Shooting in Warrendale

[Patrick]

Where are all the fathers?

[trstar]

so Robert Bobb runs the City now?

No Chief of Police,
No Mayor.
No President of the City Council.
No School Board Superintendent.

Just the emergency financial manager of the Detroit City Schools.

Damn. Talk about a leadership vacuum.

[Meddle]

so Robert Bobb runs the City now?

No Chief of Police,
No Mayor.
No President of the City Council.
No School Board Superintendent.

Just the emergency financial manager of the Detroit City Schools.

Damn. Talk about a leadership vacuum.

Those are politicians, not law enforcement [[yes, even the Chief). There would be no reason for any of them to comment on this or be involved in any way.

Point of contact should be the Precinct Commander.

[trstar]

7 school children shot in a single incident demands SOME response from the leading elected officials. Not the DPS emergency financial manager. Whats next, the assistant DOT shift supervisor will offer free bus rides to the injured students?

[vetalalumni]

... Barnes was suggesting, that gun owners should be singled out and forced to reach into their pockets and compensate the victims of criminals. That's not fair. So because I own a deer rifle, I should have to pay when some gangbanger in Detroit busts a cap in someone's ass?

Agreed this would appear to be unfair. Insured automobile owners [[in Detroit) are singled out and forced to reach into their pockets and compensate the victims of automobile theft through higher premiums.

Every time a Detroiter commits a crime in the suburbs, Detroiters will have to pay to compensate the victims. Sound fair?

Unfairly, and due in part to stratification, every time a Detroit resident commits a crime in the suburbs [[or in Detroit for that matter), virtually all Detroit residents do pay in various ways.

Or is it only fair when you aren't part of the group being singled out for collective punishment becuase of the misdeeds of a few?

Can you say tax avoidance?

[vetalalumni]

The problem is with the parents.

Possibly the largest factor, but most certainly not the only one.

[ZRX Doug]

Agreed this would appear to be unfair. Insured automobile owners [[in Detroit) are singled out and forced to reach into their pockets and compensate the victims of automobile theft through higher premiums.


Unfairly, and due in part to stratification, every time a Detroit resident commits a crime in the suburbs [[or in Detroit for that matter), virtually all Detroit residents do pay in various ways.


Can you say tax avoidance?

Dude, you need to pull your head out and get a breath of fresh air before the brain dies completely..
Your first example [[insurance) is based on the reality of insuring a vehicle in a high-risk area. Insurance is a gamble on the ins companies part..if the odds they will have to pay off a claim are stacked against them, of course the cost to buy into the game will increase at that table..the house ain't in business to LOSE money, ya know?.
[[Before you ask, I live in the city and currently own/insure five vehicles here.)

Second example.."various ways?" WTF does that even mean? Is this one of those intangible Monica Conyers "your face doesn't look like my face, ergo you must be one of those scary Detroit criminal" things?

What you are proposing is a straight-up tax upon law-abiding citizens based on the criminal acts of others.
It's ridiculous, it's BS, and it makes me damned glad the state has no idea what's [[legally) stored in my gun safe..

[Fnemecek]

I've been scanning this thread reading posts about needing more Police, blaming the Mayor, etc.
...

The problem is with the parents.

Parents who don't raise their off-spring properly are definitely a problem. I mentioned this above, but it bares repeating: as far as I'm concerned, the parents of the 3 individuals involved deserve to have jail cell right next door to their sons.

But first, we need to catch them.

And then requires us to have a functioning police department, which is unfortunately missing in Detroit.

The fact of the matter is that the police exist to protect the rest of society from the result of crappy parenting.

[barnesfoto]

I have noticed that several of our gun hugging friends like to compare firearms with airplanes, so I too will compare firearms and airplanes.
When airplanes are involved in the death of people, families recieve compensation from the airlines. So when firearms are involved in the death of people, why would victims not recieve compensation from the firearms industry?
When religious fanatics used airplanes to kill several thousand people a few years back, there were significant increases in the insurance costs associated with aviation, and on top of that, there was a dramatic increase in the scrutiny of people licensed to fly airplanes and a dramatic increase in the screening of passengers.
Nobody screamed "You're not going to take away my airplane tickets!"
Charleton Heston did not denounce the obligitory removal of shoes, or the increased costs to airlines.
There was no outcry from the NRA about anybody's rights being compromised; perhaps in a rare moment of lucidity, they recognized that adjustments had to be made to increase public safety.[[Or perhaps they simply are an organization that pretends to be interested individual rights, but really is interested in the profit margins of arms manufacturers).
Yet here we have a situation that repeats itself weekly. Automatic or semi automatic handguns are easily obtained by criminals who use them to hurt maim or kill a large number of people, and any suggestion that it is too easy for thugs to obtain such weapons, or that an industry that mass produces such weapons needs to pay more taxes and insurance is met with hysterical shrieking.
Products that generally are harmful to human beings always come with higher taxes and insurance costs.
But not guns and ammo.
Special rights, anyone?

[ZRX Doug]

Apples & oranges. Again.
How do you manage to make it through life, with all these horrible companies & people that you don't even know bearing the full responsibility for your personal safety?

Airlines pay off because THEIR actions [[or lack of action) is directly responsible for their passenger's safety. The fact that some asshole uses a gun to shoot you is in no way the fault of ANYONE but the asshole who pulls the trigger.
The gun isn't evil.
The gun manufacturer isn't evil. [[even if it does manage to make profits, something which anti-gunners find abhorrent for some reason.)
Other gun owners who have nothing to do with the event are not evil.

One finger, one trigger, one choice..
One person bears the responsibility for their own action.

When someone punches you in the nose, is your first reaction to blame God [[or perhaps Darwin & the apes) for creating the human fist?

[reddog289]

I havn't been watching the news the last couple of days or read anything yet as far as I know, But what was the real motive behind this?. Big fights and rat packing happen everywhere,But this case firearms were involved. While it is very easy to blame firearms for things like this. I go back to what I what a former co-worker told me when I used to yell at my machines at my printing job." You are the animator of an inanimate object". That took me awhile to get, But I understand now what he ment.
People will always think things will be better if something is removed from society.Be it firearms, alcohol, tobacco, autos, and to extremes as whole races of people whom they don't like.
I happend to be home sick that day and the whole incident did not help the matter.But I hate to say it things like this will go on until something is done with the whole of society.

[barnesfoto]

Please post a link to any statements I made concerning evil. In your outburst of emotion, you seem to be simply making things up. [[It's both funny and sad how emotional gun huggers get about weapons and ammo).
Nobody has punched me in the nose for decades, because actually, I am responsible enough to stay an arm's length or more from swaggering thugs.
Speaking of swaggering thugs, why should such people have easy access to semiautomatic weapons? Any thoughts on the fact that angry religous extremists are no longer admitted to pilot training programs?

If it's apples and oranges, why do gun huggers post links to articles about airplane issues on the "Berserk Gunman of the Month" threads? I'm just trying to use a bit of your logic here!

[softailrider]

Where are all the fathers?

They already donated their sperm, was there anything else they were supposed to do?

[terryh]

Those kids are growing up in a pressure cooker. More cops [[who is going to monitor the cops) and harsh punitive laws arent going to alleviate the crime problem, liveable and fair wages along with easily accesible and affordable health care are what we should be passionately striving toward.

[crawford]

LOL, yeah, "fair wages" and better medical care are the issue. Just raise the wages at Wal Mart and include dental with the Medicaid and everything will be fine in the hood.

It wouldn't be the fact that there is an entire class of people that is entirely non-functional and guided by a culture of reflexive oppositional nihilism.

[vetalalumni]

They already donated their sperm, was there anything else they were supposed to do?

--- Sarcasm?

[WolverinesA2]

So when firearms are involved in the death of people, why would victims not recieve compensation from the firearms industry?

Um, because it's against the law?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9762564/

Congress passed a law three years ago that shields gun manufactures from lawsuits as a result of criminal use of firearms. I know, it sucks living in a representative democracy. Feel free to petition your representative in Congress to introduce legislation to overturn this law.

Products that generally are harmful to human beings always come with higher taxes and insurance costs.
But not guns and ammo.
Special rights, anyone?

Not special rights, BILL of Rights. The Supreme Court of the United States, just one year ago, unequivocally stated that the Second Amendment of the Bill of Rights grants an INDIVIDUAL RIGHT to own firearms. Would you like me to provide a link to the decision so you can brush up on your Constitutional rights?

You do not have a constitutional right to air travel, so your comparison is junk. Owning a gun is a constitutionally-protected right. That's not my opinion, that is the opinion of SCOTUS and thus the law of the land. Please respect it. And I am not a conservative or a Republican. I am liberal. I voted for Obama. I support his health care plan. I support Cap and Trade. I support ending the war in Iraq and closing Guantanamo. I am opposed to waterboarding. I am pro-gay marriage. I am liberal in every sense of the word. I support individual rights, even ones I DON'T AGREE WITH. That is where you and I differ. Much like Right Wing conservatives, you support taking away rights that you personally find distasteful.

As much as you want to ban guns or tax them into oblivion, you can't just line-item veto the Bill of Rights. You can't. If you want to restrict gun ownership or infringe on the ability of lawful citizens to own a gun, then amend the Constituion via the proper means [[2/3rds vote in Congress, ratification by 3/4th of state legislatures). To willfully ignore the Constitution and restrict a freedom to satisfy your own personal prefernces stinks of fascism. And don't say you're doing it to make people safer, because there is no evidence that it will.

[ZRX Doug]

Please post a link to any statements I made concerning evil. In your outburst of emotion, you seem to be simply making things up. [[It's both funny and sad how emotional gun huggers get about weapons and ammo).
This whole topic concerns evil acts..or do you not consider the shooting of seven kids to be "evil?" If you don't feel such things are "evil" [[or "bad," or "wrong," YOU pick the adjective) then why the hell do you seem to care so much about them?
Quit the dancing with semantics, dude..it makes you look infantile.
The difference between us is that you wish to place the responsibility for these acts upon the shoulders of people [[and companies) who are NOT in any way to blame.
I'm neither "emotional" or a "gun hugger." I own some firearms, yeah..each of them is simply a tool built to do a job. I'm no more "emotional" about one of my target rifles or my home defense shotgun than I am about the wrenches in my tool box. I get emotional when some asshat [[guess who?) speaks of punishing ME because of someone else's failure to use their tools responsibly.

Nobody has punched me in the nose for decades, because actually, I am responsible enough to stay an arm's length or more from swaggering thugs.
Very forward-thinking of you, I salute you. Let's say for the sake of the argument that some non-swaggering non-thug manages to pierce your awesome defensive radar and hangs a right hook on your snout..who will you blame? Who will you expect to pay for any damages?

Speaking of swaggering thugs, why should such people have easy access to semiautomatic weapons?
Because they make it a hell of a lot more likely that I'll nail both clay pigeons in the set rather than just the first one..
FWIW, the "semi-auto" fear is unwarranted..gimme a bolt-action rifle and I'll put as many rounds as it can hold on target MANUALLY in under ten seconds..ditto for a revolver or pump-action shotgun.
It would behoove you to fear ALL firearms if that's your mindset..ain't a one of 'em that won't kill you dead if the person holding it is thinking that way..your use of the term "semi-automatic" in such an ominous manner speaks volumes of your actual knowledge of the subject.
Are you equally frightened of cars with automatic transmissions?


Any thoughts on the fact that angry religous extremists are no longer admitted to pilot training programs?
Me, I don't think angry religious extremists should be permitted to breathe. What's your point?

If it's apples and oranges, why do gun huggers post links to articles about airplane issues on the "Berserk Gunman of the Month" threads? I'm just trying to use a bit of your logic here!

Sorry, I'm not familiar with the threads you're speaking of..but your comparison to airline crashes/insurance/lawsuits is "apples and oranges" because of one very simple thing.
When a plane crashes, it's due to a failure of either the equipment [[SUE THE MANUFACTURER!) or the people using it [[SUE THE AIRLINE!).
When a murderer shoots someone, there IS no failure..the equipment did what it was designed to do [[place a projectile in a given target at the design velocity), and the shooter did what HE intended to do.
The gun manufacturer isn't responsible for the intent of the shooter, only that their product fulfills its design claims..the blame is the shooter's alone.

If I were to beat you with my baseball bat, would you blame Louisville Slugger? Or other people who own bats? How 'bout I intentionally hit you with my car..will you sue Dodge for MY actions?

[barnesfoto]

"If I were to beat you with my baseball bat, would you blame Louisville Slugger? Or other people who own bats? How 'bout I intentionally hit you with my car..will you sue Dodge for MY actions? "

Thanks for mentioning cars; Because cars, when misused, are capapble of causing injury or death, you may have noticed that besides being required to pay into an insurance pool, car owners are also bound by certain regulations; If that wasn't enough, besides the requirements that you take a test and hold an insurance policy, you are not allowed to drive a formula 1 race car on 1-96. This law is in place despite the fact that you may be a "trained car owner". A reasonable person would argue that you don't need a formula 1 race car to get to work; an extremist would denounce this an act of "car grabbing" and would launch a tirade about the violation of your "rights", and how no limits should be place upon the type of car one is able to drive on 1-96.

Perhaps you have cursed the number of irresponsible car owners whose actions [[speeding, reckless driving, talking on cell phones while driving, DUI, racing, etc) cause your insurance to cost more. Have you written your lawmakers to denounce this horrible injustice? Is there a national organization that denounces the unjust requirement that responsible car owners help cover the costs of less responsible car owners?

Are some people, given their level of irrsponsiblity or the fact that they are insane, actually denied the rights to operate an automobile?

Finally, to address the "apples and oranges" argument, there are almost daily incidents of stray bullets fired by irresonsible gun owners killing people.Try googleing "stray bullet kills" and see how many results you get.
In my old neighborhood, for example there was, a few short years ago, a rash of cases of stray bullets fired by irresponsible gun owners flying through walls and windows and killing people's children, and while I certainly did not excuse the behavior of the "irresponsible gun owners" [[who were surely "responsible gun owners" until they weren't) I couldn't help wonder why no insurance funds were available to the victims, and why the dealer who sells guns to criminals was not also held responsible.

Do you have any examples of Louisville Sluggers tossed by careless baseball players flying through windows and killing people? Or "stray fists" thrown by carelss fist owners flying through windows and killing people's children? How about "stray knives flying through windows and killing people
No?

Well then perhaps you are comparing apples and oranges. There are certainly cases of stray automobiles killing people, but that's why car owners are required to purchase insurance. So why should gun owners be exempt from paying into an insurance pool again? Can you say "Special Rights"?

[WolverinesA2]

Well then perhaps you are comparing apples and oranges. There are certainly cases of stray automobiles killing people, but that's why car owners are required to purchase insurance. So why should gun owners be exempt from paying into an insurance pool again? Can you say "Special Rights"?

You do not have a constitutionally-protected right to drive a car. You DO have a constitutionally-protected right to own a gun. So says the Supreme Court. Why are you having so much trouble understanding that?

Name me ONE other constitutional right that I need to take out "insurance" on in order to exercise. Just one.

Everything you are asking for is blatantly unconstitutional. You sound like a Republican. "Give up these rights and we will guarantee increased safety and security." It's the same fascist rhetoric, you just want to take away a different right. You are no better than Dick Cheney, you both want to sacrifice freedom on the altar of "security."

[barnesfoto]

Shriek! Shriek! A gun hugger brings up planes, I compare regulations regarding planes vs guns. "NO NO,Shriek Shriek!" says another gunhugger! Apples and Oranges! A gunhugger compares cars and guns, and I compare the regulations of automobiles vs. cars. "Shriek Shriek! Cars and guns- apples and oranges" screams another gun hugger! Maybe you all should come up with a united argument on this! So let me get this straight- guns are like airplanes-no they are not.
guns are like cars- no they are not. Guns are just like fists and baseball bats-yeah, right.

Your right to OWNERSHIP is not being challenged. Your level of responsiblity-and the level of responsiblity of firearms dealers is. Sooner or later, that is going to change.

[ZRX Doug]

The only one doing any shrieking here is you, Barnes..once again, you've gotten lost in the hyperbole. Try responding to any of the points made.

[Hypestyles]

hopefully the perpetrators will be confirmed/found and put on trial..

[Blueidone]

All this talk of reasons why this happens...and no one sees the fact that when your life has no value, you see no value in anyone else's life. Generally those who commit these types of crimes are thugs who see no future for themselves other than being a thug. They know that the lifespan of a thug is short, even though they may think it won't happen to them.

The "doomsdayers" of the world go on and on about how either:
1. The economy is going to collapse in on itself and life as we know it will no longer exist;
2. The polar ice caps are melting and we are all going to be flooded off the face of the earth;
3. Global warming is going to kill all of us, shortly after we run out of fossil fuels;
4. The New Madrid fault line is going to cause a huge earthquake and sink us all into oblivion;
and last but not least...
Life is just like a video game...you can shoot people and they will either get up and walk away, or you will never suffer any consequences because you have the invincible code for the game and can't be touched.

Most of these kids have no "family" to lean on...their family is the gang. To be accepted in the family you have to perform certain tasks. Once you perform as you are supposed to, you are in the gang forever. Don't even think about trying to get out.

Sure there are the rare exceptions, but generally this is the way it is. This country has divided itself into only two groups...the haves and the have nots. The have nots have nothing to lose. The haves don't care what the have nots are doing, as long as they stay out of their neighborhood.

It makes me sad to see where this is all leading...I'm glad that I am 60 yrs old and won't live to see it deteriorate much further. I am afraid for my grandchildren and their children.

I don't know what the answer is...I see no clear cut path ahead. We can talk about solutions for the next 20 years...but until parents act like parents, kids listen to their parents and teachers and preachers and counselors; and until the economy is such that everyone can make a livable wage, this type of activity will keep on keepin' on.

[Linda from Detroit]

Well said. I couldn't agree with you more.