Increasing the effectiveness of programs that fight poverty

[laphoque]

I was reading about Street Medicine Detroit [[an apparent partnership between the NSO & WSU Med School), and I know about the Detroit Literacy Coalition, and places like Gleaners & Ruth Ellis. I appreciate what these programs do, but there is so much more to be done.

Can non-governmental organizations actually be an effective means to reducing poverty to the point where society becomes nearly crimefree?

How much money would it take to transform Detroit into a place more like Windsor: with a period of no murders for more than two years? What reforms could be implimented here to decrease poverty and could this happen while still encouraging the entrepreneurship and competition that drives prosperity [[out of ...opps schadenFreud.) in the free market?

[Honky Tonk]

I was reading about Street Medicine Detroit [[an apparent partnership between the NSO & WSU Med School), and I know about the Detroit Literacy Coalition, and places like Gleaners & Ruth Ellis. I appreciate what these programs do, but there is so much more to be done.

Can non-governmental organizations actually be an effective means to reducing poverty to the point where society becomes nearly crimefree?

How much money would it take to transform Detroit into a place more like Windsor: with a period of no murders for more than two years? What reforms could be implimented here to decrease poverty and could this happen while still encouraging the entrepreneurship and competition that drives prosperity out of the free market?

I think implementing STRESS would be an effective program to control crime in Detroit. Maybe non-govermental organizations could contribute towards such a program to rid the City of these lawless assassins? I have no idea how much money it would take to hire people that would be willing to put their life on the line to do such a job.

[gazhekwe]

The trouble with government programs, and I have seen many from the inside, is that they are limited. They have a stated mission, and they cannot go beyond that, they have reportable goals, and they must report them faithfully. The people working on the programs work to the reports, and that is very similar to working to the test in education. Somehow, if you have to connect 30 poeple a month with job opportunities, or 60, or 120, that is what you do.

[nickbii]

I think implementing STRESS would be an effective program to control crime in Detroit. Maybe non-govermental organizations could contribute towards such a program to rid the City of these lawless assassins? I have no idea how much money it would take to hire people that would be willing to put their life on the line to do such a job.

You do realize that STRESS was mostly cover for psycopathic serial killer Raymond Peterson, and that Detroit's crime rates actually fell when it was abolished?

[Honky Tonk]

You do realize that STRESS was mostly cover for psycopathic serial killer Raymond Peterson, and that Detroit's crime rates actually fell when it was abolished?

No, I've never heard that story. As far as crime rates falling and a direct correlation to the abolishment of STRESS, I'm going to need some proof that it's abolishment was actually what caused the crime rates to fall. Detroit's crime rates have always been a roller coaster, but always steadily climbing after a short lull. When you can't walk around in a pair of shoes of your choice, without fear of death, something isn't right.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

There are two distinct problems with most programs designed to fight poverty.
1) Instead of fighting poverty, they sustain it. Being on various forms of public assistance helps distance the individual from the need to take responsibility for one's self. This is true of unemployment, food stamps, WIC, etc.

2) Regardless of the effectiveness of said programs on either the individual or society, they never go away. As of 2010, there were 110 distinct federal anti-poverty programs. Curious how many people have been able to go off of assistance due to those programs.

Anti-poverty programs [[and I am not entirely opposed to them), in order to actually fight poverty, need to have the recipient be the leading player. To temporarily receive benefits, you need to get in/ stay in school. If you want unemployment, you're gonna spend 20 hours a week planting flowers & trees in a park, shovelling snow, mopping the floor in a local school, etc. You want welfare? You will take and pass a drug test first. Public housing? You will not have video games, cable television or air-conditioning [[all things many of us grew up without). Working and making your own way is an empowering part of the human condition. We have to stop keeping people down.

[Detroitnerd]

I think implementing STRESS would be an effective program to control crime in Detroit. Maybe non-govermental organizations could contribute towards such a program to rid the City of these lawless assassins? I have no idea how much money it would take to hire people that would be willing to put their life on the line to do such a job.

No matter how discredited STRESS was, no matter how many books and articles lay bare the history of this lawless police unit, no matter how many people they killed, fights they started, criminals they shook down, we still have a few holdouts who -- right in the middle of a discussion of POVERTY PROGRAMS -- propose we return to the bad old days of STRESS.

You really are a throwback, Honky.

[Honky Tonk]

No matter how discredited STRESS was, no matter how many books and articles lay bare the history of this lawless police unit, no matter how many people they killed, fights they started, criminals they shook down, we still have a few holdouts who -- right in the middle of a discussion of POVERTY PROGRAMS -- propose we return to the bad old days of STRESS.

You really are a throwback, Honky.

Why don't you take those killers to lunch 'Nurd, then after you can have a group hug and sing Cumbia? Channel your thoughts to the 3 dead men and ask them how they feel about STRESS.

[Detroitnerd]

Why don't you take those killers to lunch 'Nurd, then after you can have a group hug and sing Cumbia? Channel your thoughts to the 3 dead men and ask them how they feel about STRESS.

Ah, yes. If you're against STRESS, then you're a killer-coddler, or worse yet, a pansy. Heard it all before, Honk. STRESS was buried because the unit was full of lawless thugs who made more trouble than they solved. In the end, it was mostly supported by racists whites who'd gladly tear up the Constitution if it meant keeping "certain people" in their places.

And, frankly, this is the kind of issue that has no place in a serious discussion of ameliorating poverty, which is what the adults in the room are talking about.

[gazhekwe]

I am not sure what STRESS has to do with improving anti-poverty programs, but I am here to tell you, STRESS was scary as hell. I had to investigate a STRESS killing as one of my first civil rights jobs, not fun. They busted in and shot up a poker game being played by a bunch of off duty Wayne County Sheriffs, shot one of them who was holding up his badge in his raised hands. We can do better than that.

Better community contacts and better community relations is key for improving police effectiveness. STRESS achieved the exact opposite in its infamous two years of existence.

Now for anti poverty programs, what about jobs connections. A lot of young people need job skills. Schools are a logical place to start, with employers actively seeking to help develop and employ workers who can do what the employers want done. That could be high school, which would get a lot of the kids going who are most likely to drop out or get in trouble. Set them on a more positive path and make sure they can see and achieve the reward of a job where they will be welcome and can succeed.

[Honky Tonk]

I am not sure what STRESS has to do with improving anti-poverty programs, but I am here to tell you, STRESS was scary as hell. I had to investigate a STRESS killing as one of my first civil rights jobs, not fun. They busted in and shot up a poker game being played by a bunch of off duty Wayne County Sheriffs, shot one of them who was holding up his badge in his raised hands. We can do better than that.

Better community contacts and better community relations is key for improving police effectiveness. STRESS achieved the exact opposite in its infamous two years of existence.

Now for anti poverty programs, what about jobs connections. A lot of young people need job skills. Schools are a logical place to start, with employers actively seeking to help develop and employ workers who can do what the employers want done. That could be high school, which would get a lot of the kids going who are most likely to drop out or get in trouble. Set them on a more positive path and make sure they can see and achieve the reward of a job where they will be welcome and can succeed.

A John Telford excerpt was played on NPR this morning. He said there were "THOUSANDS" of Detroit kids NOT attending school. One of his goals was to get them back into school. What do you do with that? How do you get the word out when no one comes to listen? 3 productive young men were murdered this past weekend over the same nonsense that people have been getting murdered for in this City for close to 40 years now. What has changed? There are more Social Programs out there then you can shake a stick @, what are they changing? These criminals operate with no sense of remorse and no sense of repercussion. That's why it still goes on 40 years later.

[Detroitnerd]

Your point no good? Try changing the subject.

Pure DetroitYES!

[Richard]

I am not sure what STRESS has to do with improving anti-poverty programs, but I am here to tell you, STRESS was scary as hell. I had to investigate a STRESS killing as one of my first civil rights jobs, not fun. They busted in and shot up a poker game being played by a bunch of off duty Wayne County Sheriffs, shot one of them who was holding up his badge in his raised hands. We can do better than that.

Better community contacts and better community relations is key for improving police effectiveness. STRESS achieved the exact opposite in its infamous two years of existence.

Now for anti poverty programs, what about jobs connections. A lot of young people need job skills. Schools are a logical place to start, with employers actively seeking to help develop and employ workers who can do what the employers want done. That could be high school, which would get a lot of the kids going who are most likely to drop out or get in trouble. Set them on a more positive path and make sure they can see and achieve the reward of a job where they will be welcome and can succeed.

To me what Honky Tonk is referring to the correlation between poverty and crime.

A little story if I may,I have a friend from Holland who in her younger years was divorced with 2 children and no skills,the system there gave her a monthly stipend and provided day care while providing schooling ,she did not live well only enough to survive,she went to collage and became an attorney,she then was put on a repayment program to reimburse the system ,it worked quite well.

But then she married a high up at Philips and did not have to worry about a job,but anyways I agree that included in the "handouts" should also be a hand up to break the cycle as in training and education in a more forceful way.

But it also confuses me sometimes as I have acquaintances that own "collages" and they receive 90% of their funding from the gov to train those with no income or little skills,there is even a collage in Tennessee that educates those who do not have the funding or come from a poverty stricken situation at no cost.It is funded by donations and their past students that are now engineers and lawyers and etc.

So on the surface the opportunities are there but not being used on a larger scale ,most are because they are getting the funds anyways so why should they make an effort.

There are two different groups that come out of the same pot there are those who wish to succeed and want a different life and those who do not care one way or another and they surround the ones who want to succeed,how does one separate the two.

Right now it is stated 53% of the US population is on some kind of public assistance.

[gazhekwe]

RE: The schools as a service center for job skills and placement

If we could only get started, working the schools with the employers in the area, we could then show actual results, maybe then the eligible population would see the benefit of sending their kids to school, and attendance would improve. It could be win/win/win as employment improves due to cooperative training and placement, the community improves due to increased employment and better education, and the schools improve as they improve their results. Employers would get better entry level employees with respect for their jobs and their employer, and the employers would better respect the people they helped train to their own specs.

[Richard]

As part of a bigger picture I checked into acquiring a couple of closed schools from DPS,the idea was to have a primary and advanced training program in the crafts skills and trades , kinda like a knock off of the days when the schools had shop classes but more advanced.

Then you could take the ones that caused the most disruption or borderline and give them an option, they went to DPS in the morning and had the basic reading writing and math RRR, then they went the other half of the day learning a skill with transport back and forth.

From there and one step further they could then go into the workplace under a mentoring program.They did not like that idea and the schools sit on the demo list.

I had the same situation with the university and shared research giving the students the chance to bring the ideas into reality in the workplace kinda like a class room in the factory,they did not like that one at all.

There are private and public joint ventures all over the country,the university holds the patents and the company manufactures the product.

Gatorade is a prime example.

I am not sure if they were afraid I was going to cut into a piece of their pie or funding but what I was doing had nothing to do with their funding or would it have effected it.

Right now the funding is out there, but it only lasts as long as the next president so it is about short term results and not what is good for the country as a whole long term.

But it still amazes me the people that are shocked that this stuff happens,how do they grow up and not see it.

[nickbii]

@MikeyinBrooklyn:
That's great theory.

In Practice Denmark spends a lot more on welfare then we do, without requiring people to do busy-work to get it, and they have lower poverty then us.

Reality trumps theory every time.

The reason is that you've made a flawed assumption. You're assuming that welfare is so great that 100% of the people who ever go on it will refuse to do anything to get off it. They are living better then they could on it. This is simply not the case. If it was you'd have given up your job for Section 8, TANF, and SNAP long ago.

I'm, not saying there aren't assholes on the program, but assholes exist everywhere. Your political position as analogous to saying "Paris Hilton is an asshole who enjoys Apple Computer products, therefore we must abolish Apple Computer."

You can argue that we need to structure these programs so they're harder for lazy-bones to use, but many of your proposals seem to be poorly thought out at best.

For example, if I'm on welfare I'm on the bus. This means that it takes 45 minutes to an hour to get anywhere. If I have 20 hours a week at a random city park, and those 20 hours are spread over 5 days, that's about 6 hours I cannot use to hunt for a job. If those days are during the work-week that pretty guarantees I will never find a 9-5. If those 20 hours, OTOH, are a 6-hour weekday and two two 7-hour-days on the weekend it's probably physically imposible for me to get to said Park because buses are very un-reliable on the weekends.

Even assuming that welfare recipients can magically teleport to the work-site instantly the 20 hours themselves are a pretty strong barrier to finding new employment. I'd anticipate that a system like your would actually attract lazy people who don't want to work, because 20 hours a week for a welfare check is more lucrative then working a real job at minimum wage.

@HonkyTonk:
You just admitted that you don't know why we got rid of STRESS. Raymond Peterson was a member of that unit. He was charged with 9 murders. He's one of the only people ever found "not guilty by reason of insanity," in the state of Michigan. The unit was involved nine other suspicious Officer-Involved-Shootings, but it was impossible to figure out whether those were murder years after the fact. That's the reduction in crime I'm referring to.

STRESS did not reduce crime in 1971. It's elimination had no effect on the crime rate in 1972. But we know it actually murdered at least nine guys and probably more.

[rex]

eeh forget programs. They just need to give me boat loads of untaxed money and i'll create jobs. ::winks::

[Richard]

It is not hard to create jobs it is hard finding qualified help.

With the average age of a machinist between 55 and 60, the looming drain of experienced machinists could turn into a full-blown crisis if companies don’t step up recruitment efforts in high schools and colleges and promote manufacturing as a noble profession, according to global management consulting firm The Boston Consulting Group.A BCG report estimates up to 100,000 manufacturing jobs would go unfilled through 2020 if the shortage is not addressed.

http://www.coloradoan.com/article/20...40015/-1/rss04

That is 20,000 jobs right there in one category and they are not low paid jobs,can the city use those jobs?

[nickbii]

A little story if I may,I have a friend from Holland who in her younger years was divorced with 2 children and no skills,the system there gave her a monthly stipend and provided day care while providing schooling ,she did not live well only enough to survive,she went to collage and became an attorney,she then was put on a repayment program to reimburse the system ,it worked quite well.

What's interesting to me is that I can find nothing on the internet on the Dutch having a welfare system where you have to repay benefits. I can find their model is Social Democratic, and Social Democrats tend not to think of Welfare as a loan. They think of it as insurance you buy with taxes. The stuff I can find seems to indicate that Dutch Welfare payments appear in your bank account without you actually having to do anything for them [[including apply), and never have to be re-paid:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/03/ma...anted=all&_r=0

Are you sure she actually menat some bureaucrat in the Hague had an account with her name on it, which included every Euro that she'd received as a student and for raising her kids; all of which she had to pay back? Or did she mean she just had to pay back the student loans? Are you 100% sure she understood precisely what you meant by "repayment program," and didn't think you were talking about the massive tax rate she paid after graduation?

When dealing with Europeans you have to understand English is their second language. If you ask them about the complex workings of their government over dinner they probably aren't gonna fire up the Dutch-language version of wikipedia and then spend an hour translating complex legal and financial terms into English for you.

Hell, if I paid Dutch tax rates I'd probably say I'd more then compensated the state for all it's welfare, too. Not only does it make you stop talking to me [[and I find nobody wants to talk to the guy grilling them about economic policy), it guarantees you won't describe me as a loser to your friends and it's basically true.

So on the surface the opportunities are there but not being used on a larger scale ,most are because they are getting the funds anyways so why should they make an effort.

And if things like that scaled up to cover the entire state of Tennessee then the entire State of Tennessee would have a four-year college degree.

But things like that don't scale up. If you want everyone to have access to things that cost boat-loads of money you need taxes, period.

There are two different groups that come out of the same pot there are those who wish to succeed and want a different life and those who do not care one way or another and they surround the ones who want to succeed,how does one separate the two.

Right now it is stated 53% of the US population is on some kind of public assistance.

The 53% number is not precisely what you think it is. Some of those 53% receive farm subsidies. Others are seniors on Social Security or Medicare. Some are receiving school loans they'll have to re-pay. Many of the others are using something called the "Earned Income Credit" on their income taxes. You cannot get that if you are unemployed because unemployment is not earned income. It's more a government attempt to make retail-style wages livable without intervening in the private market by raising the minimum wage then a welfare program.

As for separating those who want to make it off welfare from those who do, in my experience the former category is minuscule. The problem is that a) the ones who are truly on the latter list are incredibly memorable, so if you meet one guy you remember him rather then the four who got off in six months, and b) people on the former list have very little room for error.

I'm a little bit above welfare recipients in monetary terms, but here's an example from my life. In Cleveland I take the Lee-Lakeshore bus every day. It goes by an H and R Block. So when my boss at H and R Block told me I needed to be at the Superior-Lakeshore office at 6:00 I figured out I could get there at 5:45 on a particular bus, and I could even take a longish [[1:15 or so) lunch between my first job and Block that day. I get there and I find out that office is Euclid-Superior, I need to go to a different office. If I had a car this would be a 15-20 minute ride, and I'm like 5 minutes late. But I'm on the bus, and the next one doesn't leave till 6:30, and it doesn't get there until at least 7:15. A mistake that would have made me look a little silly if I was rich enough to have a car almost got me fired. Strictly speaking it should have gotten me fired because it was made very clear that this meeting was mandatory, and I'd have been on time if only I'd bothered to punch the address into google instead of assuming I knew where Euclid-Lakeshore was.

If you deal with people who are actually poor you get conversations like this at least twice a month. Some of us are covering our butts to make ourselves look less like losers, but most aren't. It's very hard for a DC Bureaucrat to know who's in which category.

[nickbii]

That is 20,000 jobs right there in one category and they are not low paid jobs,can the city use those jobs?

This actually show you why the low-tax strategy the South uses means you get lots of low-wage jobs. If the City could re-vamp it's schools so that HS was five-year program resulting in an Associates, and make one of those programs training machinists, we could benefit from the shortage. But since the City has no money to do that, and doesn't actually control education [[that belongs to an independent School Board, which is, believe it or not, in worse shape then the City proper)...

That's Detroit's true tragedy. So many opportunities, but they all cost money.

[Sehv313]

When you can't walk around in a pair of shoes of your choice, without fear of death, something isn't right.

& Cartier Sunglasses, you'll even get killed for the knock offs

But the way to fight crime is through Unity, Education, Jobs & Business.

If there is no education, no jobs, and no store front places of business you have a lost community, and then add to the fact there is no unity..... now we have the present of many neighborhoods in Detroit

[Honky Tonk]

& Cartier Sunglasses, you'll even get killed for the knock offs

That's where the education part comes in.

[9mile&seneca]

My previous comment on STRESS: They went from a tactical use of decoys to stop street crime, to home invasion. I guess in the bizzaro[[No US Constitution) world, that's a logical progression. Did they run out of actual criminals?

[Richard]

[QUOTE=nickbii;360626]

What's interesting to me is that I can find nothing on the internet on the Dutch having a welfare system where you have to repay benefits. I can find their model is Social Democratic, and Social Democrats tend not to think of Welfare as a loan. They think of it as insurance you buy with taxes. The stuff I can find seems to indicate that Dutch Welfare payments appear in your bank account without you actually having to do anything for them [[including apply), and never have to be re-paid:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/03/ma...anted=all&_r=0

Are you sure she actually menat some bureaucrat in the Hague had an account with her name on it, which included every Euro that she'd received as a student and for raising her kids; all of which she had to pay back? Or did she mean she just had to pay back the student loans? Are you 100% sure she understood precisely what you meant by "repayment program," and didn't think you were talking about the massive tax rate she paid after graduation?

When dealing with Europeans you have to understand English is their second language. If you ask them about the complex workings of their government over dinner they probably aren't gonna fire up the Dutch-language version of wikipedia and then spend an hour translating complex legal and financial terms into English for you.

Hell, if I paid Dutch tax rates I'd probably say I'd more then compensated the state for all it's welfare, too. Not only does it make you stop talking to me [[and I find nobody wants to talk to the guy grilling them about economic policy), it guarantees you won't describe me as a loser to your friends and it's basically true.

Well that was back in 1996 I was 36 she was 43 so you would have to go back in history quite a bit and her knowledge and use of the English language was very clear the same as many foreigners are ,you pick these things up living in Orlando it is kinda of an international place,because of her husbands position the contacts here where we visited would be considered way upper crust and you might be surprised what conversations happen,because everybody is always comparing things in their respective countries,it was with the soccer league and Orlando was hosting the Olympics.

And if things like that scaled up to cover the entire state of Tennessee then the entire State of Tennessee would have a four-year college degree.

But things like that don't scale up. If you want everyone to have access to things that cost boat-loads of money you need taxes, period.

It is called taking the initiative if you do not make the effort it is not going to be handed to you. It was an example as to what is available and not being able to say I am poor I cannot afford a higher education.

I have a 98 year friend that has willed them $800,000 on his passing , how many tuition's do you think that pays,that's how that one works and it seems to work.

The 53% number is not precisely what you think it is. Some of those 53% receive farm subsidies. Others are seniors on Social Security or Medicare. Some are receiving school loans they'll have to re-pay. Many of the others are using something called the "Earned Income Credit" on their income taxes. You cannot get that if you are unemployed because unemployment is not earned income. It's more a government attempt to make retail-style wages livable without intervening in the private market by raising the minimum wage then a welfare program.

As for separating those who want to make it off welfare from those who do, in my experience the former category is minuscule. The problem is that a) the ones who are truly on the latter list are incredibly memorable, so if you meet one guy you remember him rather then the four who got off in six months, and b) people on the former list have very little room for error.

Sans medicaid and SSI you are still at 100 million receiving assistance.

How about collecting welfare in Puerto Rico then useing a families residence in New York city and collecting the same benefits then on top of all of that using another family residence in Orlando and collecting the exact same benefits,from three different situations,until recently hundreds of thousands were doing just that because the computers were not linked. Between that and what I see with these little convenience stores massive fraud is being allowed to slip by.he majority that know how to work the system far outweigh those who actually need it as a temporary means.

I'm a little bit above welfare recipients in monetary terms, but here's an example from my life. In Cleveland I take the Lee-Lakeshore bus every day. It goes by an H and R Block. So when my boss at H and R Block told me I needed to be at the Superior-Lakeshore office at 6:00 I figured out I could get there at 5:45 on a particular bus, and I could even take a longish [[1:15 or so) lunch between my first job and Block that day. I get there and I find out that office is Euclid-Superior, I need to go to a different office. If I had a car this would be a 15-20 minute ride, and I'm like 5 minutes late. But I'm on the bus, and the next one doesn't leave till 6:30, and it doesn't get there until at least 7:15. A mistake that would have made me look a little silly if I was rich enough to have a car almost got me fired. Strictly speaking it should have gotten me fired because it was made very clear that this meeting was mandatory, and I'd have been on time if only I'd bothered to punch the address into google instead of assuming I knew where Euclid-Lakeshore was.

Well I am "rich" enough to own a car but at age 51 I gave up the Jag 4 years ago,I own businesses and own properties in cities that are an hour apart ,I use the bus ,street car and bike and walk to where I need to go ,I located on a bus line with in walking distance of the street car and use delivery services when needed just like they did in the old days. I love it and I support public transportation so I also live it.

Yes people give me the uggg you ride the bus stigma thing and I laugh,but when I say I ride the street car then it is cool.Street cars are easier to promote then busses to non riders.

If you deal with people who are actually poor you get conversations like this at least twice a month. Some of us are covering our butts to make ourselves look less like losers, but most aren't. It's very hard for a DC Bureaucrat to know who's in which category.

I came out of the military in 1979 with a new wife and baby and a beat up 67 chevy truck moved to Orlando from VA without a dime got two full time jobs pumping gas and spent 6 hours a day with buses less then two for sleep,I tried for public assistance for baby formula only we could eat with a bag of rice.I was denied. A church helped and we returned the gift ten fold that first paycheck,I know exactly what it is like to be poor and not knowing where that next meal is coming from, been there and done that.

Getting back to the main crux of it all ,the thing that really saved my butt all these years was when I went to school I had shop classes that gave me the basic skills in electrician,plumbing,machine shop and carpentry. Those skills at the very minimum allowed me to put food on the table or make a few extra dollars to give my children something extra that base skill set lead me to be a contractor which proved to be quite well.

What is that saying "Give a man a fish he will eat for a day,teach him how to fish and he will eat for a life time"

Even though the system told me to screw off when I needed it I still believe in its original intent as a safety net because things happen in life ,but I strongly disagree with it being used as a way of life and it should be used in connection with education.

An example locally there would be with what they did with the bell building.

[nickbii]

Well that was back in 1996 I was 36 she was 43 so you would have to go back in history quite a bit and her knowledge and use of the English language was very clear the same as many foreigners are ,you pick these things up living in Orlando it is kinda of an international place,because of her husbands position the contacts here where we visited would be considered way upper crust and you might be surprised what conversations happen,because everybody is always comparing things in their respective countries,it was with the soccer league and Orlando was hosting the Olympics.

She must have been in on the very first edition of the Dutch Welfare state. It was only started in 1963.

Regardless, apparently it's changed a lot since then, she was remembering wrong, or you're remembering wrong.

It is called taking the initiative if you do not make the effort it is not going to be handed to you. It was an example as to what is available and not being able to say I am poor I cannot afford a higher education.

I have a 98 year friend that has willed them $800,000 on his passing , how many tuition's do you think that pays,that's how that one works and it seems to work.

That pays for about 10 people at the University of Michigan. That's tuition-only, not room or board.

How about collecting welfare in Puerto Rico then useing a families residence in New York city and collecting the same benefits then on top of all of that using another family residence in Orlando and collecting the exact same benefits,from three different situations,until recently hundreds of thousands were doing just that because the computers were not linked. Between that and what I see with these little convenience stores massive fraud is being allowed to slip by.he majority that know how to work the system far outweigh those who actually need it as a temporary means.

TANF is typically $300-$400 a month, "hundreds of thousands" has to be 200,000, each getting three TANF checks means $900 a month, that's total spending of $180,000,000. $180 mil times 12 is $2.16 Billion a year. At $400 a month and 350,000 you get $5 Billion. The total TANF budget is only $17 Billion. Moreover post-Clinton you actually have to physically meet your caseworker, near your official address, twice a year to get any benefits. This is kinda tough to do in FL, PR, and NY all at once.

So I'm gonna have to see a source for this contention.

I suspect "recently" is gonna turn out to be pre-Clinton's Welfare Reform, and "hundreds of thousands" is gonna turn out to be "hundreds or thousands."