Original People Mover Proposal

**Dexlin** · January-27-13, 03:58 AM

Does anyone know where I can find old maps and write-ups on the original, metro-wide People Mover proposal? I remember seeing a small map some years ago, but don't remember where. I've tried looking up the information, but can't find much.

**gnome** · January-27-13, 08:29 AM

Wsu virtual library has some early conceptual drawings.

i do recall the original plan was more of a big circle instead of the twisty, loopy thing we have now. I believe the alterations to the route were done to satisfy certain political friends of Mr. Young ... hence the massive cost overruns.

**jackie5275** · January-27-13, 12:50 PM

As I remember the People Mover was supposed to out from downtown along the spoke streets to the city limits & back. I guess money sent in a circle downtown.

**DetroitPlanner** · January-27-13, 01:40 PM

I can recall being a young planning student and finding the document at the Purdy Kressge Library. Don't know if it is still there. I do remember it was red and showed how the linkages were going to work with the Joe Louis station and David Whitney subway stop.

**Dexlin** · January-28-13, 02:30 AM

It's been my understanding from some general research that the federal government had put together a program to fund downtown circulators, and that the major requirement for getting funding was that they had to show how it would fit into either an existing rapid transit system, or how it'd fit into a planned one. Since Detroit didn't have an existing rapid transit system, at the time, SEMTA [[the system that eventually became SMART after DDOT broke off) had come up with regional system, but internal squabbling - and the lack of true powers given to regional transit authorities in Michigan, at the time - halted the plan. By this time, Reagan became president and had majorly cut the budget to the downtown circulator program by the feds. SEMTA still ended up building it, but sold it off to the city either very shortly after completion of it or before, because of the massive cost overruns. It's my understanding that while they presented a regional transit plan to the feds, they didn't ever really allocate any money for the plan outside the immediate People Mover, so it's not as if the People Mover ate up the money for the regional plan, because the regional plan ever only existed on paper to satisfy the feds to give them money for the People Mover. In essence, by the time it came to build the People Mover, the regional plan had largely been abandoned, and SEMTA went through with the People Mover, anyway, mostly to save face.

I'm not sure that the regional rapid transit system was to use the same technology or even the same mode of transportation as the downtown circulator [[People Mover), but I was interested in old maps showing the lines for the regional system that was to feed into the People Mover. Gnome, I tried looking at the virtual motor city collection, but found one picture, and it was some People Mover exec.

**gnome** · January-28-13, 06:54 AM

1974 artist rendering
http://dlxs.lib.wayne.edu/cgi/i/imag...tart=;resnum=5
http://dlxs.lib.wayne.edu/cgi/i/imag...6;viewid=45966

**downtownguy** · January-28-13, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by gnome

I believe the alterations to the route were done to satisfy certain political friends of Mr. Young ... hence the massive cost overruns.

As Dexlin points out, SEMTA was originally responsible for construction of the People Mover. It was supposed to cost about $100 million, but as overruns pushed the cost closer to $200 million, SEMTA, under so much criticism, began to balk at finishing the project. Coleman Young stepped in and offered to have the city accept responsibility for completion and cover any additional overruns. The project was completed by the city and there were no more overruns.

**gnome** · January-28-13, 04:06 PM

An interesting read from a December 1985 edition of the LA times, it contains a few facts I had forgotten:
http://articles.latimes.com/1985-12-...people-momover

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...074918,00.html

another love-letter from 1986, this time from Time.

**Chris Rohn** · January-28-13, 05:29 PM

Those articles being read, how long did the people mover actually take [[or is it still trying) to pay for construction costs?

**Gistok** · January-28-13, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by Chris Rohn

Those articles being read, how long did the people mover actually take [[or is it still trying) to pay for construction costs?

It was never the plan to pay off any construction costs... and a good thing too, because it was always in the red... which just about any public transportation system is anyway. This was mostly federal funding...

**iheartthed** · January-28-13, 07:16 PM

Has the DPM ever had anywhere near 35,000 riders in a single day?

**5speedz34** · January-28-13, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Has the DPM ever had anywhere near 35,000 riders in a single day?

According to Wikipedia, the average ridership in 2008 was about 7500 people per day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_People_Mover

The biggest problem with the People Mover is the fact that you can pretty much walk anywhere downtown in the same amount of time or less that it takes to get on it. That doesn't stop me from using though.

Ohh and here is one more link from Virtual Motor City of the artist's rendering: http://dlxs.lib.wayne.edu/cgi/i/imag...-UND-2]45966_2

If anyone is serious, I'm a WSU student and I'm at Purdy/Kresge quite a bit[[it's my library of choice after the Law School) I would be happy to look for the original plans/prototype if someone believes it's still there.

EDIT: I don't know if this link will work for everyone but a quick search for "Detroit People Mover" brought this up: http://proxy.lib.wayne.edu/login?url...ive&scope=site
I'm going to check it out tomorrow!

**Parkguy** · January-28-13, 09:22 PM

As I recall, much of the cost overrun was from the new construction technology they used, which is a pre-stressed formed concrete. I think that is the same system they used when they built the Zilwaukee Bridge, and they had the same kind of problems manufacturing the guideway sections for the PM as they had on the bridge. Hairline cracks, I think. They had to replace a bunch of the sections.

[[Sorry, I just looked at the LA Times article, that gives this info.)

**5speedz34** · January-28-13, 11:38 PM

Somewhat related: This appeared in December 15th, 1921's copy of the Detroit News. http://detroitnewsarchivist.tumblr.c...ge/25102437441

**Dexlin** · January-29-13, 07:06 AM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Has the DPM ever had anywhere near 35,000 riders in a single day?

Yeah, during the Superbowl week back in 2006, and I'm sure it gets pretty close during the auto shows. But, again, the People Mover is a small downtown circulator that has to be part of a larger system for it to ever get close to meeting its potential. It wasn't meant as a transit system unto itself. A larger system is meant to feed into it, that is to say someone coming in on rail from outlying areas, and hitting it from/transfering from whichever spoke you came in on to wherever else you needed to go downtown.

Without the regional feeder system, there was no other use for it than what it became: an elevated tourist trolly getting people from their hotels to the convention center and workers to wherever their parking lot was.

**DetroitPlanner** · January-29-13, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by Dexlin

Without the regional feeder system, there was no other use for it than what it became: an elevated tourist trolly getting people from their hotels to the convention center and workers to wherever their parking lot was.

One of the reasons why the Rosa Parks Center was put where it was is to take advantage of the people mover. I have not seen studies, but my assumption would be that many of the riders transfer buses, but not many transfer to the people mover.

**schulzte** · January-29-13, 04:10 PM

This is an ugly diagram, but has there been any talk of a physical transfer station between M-1 rail and the People Mover? I hope they figure something out, it seems like it would enhance the utility of both.
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**Knightmessenger** · January-30-13, 12:31 AM

Wow, I've always wanted to know more about the history of the People Mover. I recently found a youtube video taken on the train in 1987, the year it opened.
http://youtu.be/MGv8bTQTnCI
Of course there's a number of differences you can see in the video from what the view looks like today.
-Berms in front of the Ren Cen
-The train goes really close to Hudson's even though it closed 5 years before.
-Cobo expansion is not complete. The track was built first and then enclosed by the new part of Cobo later.
-It looks like the Lodge freeway is also being expanded but it's hard to tell.
-There's a circular ramp to roof parking that no longer exists by the river entrance of Joe Louis Arena.
-550 W Jefferson [[sorta pink with green windows) does not exist which is strange since it is directly connected to the Financial station.

This seems as good of a place as any to mention I was so interested in finding out more about why the metro wide rail system never got built that I decided to focus on mass transit for a documentary in 2007 for one of my film classes at Wayne State.
http://youtu.be/wxuBrDuzowc

I probably should have posted here since it looks like people know a lot of the history.
Does anyone know why the particular route for the people mover was chosen? Were any alternates considered? Was it always supposed to be one way with over 10 stations in a small area? Why not go closer to the district court on Madison [[now across from the Gem) or to the Detroit Edison building [[now by MGM Grand)? Why put the Bricktown stop so close to Greektown and not closer to the Blue Cross building? When it was determined that the rest of the light rail would not be built, was it ever considered to have the train cover a wider area such as the new center or the DIA like M-1 will at last?

hope that wasn't too much to take in or answer.

**DetroitPlanner** · January-30-13, 10:46 AM

The Lodge was not expanded. There was work done to it around 1980 when Joe Louis was built but that consisted of reconfiguring the ramps and the pedestrian crossings. What you see is the rear addition [[Western) onto Cobo. Cobo hall was expanded to the North and West, and there were many meeting rooms added to the Washington Blvd side.

The district court on Madison did not exist when the people mover was planned. It was in the Wayne County Courthouse. Edison Plaza was always out of the way, and including it on the route would have been expensive.

I mentioned a red book I read at the Purdy Kressge long ago. It has many of the planning alternatives in it.

The people mover was never going to go up to New Center. However there was improvements planned along all spokes in conjunction with it. None of those improvements were ever done [[until now with M-1 moving forward).

ArmDetroit · January-30-13, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

The people mover was never going to go up to New Center. However there was improvements planned along all spokes in conjunction with it. None of those improvements were ever done [[until now with M-1 moving forward).

The Cadillac Center stop is on Gratiot, Grand Circus on Woodward, Times Square on Grand River, Fort/Cass on Fort, and Michigan on... Michigan. It's set up perfectly for another mass transit system to feed into it.

30 years later the DPM is finally starting to make sense... to me anyways.

**Wheels** · January-30-13, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

The people mover was never going to go up to New Center. However there was improvements planned along all spokes in conjunction with it. None of those improvements were ever done [[until now with M-1 moving forward).

Not true according to this.

http://drcurryassociates.net/expansionroute.html

ArmDetroit · January-30-13, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by Wheels

Not true according to this.

http://drcurryassociates.net/expansionroute.html

Yes, because CoPa and Ford Field were already mapped out in the original planning of the people mover. What you found there is called wishful thinking.

**rsa.313** · January-30-13, 03:18 PM

i know that the Cadillac Center station was planned to be a part of the Farbman Mall downtown that would've connected Hudson's and Crowley's, and instigated the demolition of the Kern's block. Obviously, by the time of construction, the entire plan fell through, but the name and location of the station remained.

Two other neat clips in the video are the Hudson's sign on the tower, which was not removed until Hudson's completely vacated the building in 1990, and the Landsdowne ferry restaurant moored by Cobo.

Thanks for the share; this is more the Detroit of my childhood.

Originally Posted by Knightmessenger

Wow, I've always wanted to know more about the history of the People Mover. I recently found a youtube video taken on the train in 1987, the year it opened.
http://youtu.be/MGv8bTQTnCI
Of course there's a number of differences you can see in the video from what the view looks like today.
-Berms in front of the Ren Cen
-The train goes really close to Hudson's even though it closed 5 years before.
-Cobo expansion is not complete. The track was built first and then enclosed by the new part of Cobo later.
-It looks like the Lodge freeway is also being expanded but it's hard to tell.
-There's a circular ramp to roof parking that no longer exists by the river entrance of Joe Louis Arena.
-550 W Jefferson [[sorta pink with green windows) does not exist which is strange since it is directly connected to the Financial station.

This seems as good of a place as any to mention I was so interested in finding out more about why the metro wide rail system never got built that I decided to focus on mass transit for a documentary in 2007 for one of my film classes at Wayne State.
http://youtu.be/wxuBrDuzowc

I probably should have posted here since it looks like people know a lot of the history.
Does anyone know why the particular route for the people mover was chosen? Were any alternates considered? Was it always supposed to be one way with over 10 stations in a small area? Why not go closer to the district court on Madison [[now across from the Gem) or to the Detroit Edison building [[now by MGM Grand)? Why put the Bricktown stop so close to Greektown and not closer to the Blue Cross building? When it was determined that the rest of the light rail would not be built, was it ever considered to have the train cover a wider area such as the new center or the DIA like M-1 will at last?

hope that wasn't too much to take in or answer.

**DetroitPlanner** · January-30-13, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by Wheels

Not true according to this.

http://drcurryassociates.net/expansionroute.html

How could this be the original plans for the people mover? It contains things that were not even on the books until a few years ago. It looks like someone's pipedream. Problem #1. It links to the people mover at a place without a stop!

**professorscott** · January-30-13, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by Knightmessenger

Was it always supposed to be one way with over 10 stations in a small area?

No. The original plan was for a two-way loop, with the counterclockwise trains vertically separated from the clockwise trains, so you'd have one loop above the other. The company who promoted that idea was no longer in that business by the time the system was constructed. The overall range of the system, though, is what was originally planned, with minor tweaks.

Originally Posted by Knightmessenger

When it was determined that the rest of the light rail would not be built, was it ever considered to have the train cover a wider area such as the new center or the DIA like M-1 will at last?

No, and it wouldn't have been possible due to funding and the overall Federal process.

Answering someone else's question about M1 Rail: it absolutely is planned to have a stop convenient to one of the people mover stations.