and despair in Detroit's ghetto is more guns. It may put a smile on the nobel geniuses at the NRA to think of how many more bullets will fly over Woodward though, who daffuck knows?

[Shollin]

I don't think I can dream up anything crazier than the things being proposed these days. I mean, there have always been anti-democratic tendencies in American thought, but the stuff being proposed today is beyond the pale. And the implicit chauvinism behind a lot of this crap is disgusting. It's one thing to admit that the situation in Detroit is bad. Real bad. It's quite another to stand out in one of the most heavily subsidized places in history, the tony suburbs, and then rail against an underfunded city as not having the sense to run itself well, and then to propose taking away democracy, rights, liberties that the critic himself would never give up. Hypocrisy, I believe they call it.

LOL suburbs most heavily subsidized places in history. I'm no republican, but some of the left wing rhetoric is also amusing.

[Detroitnerd]

LOL suburbs most heavily subsidized places in history. I'm no republican, but some of the left wing rhetoric is also amusing.

What? Did you guys lay all them roads yourselves? Might there have been some federal subsidies?

Keep turning a blind eye, Shollin.

It's not called left-wing rhetoric.

It's called American history.

[gameguy56]

LOL suburbs most heavily subsidized places in history. I'm no republican, but some of the left wing rhetoric is also amusing.

Who do you think pays for the expansion of roads, sewers, powerlines, and general infrastructure out in the far exurbs?

[nain rouge]

I do think many Republicans fail to appreciate just how subsidized the suburbs are. Who do you think pays for all the new roads, pipes, sewers, and etc.? Most of the costs have been rolled up into our nation's $16 trillion or so in debt - as well as the state of Michigan's $75 billion debt. In many ways, the suburbs have spent money just as wastefully as our city centers. However, because many of the nation's power brokers reside in the suburbs and loath the diversity of cities, they've structured the system to shield many suburbs from the financial burdens of the incredible infrastructural costs that the suburbs have incurred.

That said, Detroit has had billions upon billions of dollars thrown at it by the state and federal government, too, and has been very wasteful. But we need to remember that we're all guilty.

[nain rouge]

Our governmental leaders know that as long as they push the debt incurred by wasteful spending high enough up that more affluent areas can be shielded from the effects, most voters won't question the bloat. That way, private developers can continue to line their pockets with government pork and send kickbacks to their well-connected friends, many of whom are politicians.

[Shollin]

Who do you think subsidizes the people mover, the rail line, the stadiums, the building demolitions, the DIA, the tax breaks for Dan Gilbert.

I also forgot Detroit has dirt roads and no plumbing.

[Goose]

That said, Detroit has had billions upon billions of dollars thrown at it by the state and federal government, too, and has been very wasteful. But we need to remember that we're all guilty.

and yet the only solution that the left doesn't think is "crazy" is to "throw more money at it"........

[Detroitnerd]

Who do you think subsidizes the people mover, the rail line, the stadiums, the building demolitions, the DIA, the tax breaks for Dan Gilbert.

I also forgot Detroit has dirt roads and no plumbing.

Such "subsidies" [[many of which are actual taxes approved by the people paying them) are a mere fraction of the monies spent to keep the suburbs running. Since after World War II, the suburbs have been the beneficiaries of lavish subsidies never before seen on the face of the Earth.

[Gistok]

Such "subsidies" [[many of which are actual taxes approved by the people paying them) are a mere fraction of the monies spent to keep the suburbs running. Since after World War II, the suburbs have been the beneficiaries of lavish subsidies never before seen on the face of the Earth.

So you've never been to Europe?

[p69rrh51]

Yes we are all guilty, but not all the burbs are heavily subsidized. The suburb I live in has most of its tax money ripped out of its hands and wasted on projects all over the area while seeing very little in return. We hardly have any voice at any level of government but without us YOUR infrastructure would barely exist. Everyone hates having us around until we want to leave then the crying starts and its only because they want to keep our money!
I do like the finger pointing its so typical of both sides I could write the script before anyone answers.

[nain rouge]

Such "subsidies" [[many of which are actual taxes approved by the people paying them) are a mere fraction of the monies spent to keep the suburbs running.

Exactly! All over the country, semi-rural communities are being gifted immaculate six-lane roads, while our urban centers sit and rot. Where do you think the most money is going? And when money is given to cities, it seems part of the motive is to destroy the urban fabric/suburbanize the city. If you ask the State of Michigan to help improve a street wall or something, they'll laugh you out of Lansing. But if you ask the state for money to widen a freeway running through downtown, they'll trip over themselves to give you the funds.

and yet the only solution that the left doesn't think is "crazy" is to "throw more money at it"........

Please. The right loves to cut spending on other people, but if you come for their "entitlements", they scream bloody murder. "But we paid for Medicare!"

Guess what? We all pay taxes.

Just watch what would happen if the federal government stopped subsidizing the suburbs. The right would start calling for succession!

[Shollin]

Such "subsidies" [[many of which are actual taxes approved by the people paying them) are a mere fraction of the monies spent to keep the suburbs running. Since after World War II, the suburbs have been the beneficiaries of lavish subsidies never before seen on the face of the Earth.

My relatives in Sterling Heights had to pay a special assesment on their taxes when they brought in sewers and paved the street. Your hyperbole is amusing.

[Detroitnerd]

So you've never been to Europe?

I dunno, putting in place a system of guaranteed credit [[GI Bill), infrastructure [[interstate freeway bill), and then developing 32,000 square miles in the first 40 years alone [[1950-1990) is quite an achievement, requiring vast subsidies.

[Goose]

My relatives in Sterling Heights had to pay a special assesment on their taxes when they brought in sewers and paved the street. Your hyperbole is amusing.

yeah, and I paid an extra $75 per sq. assessment x6 for concrete sidewalk replacement... whos subsizing the other cost of this sidewalk?

sure we ALL pay taxes... some less than others....

[nain rouge]

Another thing: when you divest in urban centers and invest in suburbs, you promote stagnation. Cities are typically where major innovations are born, which suburbs then benefit from once the resulting companies become so large that a city is no longer needed to sustain operations.

Jane Jacobs summed this all up many decades ago. However, suburbs lose sight of this fact once enough major companies relocate outside the city limits, and just start worrying about protecting what's "theirs".

There's a reason this region hasn't really grown in the last 40 years and now appears to be backsliding.

[Hermod]

Who do you think pays for the expansion of roads, sewers, powerlines, and general infrastructure out in the far exurbs?

ummmm, as a wild guess, I would suppose that the same method used to build roads, sewers, power lines, and general infrastructure in EEV or Indian Village. Public roads are generally built by the taxpayers. Sewers are generally built by the sewer district and paid for by the users. Power lines are built by the electric company or rural electric co-op and paid for by the ratepayers.

[Shollin]

so all the freeways in Detroit weren't originally subsized? Paving all of Detroit's streets were subsidized? It's like people think the French landed in Detroit and all this infrastructure was in place.

[nain rouge]

READ THIS ARTICLE: http://www.mndaily.com/2011/10/10/st...dizing-suburbs

The existence of suburban and exurban communities is predicated on the abundance of cheap fuel, meaning gasoline. The suburbanization of America therefore has huge implications for our foreign policy. Many of our military expenditures are directed toward maintaining this cheap energy supply that suburban lifestyles require.

A study released earlier this year by the U.S. Public Interest Research Group found that since 1947, the amount of money the government spent building and maintaining highways, roads, and streets has exceeded the amount raised by all “user fees” combined, including gasoline taxes, toll roads, and motor vehicle taxes.

A second way suburbs are subsidized is through what’s known as the mortgage income tax deduction, which some have dubbed the “mansion subsidy.” This subsidy allows homeowners to deduct their home mortgage interest from the income taxes, which incentivizes building bigger houses, the room for which only exists in the suburbs.

Estimated at $100 billion annually, the mansion subsidy remains larger than the entire annual budget of the Department of Housing and Urban Development.


Mortgages are also heavily subsidized through federal insurance policies.

[nain rouge]

While cities do have major infrastructure costs, the increased density of taxpaying people puts such expenditures more within balance.

[Shollin]

Wait, so people can't deduct their mortgage interest in Detroit? So because people in Detroit are poor and living in section 8 housing and on food stamps that are subsidized by the suburbs, means that the suburbs receive more subsidizing?

[nain rouge]

Well, Shollin: Estimated at $100 billion annually, the mansion subsidy remains larger than the entire annual budget of the Department of Housing and Urban Development.

So there goes your section 8 bit, and let's be honest here: the mortgage on a McMansion is going to be a lot bigger than mortgage on Robinwood. And while more people in the inner city are more receiving food stamps than those in the suburbs, their infrastructure is often crumbling, while the infrastructure in the suburbs continues to receive generous federal- and state-level financing. And when a suburbanite retires, they're probably going to withdrawal more from Social Security than your typical urbanite.

But no, it's only those dang welfare drains wasting all our money!